I stood my ground.....

[jesse]

Which ones are which?

Typically the more laminar flow the wing, the higher the wing loading, the bigger the problem you're going to have with ice contamination. Think wings with high wing loading and high stall speeds.

Like anything in aviation, sometimes you can get away with it, and sometimes you can't. The details matter.

 

[steingar]

Thank goodness for hangars. I'm going to have more problems getting the engine warmed up this winter.

 

[Ted]

I'll repeat what I just said...and add more..since people don't seem to be getting that there are some wings you can ignore some frost on and there are some wings you'd be a damn fool to ignore frost on.

Most of the wings that the Alaska folks are being macho about you could cover in carpet and the damn thing would fly fine.

However there are some wings where ice contamination can really ruin your day. You'll melt it off, quite nicely, when you fireball the airplane after takeoff.

Jesse is absolutely correct.

The Aztec didn't care. I took off with frost on that many times. You could also land it with inches of ice with no problem and no discernible difference.

A Malibu I would never take off without it 100% clean.

Know thy plane. When in doubt, stay on the ground.

 

[Stewartb]

Serious question. How many of you guys own and use wing and tail covers for normal winter parking?

 

[Clark1961]

Serious question. How many of you guys own and use wing and tail covers for normal winter parking?

I rent a wing cover, it's called a hangar...

 

[Tom-D]

Serious question. How many of you guys own and use wing and tail covers for normal winter parking?

a little double sided carpet tape to hold a sheet of plastic cut to the size of the wing, will keep the frost off and it's easy to remove in the early AM, easy to roll up and store in your ramp box.

 

[Stewartb]

I've used visqueen and parachute cord when I had to. Blue poly tarps, too. I have three sets of wing covers that have different features and use all of them during an average winter month. Ice and frost are a way of life for some of us. Add snow, wind, cold, darkness... Reasons I spend part of my life in Texas!

 

[TommyG]

You should have really listened to the line guy that is a recreational pilot. He seems to be a smart guy.

 

[flhrci]

You should have really listened to the line guy that is a recreational pilot. He seems to be a smart guy.

I know. I am just a lowly CFI. What the heck do I really know any way?

David

 

[bobmrg]

Probably upper teens or in the 20's.

Like I said, this wasn't frost - it was large globs of what must have been frozen dew. And cold TKS fluid did nothing.

As an aside, none of the metal planes on the ramp had any ice on them at all. Not sure if the difference was the composite or the smoother surface on the Cirrus.

That's not frost, it is frozen dew. Frost looks like white velvet...eleventy-jillion little drag fences covering the entire surface, not bumps or globules.

Bob Gardner

 

[steingar]

Oh, and good on the OP. When I'm the pilot I make the go/no-go decision, and I really don't care what anybody else thinks about it. My six, my decision and that's it.

 

[petrolero]

I need to get some of that TKS fluid.

I could have used that on my Christmas 2012 trip to Dallas. I arrived at the airport on departure day to find snow with a layer of thin ice under it - all over the damn thing. I just had to suck it up and wait for the sun. I tried scraping or wiping it off but that was super slow and exhausting.

Every time since then I have gone into airports that have hangars available. The lazy people way.

 

[FastEddieB]

That's not frost, it is frozen dew.

Yes, it is frozen dew.

And that's what I called it in my first post to this thread.

 

[NoHeat]

I need to get some of that TKS fluid.
:

A lot of shops sell it. Bring an empty jug and they will fill it. About 2 gal jug would be plenty.

 

[Ted]

Dave, I would have a chat with the FBO owner about the line guy trying to push you into flying and then being specifically deceptive by moving the plane into the shade after you'd specifically said you wanted it in the sun (and he moved it there). If I were the owner, I'd want to know about that.

 

[Kritchlow]

You also should know that a wet airplane, whether in sun or shade, can refreeze. I would not pull a wet airplane into freezing temps and expect everything to be fine.

 

[ggroves]

The line guy is a recreationally licensed pilot and could not get what the problem was. Basically tried to gently coerce me into taking my two pax up.

Why does a line guy care, and why do you care what a line guy cares about? Seriously, he's there to do your bidding when it comes to fueling and moving aircraft. Treat him as such.


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[flhrci]

Why does a line guy care, and why do you care what a line guy cares about? Seriously, he's there to do your bidding when it comes to fueling and moving aircraft. Treat him as such.


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he is a recreational pilot so he should know but apparently his opinion differs and he did not exactly do what I wanted him to do since he refroze the melted frost into big droplets.

David

 

[ggroves]

he is a recreational pilot so he should know but apparently his opinion differs and he did not exactly do what I wanted him to do since he refroze the melted frost into big droplets.

David

Seek out his boss. Explain to him/her that a line guy is making safety decisions for you. Seriously, he is there to do what you ask him to, nothing more. Not a time to be overly considerate.


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[Wade M]

Why does a line guy care, and why do you care what a line guy cares about? Seriously, he's there to do your bidding when it comes to fueling and moving aircraft. Treat him as such.


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Disagree.

You treat him as a human. He's no better or worse than the proverbial you simply because he's a "line guy". Take the opportunity to educate him why his opinion was wrong or incorrect, but don't treat him disrespectfully because of his position of employment.

 

[petrolero]

Disagree.

You treat him as a human. He's no better or worse than the proverbial you simply because he's a "line guy". Take the opportunity to educate him why his opinion was wrong or incorrect, but don't treat him disrespectfully because of his position of employment.

Respectfully, he didn't say to treat the line guy with disrespect, he said to treat him "as such", meaning "as a line guy."

The point is that the line guy's opinion is moot. If the line guy knows of some (verifiable) facts pertinent to the flight then that's not opinion, that's fact and could be helpful. But he can (respectfully) have his opinion - but mine is the one that counts. I don't necessarily have time to educate him when I'm trying to make decisions and maintain safety of my flight but I will be as polite to him as he is to me.

 

[ggroves]

Disagree.



You treat him as a human.

I said nothing about mistreating him. He's there to provide Customer Service to pilots, not advice on flight safety. He's not your flying "caddy", telling you which club to use.

He disregarded a request to hangar or move the aircraft to the sun light. That is his job. It shouldn't be a negotiation.


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[Wade M]

Seriously, he's there to do your bidding when it comes to fueling and moving aircraft. Treat him as such.

This doesn't come across as the least bit chastising to you? Do your "bidding", "treat him as such"?

 

[ggroves]

This doesn't come across as the least bit chastising to you? Do your "bidding", "treat him as such"?

Bidding - ordering or requesting that someone perform an action? Treat him like he is there to provide customer services?

Um no. When did we stop requesting that people perform the jobs they are paid to do, in the roles they serve in? Why does everything get turned into class warfare?


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[Palmpilot]

Yeah, the real issue is what is his job description, and is he fulfilling the responsibilities of his job.

 

[petrolero]

This doesn't come across as the least bit chastising to you? Do your "bidding", "treat him as such"?

You're interpreting it as being impolite or something and I'm not sure why. But nowhere did he say that anyone needs to be impolite or not treat someone as "human" (your words). You're adding those concepts yourself.

The point is that the pilot expects the line guy to do his job competently. The line guy's job does not include making the PIC's go/no-go decision or offering ad hoc weather briefings. But if he does those things, the pilot shouldn't care. That doesn't say anything about how the PIC speaks to the line guy, it just says that he should not act upon the advice unless it contains some verifiable facts that the PIC didn't know.

Small talk is small talk, but above all the line guy is there to do his job, not mine. Grown-ups know this and respect the relationship. And it all has nothing to do with one's manner of speaking or feelings, etc.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

… & I was expecting your tale to end in a shooting!

 

[taters]

If I can see the rivets and its obviously not "contaminated" then a little hoar frost usually doesnt concern me too much...

But Jesse is damn right , the red line is much different on a Cirrus vs a Bonanza or Piper . It is the duty of the PIC to ensure safety of the flight and that includes knowing the limits of your airplane.

OP you made the right call, never exceed your gut feelings

 

[Zeldman]

How much personally-owned aircraft/remote area ski flying did you "Alaskan" bush pilots do?

I never flew a personally owned airplane in Alaska.

The C-206,207 would do fine with up to an inch of ice, but I did not make a habit of that. Seems like every winter I would hit a patch of icing that was too much. I could hold airspeed or altitude, but not both. Just land, knock off the ice and keep going. A frozen river would be a good place to land if nothing else was available.

The PA 31-350 flew well with ice. I landed once with 8 inches on the radar dome. I was out of elevator trim. Again, I did not make a habit of that.

I will not take the C-414, 421 out if the icing forecast is very thick or widespread. I had an elevator stall once while landing. Fortunately I was only a couple feet above the runway.

When you fly for a living in Alaska ice is inevitable. You deal with it or go home. Notice I did not say make a habit of flying in ice in a plane not authorized for flight into known icing. I always had an out and used it if I needed to, even if that meant spending the night in a remote village.

 

[rbridges]

Whether or not I did the right thing or not doesn't matter. I made the PIC decision I needed to make. Sometimes I second guess myself on cancelling flights, but this felt right to me. I hope all of us make good decisions like this.

David

That sums it up right there. If you're not sure or don't feel comfortable, don't do it.