I think that I busted Bravo today

orange

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I'm pretty sure that I busted Newark Bravo today. But I'm not sure because I couldn't see the Ipad due to glare. The other thing is that the sectional is so congested in that area, I'm not sure where it goes from +12 to +08 to +05. If it happened, I know it's no excuse.

I departed Linden NJ (KLDJ) runway 9 to head back towards JFK. The airport is inside the +08 bottom shelf of Newark. TPA is 799. As you proceed east, it turns into +05. I was supposed to make a sharp 80-90* turn to the right (SE) to avoid it. But I made about a 30* turn and continue straight and went into the +05 section at about 700-750 for about maybe 15 seconds before I was able to see the screen and quickly descended to under 500. The problem is that that area that I got myself into is not at sea level like the area to the south east. So I was literally dodging a couple of towers and had to split 2 hills at about 200 AGL. At one point thought about just climbing and intentionally busting Bravo to stay safe. I knew there was no actual danger from Newark as the planes were behind me (4L/4R), so it would've just been a technicality.

Attached is a picture of the sectional. The black line was my intended route, but the red is what I'm pretty sure that I actually flew.

I was on 1200 squak, not talking to anybody, departed from untowered field. I didn't get FF on the way back. I didn't speak to anybody till I called JFK to check in while passing under their Bravo. I'm not sure what to do, if anything.
 

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Tom-D said:
Why should he raise attention to himself if no one noticed.?
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I don't think you quite understand the NASA form. It's anonymized by NASA before it goes into the system. The only way to use it as a get-out-of-jail-free card is to take the receipt they give you and declare, using that, that that particular report was you. FAA and NTSB don't get to know who you are, and NASA is supposed to forget as soon as they can.

Sure...I'm sure the system has holes in the privacy, but do you seriously expect that, if that were an option, they'd spend that capital on a simple Bravo bust?
 
Hmmm, I would probably do a downwind departure to avoid that shelf and tower then turn on course when I knew I could clear it.
 
Just a comment about using a TAC rather than a sectional when a TAC is available. Obviously the OP was operating in some messy airspace. I tend to get paranoid about Bravos maybe because I’ve seen/heard more than just a few incursions operating out of FTG which is adjacent to DEN.
 
Tom-D said:
Why should he raise attention to himself if no one noticed.?
Click to expand...


Reports sent to the ASRS are held in strict confidence. More than one million reports have been submitted to date and no reporter's identity has ever been breached by the ASRS. ASRS de-identifies reports before entering them into the incident database. All personal and organizational names are removed. Dates, times, and related information, which could be used to infer an identity, are either generalized or eliminated.
 
Absolutely. As others have said, ASRS is safe, confidential, and the best protection you can give yourself against anything stemming from the Bravo violation, since the violation was inadvertent. Its main purpose is to call attention to conditions affecting aviation safety, and it sounds like your report will do that as well.

The one thing I would be a little concerned about is 91.119. If you were under 500 AGL in cruise, then the feds might use that report to violate you and the ASRS would not protect you, since THAT violation would have been deliberate.
 
Tom-D said:
Why should he raise attention to himself if no one noticed.?
Click to expand...
1. He doesn't raise attention to himself (see second quote below). If he was noticed, his prompt submission of the form gets him out of trouble.
2. It is supposed to improve the system.

You should use the links below and educate yourself lest you continue to provide poor advice.

From https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/summary.html
PROGRAM BRIEFING
Summary
The ASRS is an important facet of the continuing effort by government, industry, and individuals to maintain and improve aviation safety. The ASRS collects voluntarily submitted aviation safety incident/situation reports from pilots, controllers, and others.

The ASRS acts on the information these reports contain. It identifies system deficiencies, and issues alerting messages to persons in a position to correct them. It educates through its newsletter CALLBACK, its journal ASRS Directline and through its research studies. Its database is a public repository which serves the FAA and NASA's needs and those of other organizations world-wide which are engaged in research and the promotion of safe flight.

Purpose
The ASRS collects, analyzes, and responds to voluntarily submitted aviation safety incident reports in order to lessen the likelihood of aviation accidents.

ASRS data are used to:

Identify deficiencies and discrepancies in the National Aviation System (NAS) so that these can be remedied by appropriate authorities.
Support policy formulation and planning for, and improvements to, the NAS.
Strengthen the foundation of aviation human factors safety research. This is particularly important since it is generally conceded that over two-thirds of all aviation accidents and incidents have their roots in human performance errors.
Click to expand...

https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/confidentiality.html says:
Reports sent to the ASRS are held in strict confidence. More than one million reports have been submitted to date and no reporter's identity has ever been breached by the ASRS. ASRS de-identifies reports before entering them into the incident database. All personal and organizational names are removed. Dates, times, and related information, which could be used to infer an identity, are either generalized or eliminated.

The FAA offers ASRS reporters further guarantees and incentives to report. It has committed itself not to use ASRS information against reporters in enforcement actions. It has also chosen to waive fines and penalties, subject to certain limitations, for unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations which are reported to ASRS. The FAA's initiation, and continued support of the ASRS program and its willingness to waive penalties in qualifying cases is a measure of the value it places on the safety information gathered, and the products made possible, through incident reporting to the ASRS.
Click to expand...
 
Tom-D said:
simply STFU and don't do it again.
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Also my recommendation. If nobody said anything when you called up JFK, than I wouldn’t worry about it. File a NASA if it makes you feel any better.
 
PaulS said:
Actually if he is in an ads b plane I'm pretty sure big brother can easily find him, do the form.
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IF is the key word there. There was no mention about being ADS-B equipped.

Truth is, as busy as NY airspace is, if it was just busted momentarily and didn’t create an IFR conflict than its very likely that nobody even noticed.
 
Two thoughts:

1. The OP is not a new pilot. I'm sure he is aware of the ASRS form and its purpose and benefits. Which leads me to...

2. The OP mentioned that he was under 500 AGL (just reread #1) so he was in fact cruising that low. I have to wonder if that was the (unspoken) reason for his conundrum, wanting to choose between filing an ASRS and the fact that it might incriminate him of violating another FAR. In that case, I agree - in this particular instance, filing an ASRS might not be the wisest thing to do. I can't think of a way to narrate the whole incident without admitting to a 91.119 violation in order to avoid operating further in the Bravo, and that violation would probably be construed as intentional.

So while I would normally agree that @Tom D 's advice to STFU is the worst possible advice to give, in this case it might be the best.

Edit: or, if you file the ASRS, be sure NOT to mention your altitude in the header. I'm not sure I would use it even if they try to violate you for busting the Bravo, but this is definitely a "condition affecting aviation safety", which was of course the original reason behind the ASRS program.
 
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orange said:
I'm pretty sure that I busted Newark Bravo today. But I'm not sure because I couldn't see the Ipad due to glare. The other thing is that the sectional is so congested in that area, I'm not sure where it goes from +12 to +08 to +05. If it happened, I know it's no excuse.

I departed Linden NJ (KLDJ) runway 9 to head back towards JFK. The airport is inside the +08 bottom shelf of Newark. TPA is 799. As you proceed east, it turns into +05. I was supposed to make a sharp 80-90* turn to the right (SE) to avoid it. But I made about a 30* turn and continue straight and went into the +05 section at about 700-750 for about maybe 15 seconds before I was able to see the screen and quickly descended to under 500. The problem is that that area that I got myself into is not at sea level like the area to the south east. So I was literally dodging a couple of towers and had to split 2 hills at about 200 AGL. At one point thought about just climbing and intentionally busting Bravo to stay safe. I knew there was no actual danger from Newark as the planes were behind me (4L/4R), so it would've just been a technicality.

Attached is a picture of the sectional. The black line was my intended route, but the red is what I'm pretty sure that I actually flew.

I was on 1200 squak, not talking to anybody, departed from untowered field. I didn't get FF on the way back. I didn't speak to anybody till I called JFK to check in while passing under their Bravo. I'm not sure what to do, if anything.
Click to expand...
1) File the NASA form. Follow the links in my other post. If nothing else, there is a condition relating to aviation safety that can be shared with others through the system.
2) As @PaulS said, I'd have chosen a routing to keep me clear, even without reference to the iPad.
3) I'd have climbed into the Bravo rather than dodge hills and towers. You may want to look up Cory Lidle. He realized he was going to enter KLGA bravo in NYC and tried to turn to avoid it. Hit a building.

Thank you for sharing. It's easy for us to second-guess from the safety of our computers instead of making real-time decisions. Better for us to think about it on the ground if the situation occurs to us.
 
I think in that situation, talking to EWR tower and getting Bravo clearance if possible, or filing IFR even, would be the safest course. Trying to navigate that airspace VFR would give me the willies.
 
NASA FORM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
File the NASA form.
What is included I the form can NOT be used against you.
Mention the altitude and put in subject that bravo leaves you below obstacle clearance requirements.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
 
azure said:
The one thing I would be a little concerned about is 91.119. If you were under 500 AGL in cruise, then the feds might use that report to violate you and the ASRS would not protect you, since THAT violation would have been deliberate.
Click to expand...

Kind of a catch-22 isn’t it? Why does the FAA provide that 500’ shelf if it’s not for flying through?
 
This has got to be a troll. If not the answer is not to file a NASA for, it's to hire an instructor .
 
That’s a hypothetical question ,you really didn’t bust class B. Did you?
 
tspear said:
File the NASA form.
What is included I the form can NOT be used against you.
Mention the altitude and put in subject that bravo leaves you below obstacle clearance requirements.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I haven't flown in that area, but what would be the purpose of indicating 500 AGL as the class B shelf if it is an illegal altitude? Could you not claim that you were still in the takeoff phase, so exempted from the minimum safe altitude rules?
 
I'm thinking the purpose of that shelf is for helicopter traffic, I would feel uncomfortable cruising through there at 400 feet, not many options.
 
PaulS said:
Actually if he is in an ads b plane I'm pretty sure big brother can easily find him, do the form.
Click to expand...
If they wanted him, they would have notified him by now, he would have known by the time the flight was over. That's why I asked if anyone talked to him? =. NO no one noticed.
 
Tom-D said:
If they wanted him, they would have notified him by now, he would have known by the time the flight was over. That's why I asked if anyone talked to him? =. NO no one noticed.
Click to expand...
My thoughts too.
 
If it makes you feel any better, the FSDO up there is apparently overwhelmed with the sole task of investigating and processing the daily violations of the RUUDY 6 at TEB.

I’d submit a NASA form, but I’d be surprised if they track you down.
 
PaulS said:
Actually if he is in an ads b plane I'm pretty sure big brother can easily find him, do the form.
Click to expand...
That is a good point. If you did bust the airspace and are ADS-B, then it makes it super easy for them to track you down.

If you weren’t ADS-B, it isn’t impossible to track you down, but a lot harder.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Are you joking or just that ignorant as to what ASRS does and doesn’t do?
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It will certainly place you under the microscope, When no one noticed the violation, I really doubt the tapes still exist. Now you want him to jump up and tell the world he screwed up?
 
I don't think I'd fly into or out of Linden without a IFR clearance. Its just to easy to end up in the OP's predicament there. Most of NY's bravo is pretty easy to navigate, but a uncontrolled airport in the middle of 3 big international airports is about as tough as it gets VFR.
 
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