i need clarification

[SupraPilot]

Hello,
i fly out of an airport in central NJ...so basically thsi question is for NE pilots who are familier with this area...
Here in wonderful NJ we have 2 AFB's right smack dab in the middle of the state...also they both have restricted airspace around them that pretty much stretches the whole width of the state except for a few miles on each side..
SO....I do alot of flying towards the south and southwest from my area and everytime i do this i always skirt around the edge of the restricted areas and most of the time it adds enough time to where i think it would be faster to drive...
so basically what i am asking is how can i take a direct route to the south from my airport...Do i just call up Mcguire App and ask them to fly through resticted airspace?? If this is the case, does that make me free to fly right over a major AFB...for some reason i cant see this being a good idea..
to make things more complicated there is another resticted area inside of a larger resticted area...
I sit here and study my sectionals and i always end up getting frustrated and just planning my trip around them adding useless minutes to my flight...
so if anyone is familier with the airplace i am talking about, please chime in and give me some insight as to what is and what isnt legal flying in this area..

also i am not IR pilot yet so plese dont tell me eveyrhting is easier when IFR..i already know this

thanks
Ant

 

[jesse]

I'm looking at the charts for the area now and McGuire appears to have a somewhat large alert area A-220. There are also two small chunks of restricted airspace: R-5001 and R-5002. Those are the only two restricted I see in the entire state.

You can fly through the alert area. They are established primarily as a warning that high speed jet traffic may be operating in the area. I would advise that you talk to McGuire Approach before entering. It's hard to see a small jet approaching you are a few hundred knots.

I really doubt you've ever get cleared through the Restricted airspace. But there is no reason to. It's small. Just fly in the alert area and be alert. Don't go into the restricted and save yourself some avgas by going around all of it. You are confusing the alert areas for restricted airspace. I would not hesitate to fly through the alert area but I would get on flight following with McGuire Approach before entering. I suggest you meet with a local CFI and get some instruction on the local airspace.

Take a look at:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0304.html
For some airspace review. Understanding airspace these days is important--your ticket depends on it.

I'm also just a guy from Minnesota. Talk to a local CFI.

 

[jesse]

Some more info...

The areas I drew red around are restricted airspace. Stay out of those.

The rest of the airspace is a large Alert Area with two military airports that are class D. They end at 2,600 FT MSL. You can fly over them above 2,600 FT. You might even be able to transit their airspace if you contact their tower. A local would know if they'll let you do this.

If I had to go southbound through this I would contact Mcguire approach and get flight following. I would fly slightly west of the Mcquire AFB. Or I'd fly east along the coast and cut through SW through the Alert area between R-5001 and R-5002.

Yeah this airspace might be a hassle. But it is pretty small so in perspective on a cross country it shouldn't be much of a problem. Are you flying WAY around all of this?

Best advice still--talk to a local cfi.

 

[SupraPilot]

Thanks for the replies..
this helps...I guess i just overlooked the A-220 and assumed that the R-5001 A&B was for the small resticted area and the alert area which i thought was a larger resticted area...

why am i under the impression that all class D airspace went up to 4000 ft. I am assuming now that the small box inside the class D ring is the top of that airport's class D..for example i can fly over trenton tower airspace at 2700 ft instead of 4000 ft like i always thought...

ok anyone else have any sugestions for flying in thsi area or tips on the routes they take
I did all my flight training in the MId west and there were no surprises there...just basic airspaces all spread out and easy to understand..then put me over here with busy airspace and sectional sharts that make your eyes bleed and i get confused very easily..plus out where i trained i never ever had to deal with resticted or military airspace, so if these are dumb questions that i should already know..you dont have to remind me

Thanks
Ant

 

[jesse]

Thanks for the replies..
this helps...I guess i just overlooked the A-220 and assumed that the R-5001 A&B was for the small resticted area and the alert area which i thought was a larger resticted area...

why am i under the impression that all class D airspace went up to 4000 ft. I am assuming now that the small box inside the class D ring is the top of that airport's class D..for example i can fly over trenton tower airspace at 2700 ft instead of 4000 ft like i always thought...

ok anyone else have any sugestions for flying in thsi area or tips on the routes they take
I did all my flight training in the MId west and there were no surprises there...just basic airspaces all spread out and easy to understand..then put me over here with busy airspace and sectional sharts that make your eyes bleed and i get confused very easily..plus out where i trained i never ever had to deal with resticted or military airspace, so if these are dumb questions that i should already know..you dont have to remind me

Thanks
Ant

Please. Talk with a CFI. They are cheap and a little bit of ground will really help you out.

 

[SkyHog]

Jesse's right, a good CFI for a familiarization flight around your area would help immensely.

There is no hard and fast rule regarding the dimensions of any airspace. I've heard 4 statue miles wide for all class D's, but I could point out dozens that are either bigger or smaller. There are odd shaped class c's and what not as well. The sectional is really the only way to be able to avoid that stuff.

You are not alone in your Restricted/Alert confusion, I've met many a pilot that avoids them, not because they don't want to avoid congested airspace, but because they believe they are not allowed in. I've also met many a pilot that thinks that even when Restricted airspace is cold they need permission to enter. Neither is true.

The only thing I don't like about the sectional charts up there is the color. Green makes them really hard to read, IMHO. The brown we have out here is much more clear.

 

[Steve]

Btw, Restricted airspace is not always "hot", call up the controlling agency (usually approach or center) and request the status. Often you can proceed direct, particularly on weekends and holidays, or toward the end of the fiscal year when the training budget at the AF/Navy/Army base is running low. Some "R's" are for live fire artillery air to ground and ground to ground, though, so always confirm prior to entering, like around Ft. Polk in Louisiana. Flying around Pensacola/Panama City can be intimidating, too, if you're not comfortable talking to approach on the radio. I do it routinely and they're always helpful. Be prepared to be vectored if they go active, though.

 

[SupraPilot]

well i am very comfortable talking to appch ect ect...communications is one of my strong points...
Also is it ok for me to call up in the air to find out if areas are active, or do the controllers prefer you do this on the ground before the flight??

I guess i just assume that being near any AFB is illegal...i hear too many horror stories of peopel wandering intio area they thought were ok to fly in ect ect...
I just think that with all the homeland security, GA aircraft wouldnt be allowed to fly anywhere near an AFB...especially a highly active one...
I guess the next flight i take is gonna be straight through the alert area right over the AFB...
and of course i am gonna call up appch...just so they can tell me if im about to get shot down or not...

Ant

 

[Steve]

Just be sure to call them before you get within 5 miles of the airspace. The position error on their radar scopes can be up to 3 miles so don't get them excited before calling.

well i am very comfortable talking to appch ect ect...communications is one of my strong points...
Also is it ok for me to call up in the air to find out if areas are active, or do the controllers prefer you do this on the ground before the flight??

I guess i just assume that being near any AFB is illegal...i hear too many horror stories of peopel wandering intio area they thought were ok to fly in ect ect...
I just think that with all the homeland security, GA aircraft wouldnt be allowed to fly anywhere near an AFB...especially a highly active one...
I guess the next flight i take is gonna be straight through the alert area right over the AFB...
and of course i am gonna call up appch...just so they can tell me if im about to get shot down or not...

Ant

 

[Nav8tor]

... I guess i just assume that being near any AFB is illegal...i hear too many horror stories of peopel wandering intio area they thought were ok to fly in ect ect...
I just think that with all the homeland security, GA aircraft wouldnt be allowed to fly anywhere near an AFB...especially a highly active one...
I guess the next flight i take is gonna be straight through the alert area right over the AFB...
and of course i am gonna call up appch...just so they can tell me if im about to get shot down or not...

Ant

I'm guessing that the restricted area near McGuire has more to do with Fort Dix Army base which is adjactent to McGuire. They probably do live ground fire operations there, hence the restricted area. Many military airfields are just like any other class D airspace except you can't land there without prior approval. Willow Grove for instance, which is about 25 miles west of McGuire, is five miles off the departure end of RW06 at KLOM. I routinely fly through their class D (after contacting the tower of course) and often the route of flight is directly over the runway. Dover AFB is another one in our area. Last Monday I flew from Southern Delaware to Northern Delaware and my route of flight took me across the Dover Class D. I flew above it at 2800 feet (the ceiling is 2500) and didn't have to contact the tower. I was in contact with Dover approach, but that was vountary for flight following purposes.

 

[KennyFlys]

Btw, Restricted airspace is not always "hot", call up the controlling agency (usually approach or center) and request the status. Often you can proceed direct, particularly on weekends and holidays, or toward the end of the fiscal year when the training budget at the AF/Navy/Army base is running low. Some "R's" are for live fire artillery air to ground and ground to ground, though, so always confirm prior to entering, like around Ft. Polk in Louisiana. Flying around Pensacola/Panama City can be intimidating, too, if you're not comfortable talking to approach on the radio. I do it routinely and they're always helpful. Be prepared to be vectored if they go active, though.

Ditto. The listing with "hot" periods is on the chart along with contact agency and frequencies. Even when they may be hot, you could get permission to fly through. Also, those times don't automatically mean it is hot. Those are definite times set aside but possibly no activity. If you notice Eagles Nest, it sits right in the middle of R-5002A which starts at the surface. Certainly, they are not trapped on the ground nor forbidden to go home.

 

[SupraPilot]

ok thanks guys...
About the eagles nest airport...at first when i looked at it i thought that same thing..but eagles nest is the airport just to the right outside of the resticted area...th airport inside the resticted is the national guard airport..but still i guess its a public airport and they cant be trapped on the ground

Ant

 

[poadeleted20]

FYI, it's Class C that usually goes to 4000 AGL -- Class D around towered airports normally goes only to 2500 AGL.

 

[SkyHog]

Nothing like reenforcing bad habits. Good job Ron.

I like the deletion of my post yesterday so it looked like you got the answer too. Real classy.

 

[SupraPilot]

FYI, it's Class C that usually goes to 4000 AGL -- Class D around towered airports normally goes only to 2500 AGL.

hmm well thats good to know...
So just to clarify this..i am gonna assume that on the sectional, the number in the box that is located inside pretty much every class D ring is the top of that airport's Class D airspace ..right??

Man i think its time for me to pull out my old Gleim books and start reviewing..
This is why taking time off of flying isnt good...the flying comes back quickly..but all the ground school stuff doesnt..

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I used to fly out of an airport with the alert area. It's there because there used to be lots of KC-10 activity at Mcguire. KWRI itself is no different than any other class D airport. They have their own approach radar (RAPCON), but you can deal with them like any other class D airport -- unless you want to transition their 5 nm circle, you don't even need to talk to them.

I believe R5001A&B are over the ranges at Ft. Dix. R5002 is where the A10's practice at low levels. It is frequently hot and I would stay well clear -- they sometime stray from the restricted area at high speeds and low altitudes. They also fire some very nasty 30mm canon rounds at a very high rate.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

hmm well thats good to know...
So just to clarify this..i am gonna assume that on the sectional, the number in the box that is located inside pretty much every class D ring is the top of that airport's Class D airspace ..right??

True. A "-" sign preceding the altitude means "to but not including".

 

[Danos]

well i am very comfortable talking to appch ect ect...communications is one of my strong points...
Also is it ok for me to call up in the air to find out if areas are active, or do the controllers prefer you do this on the ground before the flight??

Hey SuprePilot. The area over here is SUPER busy! There are Newark J.F.K and Laguardia and countless others scattered all over the place so I don't really like to fly without getting flight following and having that extra margin of safety. I get a kick out of looking at flightaware at rush hour and seeing all of the planes. And those are just the ones on flight plans! If you're leaving from a controled airport I find it easier to request it on the ground so that the controllers are expecting you. You can do it from the air but I find that it just makes the whole thing go a lot smoother.

"I guess i just assume that being near any AFB is illegal...i hear too many horror stories of peopel wandering intio area they thought were ok to fly in ect ect..."

I've gone to Atlantic City a few times from the north and always got an alert for Eagles Nest even tho I was well out of the way right off the shoreline. They should let you know but as with anyhting else CYA .

 

[poadeleted20]

FYI, it's Class C that usually goes to 4000 AGL -- Class D around towered airports normally goes only to 2500 AGL.

I have been reminded off-line by SkyHog that those are not hard and fast numbers, just the "standard" values. Be sure to check the sectional before trying to overfly, as some Class C/D airspace rises above those levels. The Class D vertical limit in hundreds of feet MSL is the number in brackets -- [28] means it goes to 2800 MSL, which may or may not be exactly 2500 AGL. Likewise, the Class C limit is presented as:

XX
YY

...where XX is the upper limit (which may not always come out to 4000 AGL) and YY the lower limit, also in hundreds of feet MSL. My main intent was to let SupraPilot know that there really is a reason he was thinking about 4000 feet, not to suggest that all Class C/D airspace goes to exactly 4000/2500 AGL. If this confused anyone, please accept my apologies.

 

[SupraPilot]

I used to fly out of an airport with the alert area. It's there because there used to be lots of KC-10 activity at Mcguire. KWRI itself is no different than any other class D airport. They have their own approach radar (RAPCON), but you can deal with them like any other class D airport -- unless you want to transition their 5 nm circle, you don't even need to talk to them.

I believe R5001A&B are over the ranges at Ft. Dix. R5002 is where the A10's practice at low levels. It is frequently hot and I would stay well clear -- they sometime stray from the restricted area at high speeds and low altitudes. They also fire some very nasty 30mm canon rounds at a very high rate.

your not kidding about the A-10's...ive seen these guys all over the place...i spend my summers down in LBI and ive seen these guys in formation about 50 ft off the water flying along the beach a few times too...scares the Sh#* outa you when they come past..
I think that there still is alot of KC-10 activity around the area..I see them alot..on the ground and in the air...I see them heading out over the ocean and back from there mostly

Ant

 

[flyingcheesehead]

ok anyone else have any sugestions for flying in thsi area or tips on the routes they take

It seems everyone is forgetting that this is airspace, which is THREE dimensional. On your sectional will be a list of special use airspaces on that sectional along with effective times, altitudes, and the controlling agency.

Looking at an expired New York sectional, A-220 is listed as surface to 4500 feet, 0800-2200 daily, with McGuire Approach as the controlling agency. So, if you go higher than 4500 feet, you have no worries. It still never hurts to call up McGuire for flight following.

R-5001A is surface to 4000 feet from 0600-2330 and by NOTAM. R-5001B is 4000-8000 feet from sunrise Friday to sunset Sunday. The controlling agency for both is New York Center.

I did all my flight training in the MId west and there were no surprises there...just basic airspaces all spread out and easy to understand..

Huh? Plenty of airspace in the midwest too. Just north of here we have a 3-segment MOA surrounding a 2-segment restricted area at a firing range. Over the lake there's a MOA and a restricted area. Plenty of D's, several C's, and our favorite Bravo airspace at Chicago. We have a TRSA at Rockford (there's at least a couple of them left in Michigan too), and farther to the west there's a very odd dual class C at Omaha, with one civilian and one military airport.

Bottom line: There's odd airspace everywhere. Know thy airspace. Just looking at the legend on a sectional should be VERY helpful to you.

Also is it ok for me to call up in the air to find out if areas are active, or do the controllers prefer you do this on the ground before the flight??

Yes, it's OK to call in the air if there's a controlling agency listed. They're the ones to call about the airspace you're interested in (ie, call NY Center for info about R-5001A/B). A few, like P-67 at Kennebunkport, ME (the elder Bush's residence) are marked "No A/G" (=no air to ground communications) so you'll have to avoid them. I think Prohibited areas like that are always "hot" anyway.

I guess i just assume that being near any AFB is illegal...i hear too many horror stories of peopel wandering intio area they thought were ok to fly in ect ect...

You can't land at an AFB, but some of them will let you shoot their approaches and as long as you comply with the rules for that particular class of airspace and comply with ATC instructions, you're good.

Not a "horror story" but I flew directly over Key West NAS last year on the way to KEYW (class D, I'd established 2-way comm way out as I was on flight following and had been handed off from Miami Center) and was told, directly over the field, to remain clear of Navy airspace. Uhh, guys, I'm already over the field in the airspace, where do you want me to go?

I just think that with all the homeland security, GA aircraft wouldnt be allowed to fly anywhere near an AFB...especially a highly active one...

No such restriction. The military is smart enough to know what actually constitutes a threat, and they know that GA is very far down the list.

I guess the next flight i take is gonna be straight through the alert area right over the AFB...
and of course i am gonna call up appch...just so they can tell me if im about to get shot down or not...

Remember that it's legal to do, if you're above their airspace. However, if you call them up, they can tell you to remain outside the lateral boundaries or something like that... And even though you've established 2-way communications as required to actually enter their airspace, you are also required to comply with ATC instructions.

 

[SupraPilot]

thanks for the replies again...
flyingcheesehead u helped me understand even better...but what i meant by the midwest airspaces was not that there wasnt any busy class C or B airspaces, or military areas, but rather they were more spread out..and they didnt overlap...my flight school was based in southern indiana/illinois area, so we did have a variety of airspaces to navigate but you had time in between to actually think.....

I kinda feel bad for people flying planes with No transponder or radios becasue its like flying through an obstacle course around here trying to weave and bob around airspace