Identify this engine

[Richard]

Engine is mounted vertically on a display base.

Picture 2 shows tapered tube. There are 9 such tubes located around the engine. Is this tube part of fuel delivery system?

Bonus Question: how did they manufacture the tapered tube? No visible seam to tell if the tube was rolled. But I can't imagine the tube was broached.

 

[gismo]

R-4360.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Engine is mounted vertically on a display base.

Picture 2 shows tapered tube. There are 9 such tubes located around the engine. Is this tube part of fuel delivery system?

Bonus Question: how did they manufacture the tapered tube? No visible seam to tell if the tube was rolled. But I can't imagine the tube was broached.

No idea, but here's a picture with the colors and such adjusted so it's easier to see the detail. Hope you don't mind; I did it for me so I could get a better look at it. Did you take the photo in an aircraft junkyard or something??

P.S.--I think Lance is right. See this: http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/061016-F-1234S-002.jpg

 

[Chache]

Bonus Question: how did they manufacture the tapered tube? No visible seam to tell if the tube was rolled. But I can't imagine the tube was broached.

Tube could be extruded, then tapered by hydraulic pressure in a tapered mold,
and finally bent into final shape.

At least that's how I'd imagine it done

 

[KennyFlys]

Twenty Cylinders???

Gosh, that has to be a heck of a tear-down for maintenance. I wonder how many are still flying. Anyone know?

 

[Tim]

If your talking about the tube centered in the second picture? That is the Ignition Harness. I don't know how it was manufactured it is like conduit. I think it may have been pressurized. Not too many left flying.

 

[gismo]

Twenty Cylinders???

Gosh, that has to be a heck of a tear-down for maintenance. I wonder how many are still flying. Anyone know?

Twenty eight. Fifty Six plugs. I forget how many magetos, but I think it's four.

 

[KennyFlys]

Twenty eight. Fifty Six plugs. I forget how many magnetos, but I think it's four.

Well, I hope I get an "A" for effort. I was figuring five rows around the engine with four cylinders each. I was way off by two rows. That's a crowded shaft!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Engine is mounted vertically on a display base.

Picture 2 shows tapered tube. There are 9 such tubes located around the engine. Is this tube part of fuel delivery system?

Bonus Question: how did they manufacture the tapered tube? No visible seam to tell if the tube was rolled. But I can't imagine the tube was broached.

It sounds like the quad radial engine actually and rightly known of as the "Behemoth".
The "tubes" are neither rolled nor extruded, they're grown and are actualy it's major arteries.

It parasytically fed on the blood of aeronautical professionals and airline owners, its main accomplices being symbiotic A&Ps.

 

[Richard]

Troy, thanks for your work.

Lance, how did you know?

I forgot about extrusion when I posted. Assuming they didn't have the extruding machines back then, I would go with pressing to a form.

I took the pic with the amazingly crappy camera in my cell phone. The engine is displayed in front of the terminal at KCCB Cable airport in Upland, CA. I don't know what this little GA aprt has to this big radial. San Bernadino to the east is ex-mil (11,000 rwy) and may have had B-36 and large transports. Chino to the south is the home of Planes of Fame Warbird Museum.

 

[Richard]

Kenny...and ONLY Kenny: why do radial engines always have an odd number of pistons per row?

Hint: a row of four just won't work.

 

[Tom-D]

Engine is mounted vertically on a display base.

Picture 2 shows tapered tube. There are 9 such tubes located around the engine. Is this tube part of fuel delivery system?

Bonus Question: how did they manufacture the tapered tube? No visible seam to tell if the tube was rolled. But I can't imagine the tube was broached.

It is a P&W 4360 which has 28 cylinders 4 rows of 7 cylinders each, each row has its own twin mag, which is presurized for high altitude cross fire protection as is the harness.

THe only ones that I knew that were flying were on the JRM (3000 HP) that the BC government had for fire fighting, I think they are no longer flying and are up for sale at Sprote Lake BC.

Sorry about the small gif pictures

but there are 8 brand new ones at the Mc Minville Or. on the Spruce Goose

Other wise known as the corn cobe engine.

Now, who can give me the formula for determing the fireing order of te P&W 4360?

 

[KennyFlys]

Kenny...and ONLY Kenny: why do radial engines always have an odd number of pistons per row?

Hint: five rows of four just won't work.

I'm just guessing here but... an even number could place two pistons in the same position in the stroke. This could possibly cause a seizure.

That's the only scenario I can come with. If I'm correct, I wonder if there had been any prototypes with an even number.

If I'm wrong, see avatar to the left!

I'm still curious if any of these are still flying. And, what bird were they in?

 

[Tom-D]

Engine is mounted vertically on a display base.

Picture 2 shows tapered tube. There are 9 such tubes located around the engine. Is this tube part of fuel delivery system?

Bonus Question: how did they manufacture the tapered tube? No visible seam to tell if the tube was rolled. But I can't imagine the tube was broached.

There are a bunch of them at Pueblo Co in the air Museum. They were primarily the B-29, and I think the B36 bomber engnes, but 12, F-4-U corsair were made with them installed, the marines had a few flying box cars with them also.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm just guessing here but... an even number could place two pistons in the same position in the stroke. This could possibly cause a seizure.

Not even close !!

A clue.

the firing order of my 7 cylinder radial is 1357246, they are numbered in the clock wise rotation looking from the rear (cockpit)

 

[KennyFlys]

Not even close !!

Go easy on me! I've barely seen radials up close but not beyond the cowling outside of pictures.

Ok, what's your explanation?

By the way, here's what I found on the web. At least I answered before looking. By the way, I still think what I said has something to do with it. With the firing orders, it's near impossible to have two cylinders fire simultaneously.

Q. Why does a radial engine have an odd number of cylinders?

A. Radials are built with an odd number of cylinders to give a better firing order and corresponding smoothness with lack of vibration. The accompanying illustration shows the firing order and cylinder numbering sequence for a typical 9 cylinder radial. You will notice that every other cylinder fires in order and that at the end of two compression stroke revolutions, the pattern repeats itself.

http://www.radialengines.com/faq_section/index.htm

 

[Tom-D]

Ok, what's your explanation?

http://www.radialengines.com/faq_section/index.htm

Read your refference, and look at my picture. think about how all the cylinders must fire in 2 revolutions in any 4 stroke engine.

point to the cylinders and see that the fireing order skips every other cylinder as you go around. it will work only in odd numbered rows, fire 1, skip 2, fire 3. skip 4, fire 5, skip 6, fire 7, skip 1, fire 2, skip 3, fire 4, skip 5, fire 6, skip 7, fire 1 and start over.

It will work on 5, 7, and 9 cylinder engines, now how do you get an even numberd radial? the 3350 Wright was a 18 cylinder engine.

 

[Tom-D]

OBTW did you know that the 4360 was TWO P&W 2800s placed on the same crankshaft?

 

[KennyFlys]

Read your refference, and look at my picture. think about how all the cylinders must fire in 2 revolutions in any 4 stroke engine.

point to the cylinders and see that the fireing order skips every other cylinder as you go around. it will work only in odd numbered rows, fire 1, skip 2, fire 3. skip 4, fire 5, skip 6, fire 7, skip 1, fire 2, skip 3, fire 4, skip 5, fire 6, skip 7, fire 1 and start over.

It will work on 5, 7, and 9 cylinder engines, now how do you get an even numberd radial? the 3350 Wright was a 18 cylinder engine.

That I understand. It states the odd firing is to provide smoother operation. The firing skips but the other cylinders are in other positions during the stroke; intake, compression and exhaust or somewhere along there. I'm betting a 28-cylinder engine has some very, very close firing.

But, what would be the result if you had two cylinders on the same row in identical positions of the stroke? I'm thinking it would be more critical on a smaller engine such as seven or nine cylinders. With 28 cylinders, there's always going to be a few very close to the same position in the stroke.

As far as your 18-cylinder question, it's two rows of nine. I saw the firing order on that one.

 

[Skip Miller]

Twenty eight. Fifty Six plugs. I forget how many magetos, but I think it's four.

Lance, seven magnetos, one at the front end of each bank of cylinders. You can see some of them in the photos

Specs from Wikipedia:

General characteristics

* Type: 28-cylinder supercharged air-cooled four-row radial engine
* Bore: 5.75 in. (146 mm)
* Stroke: 6.00 in. (152 mm)
* Displacement: 4,360 in³ (71.4 L)
* Length: 96.5 in. (2 451 mm)
* Diameter: 55 in (1397 mm)
* Dry weight: 3,870 lb (1,755 kg)

Components

* Valvetrain: Poppet, two valves per cylinder
* Supercharger: Gear-driven single stage variable speed centrifugal type supercharger
* Fuel system: Stromberg four-barrel pressure-type carburetor
* Fuel type: 108/135 octane gasoline
* Cooling system: Air-cooled

Performance

* Power output: 4,300 hp (3,210 kW)
* Specific power: 0.99 hp/in³ (45.0 kW/L)
* Compression ratio: 6.7 : 1
* Power-to-weight ratio: 1.11 hp/lb (1.83 kW/kg)

 

[Tom-D]

That I understand. It states the odd firing is to provide smoother operation. The firing skips but the other cylinders are in other positions during the stroke; intake, compression and exhaust or somewhere along there. I'm betting a 28-cylinder engine has some very, very close firing..

What you speak of is power stroke overlap, and yes all the other cylinders are on some portion of thier cycle of intake, compression, power or exhaust.

The 28 cylinder engine will have 28 power strokes in 720 degrees of crankshaft travel. yes that is close together. 720/28=25.714 degrees.

My 7 cylinder will have a power stroke every 103 degrees, as you can see the more cylinders you have the smoother the engine will run.

Let us not forget the multi row radial doesn't fire all the odd number then all the even cylinders. There isa formula to find the order, I would have to stir grey matter that has not been stired in a very long time to telll you the formula.


IOW I forgot what it is.

 

[Ghery]

IOW I forgot what it is.

Tom, on things mechanical about airplanes I suspect you've forgotten far more than many of us know. We'll forgive you for this one.

 

[Dave2]

Tom, on things mechanical about airplanes I suspect you've forgotten far more than many of us know. We'll forgive you for this one.

Possibly more than all of us put together.

 

[Tom-D]

Possibly more than all of us put together.

AS you grow older your grey matter fills up, then you must forget some thing before you can learn a new fact. The firing order of the 4360 was way low on the priority list, and went away a long time ago.

Some day I'll learn a new fact, and find I no longer know the way home, That is why I take Bobbi every where she knows the way home, now I have to teach her to drive the truck.

 

[Richard]

AS you grow older your grey matter fills up, then you must forget some thing before you can learn a new fact. The firing order of the 4360 was way low on the priority list, and went away a long time ago.

Some day I'll learn a new fact, and find I no longer know the way home, That is why I take Bobbi every where she knows the way home, now I have to teach her to drive the truck.

Tom, that's real funny. I say that there qualifies for top honors of this weeks Friday joke.

Last night I dreamed of you stirring grey matter (what do you use as catalyst?) as you worked on the F-24. I woke up in a sweat.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, that's real funny. I say that there qualifies for top honors of this weeks Friday joke.

Last night I dreamed of you stirring grey matter (what do you use as catalyst?).

Beer

as you worked on the F-24. I woke up in a sweat.

If your dreaming of me, you should be in a sweat.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

<snip>

It will work on 5, 7, and 9 cylinder engines, now how do you get an even numberd radial? the 3350 Wright was a 18 cylinder engine.

IIRC:
I've seen plans for an eight cylinder radial a few years ago, don't know if it was ever built.

 

[gismo]

IIRC: st few years ago, don't know if it was ever built.

Must have been a 2 stroke. Four stroke radials require an odd number of cylinders per row. The only way to have an even number of cylinders on a 4-stroke radial is to have an even number of rows.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Must have been a 2 stroke. Four stroke radials require an odd number of cylinders per row. The only way to have an even number of cylinders on a 4-stroke radial is to have an even number of rows.

Yes, it is 2 stroke, 8 cylinder, here at bottom of page:

http://www.ultralightnews.ca/sunfun02/radial_engine.htm

 

[Henning]

Well, I hope I get an "A" for effort. I was figuring five rows around the engine with four cylinders each. I was way off by two rows. That's a crowded shaft!

IIRC the Lycoming 7755 had 36 cyl.

 

[KennyFlys]

IIRC the Lycoming 7755 had 36 cyl.

That was NO small engine!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycoming_R-7755

Length: 120 in (3,050 mm)
Diameter: 60 in (1,525 mm)

5,000 hp (3,730 kW) at 2,600 rpm takeoff
4,000 hp (2,985 kW) at 2,300 rpm cruise

 

[jshawley]

IIRC, the Douglas C124 also had the 28-cylinder Wright. During my CAP cadet days in the mid-60s, I spent a week at Dickey-Goober AFB in Kansas City; toured a C-124, where maint. was doing a run-up. The whole thing was shaking like it had the ague.

BTW, no flywheel needed. So many power strokes per single rotation, it was smooth enough.

Jim

 

[Henning]

IIRC, the Douglas C124 also had the 28-cylinder Wright. During my CAP cadet days in the mid-60s, I spent a week at Dickey-Goober AFB in Kansas City; toured a C-124, where maint. was doing a run-up. The whole thing was shaking like it had the ague.

BTW, no flywheel needed. So many power strokes per single rotation, it was smooth enough.

Jim

I'm not aware of any radial with a flywheel.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not aware of any radial with a flywheel.

It's called a prop.

 

[Henning]

It's called a prop.

I'm aware of that, however even though it may serve the same effect, it's not considered a flywheel. Many of the boat engines I operate have both props and flywheels.

 

[KennyFlys]

It's called a prop.

I thought that was an aircrew cooling device?

 

[Tom-D]

I'm aware of that, however even though it may serve the same effect, it's not considered a flywheel. Many of the boat engines I operate have both props and flywheels.

Most radials have a flywheel built in, see the picture of the P&W 2800 cut away attached you'll see a flyweight just below and to the left of the piston.

and in my engine each side of the articulating rod

there will be one for every master rod in the engine.

 

[Tom-D]

Try this one

 

[Henning]

Most radials have a flywheel built in, see the picture of the P&W 2800 cut away attached you'll see a flyweight just below and to the left of the piston.

and in my engine each side of the articulating rod

there will be one for every master rod in the engine.

Aren't those called Flyweights rather than Flywheels ?

 

[Henning]

Try this one

Isn't that one of the Packards?