I voted

[steingar]

I voted last night, mostly for Democrats. I had to hold my nose to vote for our Governor, but he was vastly better than the other guy, at least in my own opinion. Here we vote for judges, which I think is profoundly stupid. My Congresscritter lost, though not a huge loss I think. Her replacement is pretty awful though. Maybe he'll get swept out on a wave of popular discontent too.

 

[wsuffa]

And for anyone who says that "my one vote doesn't count", my congressional district has not had a "declared" winner (though one candidate has proclaimed himself the winner). The current vote count is a few hundred votes difference out of some 200,000+ with several hundred provisionals & possibly some absentee yet to count. There will be a recount (I am pretty much certain that the losing candidate will request a recount with less than 0.5% difference).

The precinct next to mine had a single vote difference between candidates, out of a couple of thousand voters.

Yet we only had something like a 50% voter turnout.

Yes, a single vote does count.

 

[JeffDG]

And for anyone who says that "my one vote doesn't count", my congressional district has not had a "declared" winner (though one candidate has proclaimed himself the winner). The current vote count is a few hundred votes difference out of some 200,000+ with several hundred provisionals & possibly some absentee yet to count. There will be a recount (I am pretty much certain that the losing candidate will request a recount with less than 0.5% difference).

The precinct next to mine had a single vote difference between candidates, out of a couple of thousand voters.

Yet we only had something like a 50% voter turnout.

Yes, a single vote does count.

During the primary here in my county, we had a Juvenile Court Judge position that ended up tied...actually tied after all the recounts. County Commission, under the law, got to cast a deciding vote in this case.

How'd you like to be a friend of the lose in that one who said "Yeah, I meant to go vote for you, man, but I just got too busy and had to go get groceries."

 

[dmccormack]

Yet we only had something like a 50% voter turnout..

The fewer, the better.

I had to vote emergency absentee since I was directed to DC for work this week.

That process included a trip to the County election commission office for a form, a walk to the courthouse for the prothonotary signature, show government issued picture ID, a walk back to the election office for the actual ballot, sit at assigned desk and place marks (completely fill the square!), then place form in envelope, mark that envelope, seal, place sealed envelope in second envelope, seal, mark front of envelope, hand to election commission clerk.

One hour, lots of walking.

And yet showing ID at a polling place is an "undue burden?"

 

[Maxmosbey]

I voted last night, mostly for Democrats. I had to hold my nose to vote for our Governor, but he was vastly better than the other guy, at least in my own opinion. Here we vote for judges, which I think is profoundly stupid. My Congresscritter lost, though not a huge loss I think. Her replacement is pretty awful though. Maybe he'll get swept out on a wave of popular discontent too.

Iowa has a retention vote for judges. Three supreme court judges lost their job in the elections Tuesday night. They ruled last year that gays could not be discriminated against if they applied for a marriage license. Some guy named Vander Plaats, who lost a bid for Governor in the Republican primary, led a campaign to get them unseated. He succeeded.

 

[EdFred]

And for anyone who says that "my one vote doesn't count", my congressional district has not had a "declared" winner (though one candidate has proclaimed himself the winner). The current vote count is a few hundred votes difference out of some 200,000+ with several hundred provisionals & possibly some absentee yet to count. There will be a recount (I am pretty much certain that the losing candidate will request a recount with less than 0.5% difference).

The precinct next to mine had a single vote difference between candidates, out of a couple of thousand voters.

Yet we only had something like a 50% voter turnout.

Yes, a single vote does count.

I will say it lilke I do every two years, my vote does not ever count, because I refuse to vote R or D.

 

[Maxmosbey]

The fewer, the better.

I had to vote emergency absentee since I was directed to DC for work this week.

That process included a trip to the County election commission office for a form, a walk to the courthouse for the prothonotary signature, show government issued picture ID, a walk back to the election office for the actual ballot, sit at assigned desk and place marks (completely fill the square!), then place form in envelope, mark that envelope, seal, place sealed envelope in second envelope, seal, mark front of envelope, hand to election commission clerk.

One hour, lots of walking.

And yet showing ID at a polling place is an "undue burden?"

My wife and I both showed up at the poling place about seven thirty in the morning. There was a half dozen people in front of us. The woman working there asked the lady in front of my wife for ID. My wife pulled her DL out of her purse so that she would have it ready. When she got up to the woman working there, the woman looked at my wife and said, "I don't need that". Then I came up after my wife, and the woman just handed me a piece of paper to sign and to write in my address. No ID. I wonder what was going on with that lady in front of my wife? I kind of wonder if maybe she knew us, but she didn't know the lady she asked for ID. We've lived here a long time.

 

[ScottM]

And yet showing ID at a polling place is an "undue burden?"

Not everyone who is eligible to vote has an id card.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24490932/

About 12 Indiana nuns were turned away Tuesday from a polling place by a fellow sister because they didn't have state or federal identification bearing a photograph.
Sister Julie McGuire said she was forced to turn away her fellow members of Saint Mary's Convent in South Bend, across the street from the University of Notre Dame, because they had been told earlier that they would need such an ID to vote.
The nuns, all in their 80s or 90s, didn't get one but came to the precinct anyway.
"One came down this morning, and she was 98, and she said, 'I don't want to go do that,'" Sister McGuire said. Some showed up with outdated passports. None of them drives.

Nuns are some of those shady characters that are eligible to vote but not have id.


The article is a couple of years old but I think it shows that not everyone has kowtowed to the man and gotten a government id.

 

[dmccormack]

Not everyone who is eligible to vote has an id card.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24490932/

Nuns are some of those shady characters that are eligible to vote but not have id.

My Aunt has been a nun (Sisters of Africa) for 50 years.

She has several "government IDs"

 

[ScottM]

My Aunt has been a nun (Sisters of Africa) for 50 years.

She has several "government IDs"

My mother in law was a woman all of her life, but did not have a valid id due to be in a nursing home. While mentally competent she was not allowed to vote if ID was required because she could not get to where an ID would issued.

Until there is a way to ensure that everyone who wants and needs an id can get one then requiring an id can be a undue burden on people.

 

[nddons]

My mother in law was a woman all of her life, but did not have a valid id due to be in a nursing home. While mentally competent she was not allowed to vote if ID was required because she could not get to where an ID would issued.

Until there is a way to ensure that everyone who wants and needs an id can get one then requiring an id can be a undue burden on people.

Give me a break. It is inconceivable to me that 10 years after the 2000 election fiasco, we still have no ID requirement in many states. When Georgia either passed voter ID or suggested it (GA folks chime in) they had a provision to help people get a photo ID including, if I recall, delivering it to them or transporting them to get the ID.

If folks are capable of voting, they ought to be capable of getting a valid ID prior to an election. The "undue burden" argument is as hollow as it gets, and just demonstrates that voter fraud is completely acceptable to the anti-ID crowd.

 

[mantakos]

... The woman working there asked the lady in front of my wife for ID...

Looks like Iowa requires presentation of a photo ID at the polling place:

http://www.sos.state.ia.us/elections/voterinformation/voterregistration.html​

Maryland doesn't require ID to vote. If I had known the name of a registered voter, I would have been able to vote for him. I'm not sure what happens if I show up at the polling place and somebody has already voted under my name.
-harry

 

[ScottM]

Give me a break.

What do you want broken? Sounds like you are agreeing with me.

It is inconceivable to me that 10 years after the 2000 election fiasco, we still have no ID requirement in many states. When Georgia either passed voter ID or suggested it (GA folks chime in) they had a provision to help people get a photo ID including, if I recall, delivering it to them or transporting them to get the ID.

Yep a huge government program, bureaucracy has to be built to handle this delivery system. Good plan. How much voter fraud is there actually? I mean beside Ann Coulter going to the wrong polling place?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/opinion/13tue1.html

There is no evidence that voting by noncitizens is a significant problem. Illegal immigrants do their best to remain in the shadows, to avoid attracting government attention and risking deportation. It is hard to imagine that many would walk into a polling place, in the presence of challengers and police, and try to cast a ballot.
There is, however, ample evidence that a requirement of proof of citizenship will keep many eligible voters from voting. Many people do not have birth certificates or other acceptable proof of citizenship, and for some people, that proof is not available.

Even if government IDs are required, they do not ensure that the person is truly eligible to vote. Many non-citizens can get government IDs.

If folks are capable of voting, they ought to be capable of getting a valid ID prior to an election. The "undue burden" argument is as hollow as it gets, and just demonstrates that voter fraud is completely acceptable to the anti-ID crowd.

voting can be accomplished via the US Mail. Getting an ID has to be done in person. Many people have no ability or sometimes even a way to get to an official ID location. Therefore, as you said earlier, there has to be a system in place for them to be able to do that. Who is going to pay for that system? You cannot create a mandate that disenfranchises a group of voters.

 

[jesse]

My wife and I both showed up at the poling place about seven thirty in the morning. There was a half dozen people in front of us. The woman working there asked the lady in front of my wife for ID. My wife pulled her DL out of her purse so that she would have it ready. When she got up to the woman working there, the woman looked at my wife and said, "I don't need that". Then I came up after my wife, and the woman just handed me a piece of paper to sign and to write in my address. No ID. I wonder what was going on with that lady in front of my wife? I kind of wonder if maybe she knew us, but she didn't know the lady she asked for ID. We've lived here a long time.

No ID required here for vote - just have to be registered and tell them your name and address. Really you only need to tell them your name because they have the book open in front of you with the address. Just read and repeat.

 

[dmccormack]

My mother in law was a woman all of her life, but did not have a valid id due to be in a nursing home. While mentally competent she was not allowed to vote if ID was required because she could not get to where an ID would issued.

Until there is a way to ensure that everyone who wants and needs an id can get one then requiring an id can be a undue burden on people.

Odd exception to the contrary -- in my case the absentee ballot required an ID. Anyone casting a vote on election day is not required to present an ID.

That's inconsistent.

 

[Matthew]

My wife and I both showed up at the poling place about seven thirty in the morning. There was a half dozen people in front of us. The woman working there asked the lady in front of my wife for ID. My wife pulled her DL out of her purse so that she would have it ready. When she got up to the woman working there, the woman looked at my wife and said, "I don't need that". Then I came up after my wife, and the woman just handed me a piece of paper to sign and to write in my address. No ID. I wonder what was going on with that lady in front of my wife? I kind of wonder if maybe she knew us, but she didn't know the lady she asked for ID. We've lived here a long time.

Don't know about IA laws - but KS requires ID the first time you vote in your county. There was probably a note in the book next to her name that indicated "new voter", or something like that, that flagged the poll worker to ask for ID.

 

[zaitcev]

My mother in law was a woman all of her life, but did not have a valid id due to be in a nursing home. While mentally competent she was not allowed to vote if ID was required because she could not get to where an ID would issued.

Now we have to weigh her plight against the alternative of massive Democrat fraud, ACORN, etc. Tough break, I guess.
-- Pete

 

[ScottM]

Now we have to weigh her plight against the alternative of massive Democrat fraud, ACORN, etc. Tough break, I guess.
-- Pete

What "massive fraud" would that be? The links you provided speak of one instances of one vote being cast improperly. I get the whole right wing scared of the boogie man Acorn urban myth of black people want to take over the world stuff. But seriously. Where is this massive voter fraud that you all speak of? The instances that come out show only a very small amount of problems with most of them at the registration part of the equation. Those problems seem to be caught. If there is such a massive amount of fraud by the left then why does the right ever win an election?

 

[wsuffa]

How'd you like to be a friend of the lose in that one who said "Yeah, I meant to go vote for you, man, but I just got too busy and had to go get groceries."

Ya mean like Bristol Palin?

My mother in law was a woman all of her life,

Gosh, I hope so! :wink2:

 

[nddons]

Even if government IDs are required, they do not ensure that the person is truly eligible to vote. Many non-citizens can get government IDs.

No, but it SHOULD ensure that the person appearing to vote lives where the voting registry says he lives. Right now in Wisconsin, as long as I can read upside down when they ask me my street address, I can vote. Presenting an ID would at least help ensure a match between name and address.

voting can be accomplished via the US Mail. Getting an ID has to be done in person. Many people have no ability or sometimes even a way to get to an official ID location. Therefore, as you said earlier, there has to be a system in place for them to be able to do that. Who is going to pay for that system? You cannot create a mandate that disenfranchises a group of voters.

Or, you could drive your mother in law to get an ID. Problem solved. And most nursing homes would do that and other services for their patients / residents.

The disenfrachisement argument is a canard.

 

[ScottM]

Or, you could drive your mother in law to get an ID.

A simple solution, that does not solve a problem, because the issue is not fully understood, the Republican way.

I don't think you have been listening very well. Her problem was not as simple as needing a ride. Like many elderly people she was not mobile and could not easily be moved.

I know you want the world to work simply. But it is not the case in practice.

 

[EdFred]

What "massive fraud" would that be? The links you provided speak of one instances of one vote being cast improperly. I get the whole right wing scared of the boogie man Acorn urban myth of black people want to take over the world stuff. But seriously. Where is this massive voter fraud that you all speak of? The instances that come out show only a very small amount of problems with most of them at the registration part of the equation. Those problems seem to be caught. If there is such a massive amount of fraud by the left then why does the right ever win an election?

Links are already in this thread.

 

[ScottM]

Links are already in this thread.

And they lead to nothing about "massive voter fraud". Did you actually look at the links? The huge Wisconsin fraud was one voter. One, Just ONE. Even this past election the right wing hysteria about voter fraud is just not supported by any law enforcement statistic. It is hysteria and scary boogeyman tactic, but it is not the pervasive massive problem that it is portrayed to be. The whole ACORN thing is even sillier. 'OOhhh scary black men are stealing election.....and your white women' PUHLEASE.

What many perceive as voter fraud is partisan claiming that there is fraud. There is not any substantiation.

I think that it is hilarious that the majority of real complaints about voter fraud that are made are usually coming from the Hispanic and black communities about intimidation and robo calls telling them that if they are voting Democratic to come to the polls the day after the election. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/44478.html

How many people in MN picked up the $500 bounty that was promised if they found anyone committing voter fraud on Tuesday?

 

[nddons]

A simple solution, that does not solve a problem, because the issue is not fully understood, the Republican way.

I don't think you have been listening very well. Her problem was not as simple as needing a ride. Like many elderly people she was not mobile and could not easily be moved.

I know you want the world to work simply. But it is not the case in practice.

Knock off the politics, Scott. This is Hangar Talk, not an SZ thread.

As for how well I have been listening, you said this:

My mother in law was a woman all of her life, but did not have a valid id due to be in a nursing home. While mentally competent she was not allowed to vote if ID was required because she could not get to where an ID would issued.

This does not say or imply that she was not mobile and could not easily be moved. I've had family in nursing homes including my Dad, and most have some source of transportation (i.e. a "Cabulance" for wheelchair bound people) for such tasks. There are always exceptions, but good public policy shouldn't be shaped by anechdotal storytelling.

 

[JeffDG]

Knock off the politics, Scott. This is Hangar Talk, not an SZ thread.

Due respect, but Scott didn't open this can of worms, he simply responded to a string of ad hominem attacks.

 

[EdFred]

And they lead to nothing about "massive voter fraud". Did you actually look at the links? The huge Wisconsin fraud was one voter. One, Just ONE. Even this past election the right wing hysteria about voter fraud is just not supported by any law enforcement statistic. It is hysteria and scary boogeyman tactic, but it is not the pervasive massive problem that it is portrayed to be. The whole ACORN thing is even sillier. 'OOhhh scary black men are stealing election.....and your white women' PUHLEASE.

What many perceive as voter fraud is partisan claiming that there is fraud. There is not any substantiation.

I think that it is hilarious that the majority of real complaints about voter fraud that are made are usually coming from the Hispanic and black communities about intimidation and robo calls telling them that if they are voting Democratic to come to the polls the day after the election. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/44478.html

How many people in MN picked up the $500 bounty that was promised if they found anyone committing voter fraud on Tuesday?

I did look at the links. Evidently you skipped over the ones with all the registration "inconsistancies."

 

[ScottM]

I did look at the links. Evidently you skipped over the ones with all the registration "inconsistancies."

I mentioned those

What "massive fraud" would that be? The links you provided speak of one instances of one vote being cast improperly. I get the whole right wing scared of the boogie man Acorn urban myth of black people want to take over the world stuff. But seriously. Where is this massive voter fraud that you all speak of? The instances that come out show only a very small amount of problems with most of them at the registration part of the equation. Those problems seem to be caught. If there is such a massive amount of fraud by the left then why does the right ever win an election?

Registration is where those issues are meant to be dealt with and are seemingly caught. Even then there is no evidence that shows this to be a "MASSIVE PROBLEM".

 

[AuntPeggy]

Play nice, all of you, please.

 

[EdFred]

I mentioned those

Registration is where those issues are meant to be dealt with and are seemingly caught. Even then there is no evidence that shows this to be a "MASSIVE PROBLEM".

So it's ok to try and commit fraud so long as someone else catches it before it happens. That makes it "not a problem." ??

Sorta like having to hire security guards to make sure that people aren't stealing stuff from the stores. "Well, they stopped them from taking anything so theft isn't really a problem." Ooooooooooooookay.

 

[ScottM]

So it's ok to try and commit fraud so long as someone else catches it before it happens. That makes it "not a problem." ??

Sorta like having to hire security guards to make sure that people aren't stealing stuff from the stores. "Well, they stopped them from taking anything so theft isn't really a problem." Ooooooooooooookay.

I did not say it was ok, but I did say it was not "MASSIVE" and it was not affecting elections as it was caught. That would seem to contravene the hysterical claims of fraud. Wouldn't it?

 

[EdFred]

I did not say it was ok, but I did say it was not "MASSIVE" and it was not affecting elections as it was caught. That would seem to contravene the hysterical claims of fraud. Wouldn't it?

"There were a decent number of cases of attempted fraud through inconsistant registration", how's that? We can't say it would affect the elections because the votes were never cast, however, I would definitely say there was probably a blue tinge to the inconsistancies.

 

[ScottM]

"There were a decent number of cases of attempted fraud through inconsistant registration", how's that? We can't say it would affect the elections because the votes were never cast, however, I would definitely say there was probably a blue tinge to the inconsistancies.

More reasonable. But hardly lead to any election irregularities. Will you also stipulate that there was voter intimidation by the Tea Party at several early voting polling places this past election along with several mysterious attempts to supress Democratic turnout in several urban areas?

Just an FYI

When the Department of Justice under President Bush launched a crackdown on fraud in 2002, five years later it only had 86 convictions to show for the effort. That's .00007 percent of the 122 million people [pdf] who voted for president in the 2004 elections.

That is a blip in the statistical noise.

A few years later

Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare. Most citizens who take the time to vote offer their legitimate signatures and sworn oaths with the gravitas that this hard-won civic right deserves. Even for the few who view voting merely as a means to an end, however, voter fraud is a singularly foolish way to attempt to win an election. Each act of voter fraud risks five years in prison and a $10,000 fine – but yields at most one incremental vote. The single vote is simply not worth the price.
Because voter fraud is essentially irrational, it is not surprising that no credible evidence suggests a voter fraud epidemic. There is no documented wave or trend of individuals voting multiple times, voting as someone else, or voting despite knowing that they are ineligible. Indeed, evidence from the microscopically scrutinized 2004 gubernatorial election in Washington State actually reveals just the opposite: though voter fraud does happen, it happens approximately 0.0009% of the time. The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often.​

http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_38347.pdf

See what I mean about the claims of voter fraud being a hysterical ranting? There simply is no evidence that it is a "MASSIVE" problem!

​

 

[Maxmosbey]

Looks like Iowa requires presentation of a photo ID at the polling place:

http://www.sos.state.ia.us/elections/voterinformation/voterregistration.html​

Maryland doesn't require ID to vote. If I had known the name of a registered voter, I would have been able to vote for him. I'm not sure what happens if I show up at the polling place and somebody has already voted under my name.
-harry

It would have been OK with me if she had asked for it. It is in my wallet right next to my debit card. It isn't hard to find.

 

[dmccormack]

The IRS has massive capabilities for tracking, tracing, reporting, and assessing who paid what to whom.

You can't buy a product from a normal store (forget "farmers markets" and the like) without getting a 4 page "receipt."

So -- in this age of data tracking, why can't I see where my vote went, so that if there is any concern about fraud I can pull out my "receipt" and say "I voted for X on this day at that time."??????????????????????????????????????????

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Give me a break. It is inconceivable to me that 10 years after the 2000 election fiasco, we still have no ID requirement in many states.

Including the one you and I live in, affirmed by our Supreme Court not so long ago.

Yet, they still caught the old guy who tried to vote twice, in different counties, this time around. The state also seems to have a much more sophisticated computer system for tracking voter registration now.

But frankly, I kind of like it the way it is. Seems to me someone from the "party of small government" would agree. It seems to work quite well right now, and I have visions of voting becoming like TSA checkpoints if they start down the path of ID's.

No, but it SHOULD ensure that the person appearing to vote lives where the voting registry says he lives. Right now in Wisconsin, as long as I can read upside down when they ask me my street address, I can vote. Presenting an ID would at least help ensure a match between name and address.

Even now, it is not at all hard to make a fake ID. I don't think the ID requirement would stop someone who's really motivated, and the system that's currently in place will probably be what catches them anyway.

 

[N801BH]

Due respect, but Scott didn't open this can of worms, he simply responded to a string of ad hominem attacks.

That's funny. I didn't even see a person named " ad hominem" on the ballot I filled out and fed into the voting machine. :wink2::wink2::wink2:

Ben ( smart ass) Haas

 

[wsuffa]

And with that, this thread is done in HT.

Per MC decision, we'll close it. If y'all want to continue, start a new thread in Spin Zone.