i witnessed a crash

patmike

patmike

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pat
what a way to start off the new year. i had a lesson today and we were at our "training" airport kijd. there was an amphib there that looked like he was doing touch and go's thing was his go just didn't seem to be there. we did a full stop landing taxied back to the runway took off and still almost caught up with him on the downwind. i was just about to turn to final when he touched down and i thought he was going to stay down buy he took back off. as we touched down we could see something wasn't quite right. his climb out was for lack of a better word lazy. also during this whole time it seemed like there was someones mic keyed open and you could hear a screaming engine the whole time. well after his "lazy" takeoff he just never seemed to gain altitude and he eventually went into a nose down bank till he disappeared behind the trees. we parked the plane and ran towards the woods where it looked like he went in. turns out he made it into the reservoir on the other side of the tree line. the plane was bent up pretty good but the good news is the pilot was just "shaken up" according to the news. here's the question am i obligated by any rule to come forward as a witness?
 
As the pilot is able to tell them what happened, there is less of a need for your information. Call the FSDO, leave a message that you witnessed the event. You'll get a callback, there may be something they would like an independent account of. Really no downside to it.
 
An aviation accident is a difficult occasion to absorb, emotionally, in that there is usually a greater incidence of personal injury. In the event you should be asked to submit a written statement referencing what you saw, please sharpen the statement as relates to text, punctuation, and proper placement of upper case letters. It will be a lot easier to read.

And welcome to Pilots of America. My camera store was a long time commercial client of Camera Shop of New Britain Photo-labs.

HR
 
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Don't call. Don't write. Is it a 830 reportable accident? Are you sure? Positive? Planes can be pretty banged up and still not qualify for a report. Besides you report to the NTSB never to the FAA. Let it be between the pilot, his insurance company, the NTSB, and the pilots spiritual guide.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Don't call. Don't write. Is it a 830 reportable accident? Are you sure? Positive? Planes can be pretty banged up and still not qualify for a report. Besides you report to the NTSB never to the FAA. Let it be between the pilot, his insurance company, the NTSB, and the pilots spiritual guide.
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agree
 
ClimbnSink said:
Don't call. Don't write. Is it a 830 reportable accident? Are you sure? Positive? Planes can be pretty banged up and still not qualify for a report. Besides you report to the NTSB never to the FAA. Let it be between the pilot, his insurance company, the NTSB, and the pilots spiritual guide.
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dennyleeb said:
agree
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So your saying the police, fire dept. and tv news reports aren't going to trigger some sort of investigation?
http://www.wfsb.com/story/16426050/small-plane-crashes-in-w
 
patmike said:
So your saying the police, fire dept. and tv news reports aren't going to trigger some sort of investigation?
http://www.wfsb.com/story/16426050/small-plane-crashes-in-w
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Again you never call the FAA after an accident, they might call you but you never call them to report.
They have a live, unharmed pilot, and an intact enough to investigate airplane. There is no mystery here. You aren't some magical black box that is going to tell us what happened to Amelia. You don't know anything they can't find out from the pilot.
Besides we don't know if they care, engines quit all the time, looks like an experimental which makes it more likely they won't investigate. And tomorrow is a federal holiday you think the FAA guys want to punch in on a holiday for a nonevent engine failure? Stop trying to run to mommy with your not so big secret.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Don't call. Don't write. Is it a 830 reportable accident? Are you sure? Positive? Planes can be pretty banged up and still not qualify for a report. Besides you report to the NTSB never to the FAA. Let it be between the pilot, his insurance company, the NTSB, and the pilots spiritual guide.
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dennyleeb said:
agree
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You two sound like you must be real fine upstanding members of your respective communities!
 
In answer to the original question: No. You are not obligated to report. Seeing as there's a live pilot and an unflyable airplane, anything that you would have to add would be superfluous anyway.

As the two upstanding citizens implied, ain't none of your bidness.
 
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Bobcat1 said:
In answer to the original question: No. You are not obligated to report. Seeing as there's a live pilot and an unflyable airplane, anything that you would have to add would be superfluous anyway.

thank you. that's the simple answer.
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Fascinating show of how negative results of interactions with FAA/authorities has built a feeling from darn near everyone commenting so far, who say that volunteering any and all information regarding specifics of a crash, should not be done by onlookers. Even pilot trained witnesses.

What's interesting is that I agree with the sentiment, but after reading a number of books on the topic of irrational decisions recently, I can also see where not sharing the fact that you witnessed quite a bit of the flying that happened prior to the accident, is completely irrational from a standpoint of safety culture.

A safety culture response assumes no negative repercussions of reporting the facts, however. Think... NASA ASRS, here. Building a feeling of "no foul" is absolutely critical for that system to gather true safety data.

People are interesting creatures when it comes to motivations.

Remember that Captain Van Zandt -- the guy who made the fateful rushed decision to launch a 747 down a runway at Tenerife that ultimately killed himself and over 500 people -- was the HEAD of the Safety department for his airline. He was the guy who evaluated every safety procedure for all his peers.

Ironically, a major factor in his decision to get airborne was the relatively new at the time, crew rest rules... which were about to strand him and his crew on an island without enough hotel rooms for all the passengers on the various stranded aircraft on the tiny ramp.

Something which was created to enhance Safety, actually helped cause the accident in a limited sense.

And they were all there at Tenerife instead of Las Palmas, because some nut job blew up a flower shop with a small bomb at their original intended point of landing.

Note that exploding flower shops typically have little safety effect on landing a jumbo jet on a runway far from the terminal building... but the unintended consequence of closing the airport started a unique chain of events that put a whole lot of jumbo jets on a tiny island ramp, during a soccer game that the controllers wanted to listen to. A chain was started.

In the OP's case another factor will be that eyewitness testimony is typically the most inaccurate and biased information retrieved during most accident investigations. It's rarely even close to objective.

What he or she thinks he or she saw is mostly irrelevant. A good accident investigator digs out facts from their testimony and leave all of the speculation behind. Very hard to do.

Just some thoughts on how weird our accident reporting, investigation process, and ultimately the feeling of "they'll ask whoever they need to ask" non-assistance attitudes come from.

Aviation's deep into making sure blame is affixed to bad outcomes. Everyone, even non-flyers who've never set foot, even as a pax, wants to have a definitive answer as to why an aircraft went down. Meanwhile, they'll completely ignore the investigation of a fatal car crash a block away from their home -- on streets they travel daily.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Again you never call the FAA after an accident, they might call you but you never call them to report.
They have a live, unharmed pilot, and an intact enough to investigate airplane. There is no mystery here. You aren't some magical black box that is going to tell us what happened to Amelia. You don't know anything they can't find out from the pilot.
Besides we don't know if they care, engines quit all the time, looks like an experimental which makes it more likely they won't investigate. And tomorrow is a federal holiday you think the FAA guys want to punch in on a holiday for a nonevent engine failure? Stop trying to run to mommy with your not so big secret.
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is this the way you get your jollies, belittling someone who doesn't know any better?
hope you feel like a big man now.
happy new year
 
patmike said:
is this the way you get your jollies, belittling someone who doesn't know any better?
hope you feel like a big man now.
happy new year
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Pat,

Welcome to POA.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain (my wizard of oz quote for the day :rolleyes: ). Folks wonder why people don't ask questions and why pilots get that elitist tag...........

Thanks for asking your question, I thought it would have been FSDO for the call but it's good to read the intelligent responses.
 
denverpilot said:
Fascinating show of how negative results of interactions with FAA/authorities has built a feeling from darn near everyone commenting so far, who say that volunteering any and all information regarding specifics of a crash, should not be done by onlookers. Even pilot trained witnesses.
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Without sending this spinning into Spin Zone, it's more about government officials than the FAA. Folks have been trained over time that "getting involved" means that those same folks get proctologized by the same agency they're reporting to. Were YOU acting legally? Were you a contributing factor? Was your plane legal? Etc. Etc. Think "I'm from the government, I'm here to HELP you..." A lot of it's butt-covering and justifying jobs.

Just try reporting something suspicious in an airport to the TSA. See if you get accused of being part of a plot.

This is why we have "sheeple" and folks that let the government take their rights - the government has built a culture of fear.

I suspect that having the report will help fill out some questions that might arise. But it might also drag the reporter into litigation, defense of a certificate action, or an insurance case. Suppose a lawyer tries to sue the aircraft (airframe, engine, etc) manufacturer - you may well be called as a witness.

Sad that we're even having this conversation....
 
I wouldn't report it either. You could get dragged into quite a mess. The pilot and plane will provide plenty for the FAA to use in an investigation.

Now, if I witnessed a crash where the pilot did not survive, or I saw something really curious I would report it. Like smoke, fire, a missing control surface.. Etc.
 
What if the crash was unreported by the pilot, and the plane's owner left the plane damage unreported? Doesn't apply in this case as it's made it to the news, FAA, etc. If damage is caused to the plane, though, and the pilot recovers the plane to the airport/grass strip/wherever without reporting it...do people still advocate saying nothing?
 
Send in an ASRS (NASA) report. They want to know about safety issues to help avoid future accidents.
 
it might be inconvenient to do the right thing, but be a pilot, dammit.

I'm disappointed in the responses in this thread.
 
Mike I said:
What if the crash was unreported by the pilot, and the plane's owner left the plane damage unreported? Doesn't apply in this case as it's made it to the news, FAA, etc. If damage is caused to the plane, though, and the pilot recovers the plane to the airport/grass strip/wherever without reporting it...do people still advocate saying nothing?
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Good question. I'm still in the "don't report" camp on this one. What business would it be of yours whether it were reported or not? How would you go about finding out? WHY would you be motivated to find out whether it's been reported? Your buying the plane would be the only logical reason.

Still a case of ain't none o' your bidness.
 
SkyHog said:
it might be inconvenient to do the right thing, but be a pilot, dammit.

I'm disappointed in the responses in this thread.
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You fly your own airplane, not mine.
 
I wouldn't report anything in this case, as the pilot survived, and it doesn't sound as if you have anything "special" (i.e. I witnessed a fire/the pilot didn't do any run-up/oil was running out of the cowling) that would shed additional light on the accident.

If the pilot had died, THEN I'd come forward as I may have been one of the few witnesses to the takeoff and departure.

Also, I don't think a NASA form is appropriate. That's generally to report mistakes or safety issues you made or had happen to you, not for third person observations about something happening to someone else, unless it's a systemic problem.
 
Bobcat1 said:
Good question. I'm still in the "don't report" camp on this one. What business would it be of yours whether it were reported or not? How would you go about finding out? WHY would you be motivated to find out whether it's been reported? Your buying the plane would be the only logical reason.
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Isn't that reason enough? Or to protect any other potential buyer, the current owner, any passengers (s)he might take up, and promote a general safety-conscious attitude? In another thread, there's shock that someone might fly a plane with a known deficiency without a special ferry permit. Here, we've got a possibly damaged aircraft with the potential of the damage being swept under the rug, and everyone is advocating to turn their head and ignore it.

Let me put it this way: If you witnessed damage to a commercial aircraft you weren't a passenger on...say, a baggage cart rammed into an engine nacelle... but the cart driver didn't say anything and nobody else noticed before departure. Would you keep your mouth shut, and if not, why is this any different?
 
Reporting is not the right thing. Should I be a pilot and report near misses in the traffic pattern(from the ground), or what I thought was a near miss? Why just yesterday I saw some gliders taking off not 200' behind a power plane, there must be a law against that how do I report them? Should I report those using non standard terminology on unicom? Low flying helicopters and low flying crop dusters we definitely have a duty to report those cowboys.:rolleyes: Whenever these tattle tell threads come up I'm inspired to go out to the airport and go ignorant observer reporting on GA pilots, see how you rats like it.:mad2:

SkyHog said:
it might be inconvenient to do the right thing, but be a pilot, dammit.

I'm disappointed in the responses in this thread.
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ClimbnSink said:
what I thought was a near miss? Why just yesterday I saw some gliders taking off not 200' behind a power plane, there must be a law against that how do I report them? Should I report those using non standard terminology on unicom? Low flying helicopters and low flying crop dusters we definitely have a duty to report those cowboys.
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We're not talking about near-incidents. We're talking about damage to an aircraft.
 
Ron Levy said:
This is not the purpose for the FAA Safety Hotline. It's there to report safety hazards and concerns, i.e., something that might cause an accident, not an accident itself.
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From the website:
Fill out the form below to report:

  • Maintenance issues
  • Aircraft Incidents
  • Aircraft Accidents
  • Suspected violations of Federal Aviation Regulations
The safety hotline is the best all around place to report anything you think the FAA might be interested. Legitimate issues get reviewed and assigned to the proper FSDO.

To the OP, you are under no obligation to report observed accidents as a witness. However in this instance there are a number of issues that the FAA or NTSB might be interested in. The above website is the best way to inform people who are doing the investigation of the accident of any issues that you observed. While the NTSB is charged with investigation accidents, the FAA typically provides the manpower to actually investigate non-fatal accidents. Info submitted to the safety hotline will make its way to the proper parties. NASA forms would not necessarily be reviewed to find witnesses to accidents.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Reporting is not the right thing. Should I be a pilot and report near misses in the traffic pattern(from the ground), or what I thought was a near miss? Why just yesterday I saw some gliders taking off not 200' behind a power plane, there must be a law against that how do I report them? Should I report those using non standard terminology on unicom? Low flying helicopters and low flying crop dusters we definitely have a duty to report those cowboys.:rolleyes: Whenever these tattle tell threads come up I'm inspired to go out to the airport and go ignorant observer reporting on GA pilots, see how you rats like it.:mad2:
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right. because a near miss is exactly the same thing as a crash in the woods.

:rolleyes:
 
SkyHog said:
right. because a near miss is exactly the same thing as a crash in the woods.

:rolleyes:
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It wasn't a crash it was a forced landing. I know all the rules I'm turning someone in for something next time I'm out at the airport.:devil:
 
infotango; said:
While the NTSB is charged with investigation accidents, the FAA typically provides the manpower to actually investigate non-fatal accidents.
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The FAA also investigates fatal accidents.
 
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Like someone said earlier - I wouldn't report it. It's nunya bidness.
 
Well isn't that funny. From the article Harley linked: The FAA described the incident as a hard landing. Move along folks, and for the love of freedom MYOB. Geez even the press called it a hard landing.:rofl:
 
Mike I said:
Isn't that reason enough? Or to protect any other potential buyer, the current owner, any passengers (s)he might take up, and promote a general safety-conscious attitude? ...

...If you witnessed damage to a commercial aircraft you weren't a passenger on...say, a baggage cart rammed into an engine nacelle... but the cart driver didn't say anything and nobody else noticed before departure. Would you keep your mouth shut, and if not, why is this any different?
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1) No. Re-read NTSB 830. In this case, you're not the operator and the airplane is in such a state that major repair is required before the aircraft is considered airworthy. Nobody is at risk and it's not your call.

2) In the case of the baggage cart and the engine nacelle I still wouldn't call the FAA or NTSB. They might show up a week later if they hurry. I might give a call to ops or pass the word to whoever's gonna be taking the airplane next. They're the ones who really need to know about this.

There are a lot of busybody know nothing private pilots out there who call in stuff like King Air pilots neglecting to do mag checks before takeoff. Any time a report crosses a Fed's desk, a lot of time is devoted to figuring out whether there is anything to that report that would merit further investigation.
 
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This was some little experimental deathtrap that fell into the reservoir that supplies the city with water. The FAA is already involved, so there is no secret to be kept from them.

As nobody got killed and no famous person is involved, this wont be investigated by the NTSB. Some FAA guy went out there, took some pictures and will email a narrative to the NTSB two weeks from now to be put in the database. 'Loss of engine power for unknown reasons' and 'the pilot stated that the accident would not have happened had he not taken off that day' will be the key points of the report.

If you leave a message that you witnessed the crash, you may or may not get a callback. You are certainly not obliged to call anyone, but if you call the FAA wont come to your home and shoot your dog for doing so.
 
GMascelli said:
Pat,

Welcome to POA.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain (my wizard of oz quote for the day :rolleyes: ). Folks wonder why people don't ask questions and why pilots get that elitist tag...........

Thanks for asking your question, I thought it would have been FSDO for the call but it's good to read the intelligent responses.
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Thanks, I do understand that every forum has a select few who think they own the place and like nothing better than attacking the new guy to make themselves feel superior. If all of the naysayers had read the question "am i obligated by any rule to come forward as a witness?" key word OBLIGATED. You see people who know nothing about or know very little about the aviation world see what I saw look at that as a pretty big deal and therefore we feel if we don't step forward the men in black will be at our door wanting to know why we did tell them what we saw.

For me, i just wanted to know if there was some rule that said i was supposed to step forward. my thought was as a holder of a student pilot certificate one would be bound to such a rule if there was one.

I thought by coming here i would get a simple answer to my simple question by some knowledgeable people.
 
patmike said:
I thought by coming here i would get a simple answer to my simple question by some knowledgeable people.
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how-to-start-an-argument-on-the-internet.jpg


So true
 
patmike said:
Thanks, I do understand that every forum has a select few who think they own the place and like nothing better than attacking the new guy to make themselves feel superior. If all of the naysayers had read the question "am i obligated by any rule to come forward as a witness?" key word OBLIGATED. You see people who know nothing about or know very little about the aviation world see what I saw look at that as a pretty big deal and therefore we feel if we don't step forward the men in black will be at our door wanting to know why we did tell them what we saw.

For me, i just wanted to know if there was some rule that said i was supposed to step forward. my thought was as a holder of a student pilot certificate one would be bound to such a rule if there was one.

I thought by coming here i would get a simple answer to my simple question by some knowledgeable people.
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Pat,

Give POA a chance. I was "attacked" on my very first post too and I'm still here. It is a place filled with great people if you stick around and get to know them.

Kimberly
 
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