I must be missing something...

EdFred

EdFred

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I just read through Subpart H of part 61, and here's the situation I present based on what I have read - or more specifically NOT read in part 61 subpart H

Let's say Gary Miesch and I go up in his Commander. Gary obviously has all the endorsements to ACT as PIC in the plane.
Scenario #1.

Gary asks me to do his flight review. He is PIC, and based on what I have read in 61, I can give him his flight review and sign him off even though I am not qualified to act as PIC in the plane.

Scenario #2.

Gary is gracious enough to let my dad hop in the left seat of his plane. Gary sits in the front seat of his plane and acts as PIC. I sit in the back seat and give instruction for a high performance endorsement - even though I don't have one.

Maybe I am missing something somewhere, but nowhere in part 61 under the limitations and privlidges of flight instructors does it say that I can not give an endorsement without holding that same endorsement in my logbook.

I have to be missing something - or is this the illogic of the FARs showing it's ugly head again?
 
N2212R said:
I just read through Subpart H of part 61, and here's the situation I present based on what I have read - or more specifically NOT read in part 61 subpart H

Let's say Gary Miesch and I go up in his Commander. Gary obviously has all the endorsements to ACT as PIC in the plane.
Scenario #1.

Gary asks me to do his flight review. He is PIC, and based on what I have read in 61, I can give him his flight review and sign him off even though I am not qualified to act as PIC in the plane.

Scenario #2.

Gary is gracious enough to let my dad hop in the left seat of his plane. Gary sits in the front seat of his plane and acts as PIC. I sit in the back seat and give instruction for a high performance endorsement - even though I don't have one.

Maybe I am missing something somewhere, but nowhere in part 61 under the limitations and privlidges of flight instructors does it say that I can not give an endorsement without holding that same endorsement in my logbook.

I have to be missing something - or is this the illogic of the FARs showing it's ugly head again?
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I think this is the one that will veto either of those senario's Ed. At least that is the way I read it. I know it does not specifically say anything about complex/HP endorsements, however those are limitations to your commercial certificate and therefore limit your CFI certificate. Hopefully one of the FAR guru's will straighten both of us out if this isn't correct.
Don- CFI, but still learning

§ 61.193 Flight instructor privileges.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to:
(a) A student pilot certificate;
(b) A pilot certificate;
(c) A flight instructor certificate;
(d) A ground instructor certificate;
(e) An aircraft rating;
(f) An instrument rating;
(g) A flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience requirement of this part;
(h) A practical test; and
(i) A knowledge test.
 
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Don -

I read that too, but the only limitations called out say nothing about CFI endorsements, except that I can't endorse myself for anything. I would think that the statement in red would prohibit it, but it only specifically calls out ratings - at least the way I read it. I can't give instruction in a sea plane w/o a CFI-S rating.

I, like you, await the definitive answer.
 
N2212R said:
Don -

I read that too, but the only limitations called out say nothing about CFI endorsements, except that I can't endorse myself for anything. I would think that the statement in red would prohibit it, but it only specifically calls out ratings - at least the way I read it. I can't give instruction in a sea plane w/o a CFI-S rating.

I, like you, await the definitive answer.
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The reason I know this won't fly is just like me trying to give tailwheel training without being endorsed for flying a tailwheel airplane. I am sure the catch is the "Authorized Instructor" part of the regs on who can give the required training. I am sure that someone who does not hold those endorsements can not be an "Authorized Instructor"
This is quoted from 61.1 the definition of "Authorized Instructor" . The privileges is the killer, without the endorsements, you don't have those privileges.

(2) Authorized instructor means—
(i) A person who holds a valid ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 or part 143 of this chapter when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;
(ii) A person who holds a current flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or
(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under SFAR No. 58, or part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority.

By the way, I like these searches for the regs, keep 'em coming. I really learn from the challenge.
Don
 
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you are just not seeing the whole pix, when you climb into the right seat of a hiperf airplane and the pilot in the left seat is not currently legal to act as PIC of a hiperf aircraft, then you are the PIC, you cant be unless you hold a hiperf signoff. without it you can not legally act as pilot in command. you as a CFI are required to be able to act as PIC of any aircraft that you give instruction in.
 
wesleyj said:
you are just not seeing the whole pix, when you climb into the right seat of a hiperf airplane and the pilot in the left seat is not currently legal to act as PIC of a hiperf aircraft, then you are the PIC, you cant be unless you hold a hiperf signoff. without it you can not legally act as pilot in command. you as a CFI are required to be able to act as PIC of any aircraft that you give instruction in.
Click to expand...

Then how can a CFI w/o a current medical give instruction? He can't act as PIC, but can still legally give instruction because there is a legal PIC on board already, just like I presented in both scenarios.
 
N2212R said:
Then how can a CFI w/o a current medical give instruction? He can't act as PIC, but can still legally give instruction because there is a legal PIC on board already, just like I presented in both scenarios.
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I was always under the impression that a CFI can only give instruction without a medical when the student is already legal to fly as PIC. So in that scenario, no one would be legal PIC.

Feel free to ignore me, I am a mere private pilot without even an IR.
 
Something else that you want to keep in mind when you become a CFI,

A number of years ago, 3 pilots came to be in a Piper Comanche on an IFR flight, the PPL in the left seat was working on his IFR but was no IFR rated, the Commercial pilot in the right seat was IFR, but not current in the Comanche, he was current IFR and the flight plan was filed in his name. In the back seat sleeping was CFI-A&I, who was not current on the gauges or in the comanche, I dont remember all of the details, but after a couple of missed approaches at an airport well below minimums, the aircraft crashed well short of its alternate, all on board survived, the airplane was destroyed, the FAA took punitive action, that was supported by the NTSB, can you guess who they fried for the crash????????

Aw cmon think real hard.
 
SkyHog said:
I was always under the impression that a CFI can only give instruction without a medical when the student is already legal to fly as PIC. So in that scenario, no one would be legal PIC.

Feel free to ignore me, I am a mere private pilot without even an IR.
Click to expand...

Not a student pilot - A pilot legal to ACT as PIC WITH passengers.
 
N2212R said:
Then how can a CFI w/o a current medical give instruction? He can't act as PIC, but can still legally give instruction because there is a legal PIC on board already, just like I presented in both scenarios.
Click to expand...

A cfi without a medical cannot give instruction under conditions where he would be required to act as PIC, no basic students, no actual IFR training, no multiengine students, I was without a medical for 7 years, been through that grinder
 
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wesleyj said:
Aw cmon think real hard.
Click to expand...

Don't have to, it was the CFI - but neither of your scenarios are the the situation I present. You are presenting cases where no one legal to act as PIC is in the front seat. I am. Please read the question again.
 
wesleyj said:
A cfi without a medical cannot give instruction under conditions where he would be required to act as PIC, no basic students, no actual IFR training, no multiengine students,
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To quote an ATP I know...

RTFQ!!!

Do I need to draw a picture?
 
N2212R said:
Then how can a CFI w/o a current medical give instruction? He can't act as PIC, but can still legally give instruction because there is a legal PIC on board already, just like I presented in both scenarios.
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Yea, that one always seemed weird to me. I was told it was because he was excercising the priviledges of his teaching certificate, not his pilot cert.

I edited my above post, I think I found the answer.
Don
 
When you climb into that airplane with a pilot not qualified to act as PIC, you have to be, if it is a TD, you must have TD endorsement, if it is complex, you must have a complex endorsement, if it is hiperf, you must have hiperf, because you are acting as PIC. On a BFR, you can give a BFR in any aircraft that you are qualified to act as PIC, I do a lot of TD bfrs because nobody else around here has the TD time
 
A picture - since you aren't seeing what I am saying.

This picture is for scenario 2. In scenario one the legal pic is still in the front seat. Let me repeat....

A LEGAL PIC IS ALWAYS IN THE FRONT SEAT!!!!
 

Attachments

N2212R said:
Don't have to, it was the CFI - but neither of your scenarios are the the situation I present. You are presenting cases where no one legal to act as PIC is in the front seat. I am. Please read the question again.
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Wait - if you're the CFI, and you do not have a HP endorsement, and the student (rated or not) also doesn't have an HP Endorsement, and the plane is a HP airplane, then who is qualified to be PIC?

edit: duh. The person in the right seat.

Can you instruct from the back seat in an airplane with 2 pilot stations?
 
SkyHog said:
Can you instruct from the back seat in an airplane with 2 pilot stations?
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As long as a legal PIC is in one of the front two seats.


Also think Citabria, Extra, Champ, Cub....two pilot stations and a back seat.
 
Sceneario 1, you cannot do the BFR, you are not qualified to act as PIC in that aircraft.

Sceneario 2, You cannt give instruction in that aircraft, you do not have the proper endorsements to serve as PIC, you cannot instruct another pilot who also does not have that endorsement and i assume that Gary ins not a CFI so he cant do it either, and if the airplane crashes, it will be gary that is in trouble, because neither you or your dad are legal in the airplane
 
wesleyj said:
Sceneario 1, you cannot do the BFR, you are not qualified to act as PIC in that aircraft.
Click to expand...

I don't have to act as PIC, Gary is still legal to act as PIC.


Sceneario 2, You cannt give instruction in that aircraft, you do not have the proper endorsements to serve as PIC, you cannot instruct another pilot who also does not have that endorsement and i assume that Gary ins not a CFI so he cant do it either, and if the airplane crashes, it will be gary that is in trouble, because neither you or your dad are legal in the airplane
Click to expand...

Again, I don't have to act as PIC to instruct. And I am looking for the regulation that states so. Because the ones I have read and Don highlighted do not explicitly state so.

Where is the reg that says a CFI has to ACT as PIC when there is a legal PIC on board? Hint: There isn't one.
 
So, Gary is rated in the airplane (HP in this example) and is also current. You and Gary agree that he will be PIC on this flight. You do not have a HP endorsement. Gary is PIC, you are giving instruction. Can you do this?

Am I reading the question correctly?

Here's another situation.... I have my TW endorsement. Ed does not. I ask Ed for a flight review. I am current in TW aircraft. I am PIC for this flight. Ed flys with me and signs off my FR. Legal? I think so, but am ready to be proven an idiot. (get in line)
 
gibbons said:
So, Gary is rated in the airplane (HP in this example) and is also current. You and Gary agree that he will be PIC on this flight. You do not have a HP endorsement. Gary is PIC, you are giving instruction. Can you do this?

Am I reading the question correctly?

Here's another situation.... I have my TW endorsement. Ed does not. I ask Ed for a flight review. I am current in TW aircraft. I am PIC for this flight. Ed flys with me and signs off my FR. Legal? I think so, but am ready to be proven an idiot. (get in line)
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Nope, Ed must have his to be an "authorized instructor" to do the FR in a tailwheel a/c. I had that question put to me by the FSDO guy in my CFI checkride. I got it right! Now Ed could do your FR in a tricycle airplane, sign you off and you are good to go in anything you are qualified to fly.
Don
 
Don Jones said:
Nope, Ed must have his to be an "authorized instructor" to do the FR in a tailwheel a/c. I had that question put to me by the FSDO guy in my CFI checkride. I got it right! Now Ed could do your FR in a tricycle airplane, sign you off and you are good to go in anything you are qualified to fly.
Don
Click to expand...
So how is that different from the HP question?
 
most of the regs, by themselves are somewhat ambiguous, however, in order to give dual instruction in any airplane, you must be qualified to perform the task you are instructing, as a PIC, and there are a lot of catches,

if you are a MEI you can give instruction in a MEL airplane, if you are not an MEI, the type on instruction you can give in a twin is limited to basically acting as a safety pilot for simulated IFR, because you are not qualified to act as PIC.,

If you are with a qualified pilot in a hiperf aircraft you can give instruction in advanced maneuvers for a commercial ride, you can give the same instrument as in a twin, but you cannot do actual ifr training and cannot sign him off for a commercial or instrument rating in that aircraft because you are not qualified to serve as PIC in that aircraft.

Basically to give BFRs or instruction for any rating or authourization you must be qualified to act a PIC of the aircraft that the instruction is being done in or the BFR is being conducted in.

You can only perform to the limits of your own qualifications if you aint qualified to do it yourself you cant teach or sign off on it.
 
If you really want to get into the regs and their shortcomings answer this,
you are a CFI with II and MEI, you do not have a complex or hiperf endorsement, can you do hiperf or complex endorsements?
 
wesleyj said:
Basically to give BFRs or instruction for any rating or authourization you must be qualified to act a PIC of the aircraft that the instruction is being done in or the BFR is being conducted in.
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And how exactly can I be qualified to act as PIC if I don't have a current medical?

And you CAN instruct without having a current medical!
 
If you do not have a current medical, you cannot act as PIC, you cannot give instruction to pilots that are not qualified to act as PIC on their own, you cannot give actual IFR training, you can give dual for and signoff Commercial and CFI students, again only if they are qualified to serv as PIC in the aircraft being used,

Basically it comes down to the part of the regs, that says you or someone in the aircraft must be qualified to act as PIC, if it aint the student then it has to be you,
 
wesleyj said:
Basically it comes down to the part of the regs, that says you or someone in the aircraft must be qualified to act as PIC, if it aint the student then it has to be you,
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I do have someone legal to act as PIC. Did you not open the picture?
 
yes I saw the pix, but, you are not legal to be PIC in that aircraft, therefore you cannot give instruction, therefore you cannot signoff on the hiperf, the person in the right seat may be qualified as PIC but not as CFI, you are for the FAA record purpose the CFI, and you are not qualified to do the signoff. so you cannot do it, comes back to basic currency qualifications, if you are not current to operate the A/C as PIC, you are not legel to perform as CFI in that situation.
 
wesleyj said:
yes I saw the pix, but, you are not legal to be PIC in that aircraft, therefore you cannot give instruction, therefore you cannot signoff on the hiperf, the person in the right seat may be qualified as PIC but not as CFI, you are for the FAA record purpose the CFI, and you are not qualified to do the signoff. so you cannot do it, comes back to basic currency qualifications, if you are not current to operate the A/C as PIC, you are not legel to perform as CFI in that situation.
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Based on what you say...since I am not legal to ACT as PIC then..... I have to throw out your whole assessment because in this situation:

Fixed gear 180hp nosewheel - pilot is is current in all areas
CFI has expired medical but current CFI certifcate.

The CFI is legal to give instruction, so your ranting about "not being able to act" is bogus, and your whole argument crumbles with it.

repeat with me.....

A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
A CFI does not need to act as PIC to give instruction.
 
Ed its is pretty simple. All of your scenarios will be made legal by performing them on a treadmill.
 
You havent paid any attention to anything that i have said.

listen close, at least one person, the student or the CFI have to be qualified to act as PIC for all phases of the intended flight, it cannot be a non cfi third party, it has to be one of the principles, if you have no medical, you can instruct right up to the point that your student is no longer able to function as PIC, flight into actual and he has no IFR,

You cannot instruct basic students, multiengine students or Instrument students under actual conditions, without a medical, because neither of you is qualified as PIC.

if your student and you do not have a hiperf,in a hiperf aircraft, whether you have a medical or not, you cannot instruct, if you have a hiperf but no medical you cannot instruct,

if your student and you do not have a complex, in a complex aircraft , whether you have a medical or not you cannot instruct, if you have a complex but no medical, you cannot instruct,

if your student and you do not have a TD, in a TD aircraft, whethery you have a medical or not, you cannot instruct, if you have a TD but no medical, you cannot instruct.

IF YOU ARE NOT LEGAL IN THE AIRCRAFT BEING USED, AND NEITHER IS YOUR STUDENT, YOU CANNOT INSTRUCT,

WITHOUT A MEDICAL, YOU CANNOT DO A HIPERF, TD, OR COMPLEX, BECAUSE IN ORDER TO DO SO YOU MUST BE ABLE TO ACT AS PIC,

if you intend to be a CFI, you had better spend some time either with a CFI that you will listen to, or with the FSDO and get it straight, because i fear that you are embarking on this journey with an extemely arbitrary and inflexible attitude,
 
wesleyj said:
You havent paid any attention to anything that i have said.

listen close, at least one person, the student or the CFI have to be qualified to act as PIC for all phases of the intended flight, it cannot be a non cfi third party, it has to be one of the principles, if you have no medical, you can instruct right up to the point that your student is no longer able to function as PIC, flight into actual and he has no IFR,

You cannot instruct basic students, multiengine students or Instrument students under actual conditions, without a medical, because neither of you is qualified as PIC.

if your student and you do not have a hiperf,in a hiperf aircraft, whether you have a medical or not, you cannot instruct, if you have a hiperf but no medical you cannot instruct,

if your student and you do not have a complex, in a complex aircraft , whether you have a medical or not you cannot instruct, if you have a complex but no medical, you cannot instruct,

if your student and you do not have a TD, in a TD aircraft, whethery you have a medical or not, you cannot instruct, if you have a TD but no medical, you cannot instruct.

IF YOU ARE NOT LEGAL IN THE AIRCRAFT BEING USED, AND NEITHER IS YOUR STUDENT, YOU CANNOT INSTRUCT,

WITHOUT A MEDICAL, YOU CANNOT DO A HIPERF, TD, OR COMPLEX, BECAUSE IN ORDER TO DO SO YOU MUST BE ABLE TO ACT AS PIC,

if you intend to be a CFI, you had better spend some time either with a CFI that you will listen to, or with the FSDO and get it straight, because i fear that you are embarking on this journey with an extemely arbitrary and inflexible attitude,
Click to expand...




And the exact reg that states this is where? Which is the question I orginally asked and you have yet to answer. You have yet to produce a regulation that supports your opinion. Where is it?

I'm not just going to take the word of someone who took 15 posts to understand there was actually a legal PIC on board.

Yeah, that's going to hold up during a check ride.
"Ed, where does it say..."
"Oh some CFI on a message board said so."

I asked a question for which I wanted an answer, not an opinion.
 
Hate to rain on your parade, Ed. The current version of the Faq61 file, John Lynch, AFM300 reads:

Question: Is a person who is serving as a safety pilot for a flight under simulated instrument flight on an IFR flight plan required to hold an instrument rating if that person is merely only acting as a safety pilot? Notice, I did not say the person is acting as a pilot in command or as a second in command. The person is only onboard to act as a safety pilot. But the flight is going to be performed under IFR (instrument flight rules) and the pilot has filed an IFR flight plan.

Answer: Ref. § 61.55(d)(4); § 61.3(e); § 91.109(b); A safety pilot who is not acting as the PIC is not required to meet the instrument rating requirements of § 61.3(e). The instrument rating requirements of § 61.3(e) are PIC requirements.

As per § 61.55(d)(4), the rule provides an exception to the SIC pilot qualification requirements of § 61.55(a)(2) for being required to hold an instrument rating.

However, for the purpose of clarifying an incorrect statement in your question, you stated the person is not acting as either the pilot in command or as a second in command. That is not possible. A safety pilot is a required pilot flight crewmember [See § 91.109(b)]. Therefore, a safety pilot must either be acting as the PIC or as the SIC.

Additionally, in the preamble discussion in the “Pilot, Flight Instructor, Ground Instructor, and Pilot School Certification Rules; Final Rule” on page 16237, middle column, of the Federal Register (62 FR 16237; April 4, 1997), the FAA stated that a safety pilot is a required crewmember. The FAA stated the following in that preamble discussion:

“. . . In response to AOPA’s comment regarding instructors who act as safety pilots not being required to have a medical certificate, the FAA notes that § 91.109 specifies that a safety pilot is required to conduct simulated instrument flight, which makes the safety pilot a required crewmember . . . .”

Therefore, a safety pilot is either a PIC “flightcrew member” or an SIC “flightcrew member” and either way “. . . makes the safety pilot a required crewmember . . . .”
{Q&A-529a}

I'm looking for the one that references instruction but it reads the same, exactly. This is October 2005's update.
 
If I understand all of this correctly, Ed is pointing out that there is no FAR that says that a flight instructor must in position to manipulate the controls.

At first I thought this was ridiculous, but after a few minutes of FAR searching, the closest I could come to was FAR 61.195(g). Interesting scenario to think about; there is a legal PIC in a control position, a student in a control position, and a flight instructor that is not in a control position and not acting as PIC.
 
Bruce -

Not quite the exact situation, in that FAQ there needs to be a legal PIC on board because they are conducting under IFR. In my situation there is a legal PIC on board.

I am not saying that I AM authorized to do what I am asking, I just want to see the regulation that states it.

Pssst - Don't let Ed G see that you brought out the FAQ file. :D
 
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And here is your tailwheel question:



QUESTION: The situation is a flight instructor has asked the question whether he can give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane and yet he has not previously met the additional training requirements for operating a tailwheel airplane [i.e., § 61.31(i)].

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(2); § 61.56(c)(1); No, a flight instructor cannot give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane unless he has complied with § 61.31(i). Per § 61.56(c)(1), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . by an authorized instructor . . . .” Per § 61.1(b)(2)(ii), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate . . . .” The flight instructor would not be considered an “authorized instructor” for giving a flight review in a tailwheel airplane.
{Q&A-551}
 
bbchien said:
And here is your tailwheel question:



QUESTION: The situation is a flight instructor has asked the question whether he can give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane and yet he has not previously met the additional training requirements for operating a tailwheel airplane [i.e., § 61.31(i)].

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(2); § 61.56(c)(1); No, a flight instructor cannot give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane unless he has complied with § 61.31(i). Per § 61.56(c)(1), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . by an authorized instructor . . . .” Per § 61.1(b)(2)(ii), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate . . . .” The flight instructor would not be considered an “authorized instructor” for giving a flight review in a tailwheel airplane.
{Q&A-551}
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Thanks Bruce. That is from the FAQ too I assume?

Of course the FAQ isn't...Where's Ed G? LOL

I think I will write AGL-7 tomorrow about it as well.
( I plan to have all my sign-offs with the exception of the HA before I get the CFI. I found a 182 in Ionia for rent.)
 
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