Oh, I'd never put it on the FA- they have enough already. This gets sorted before the plane leaves the gate.
Passengers who don't fit in their seat know they don't fit; they can't fit, I expect the airline to fix it.
I hate airlines [rant]
- Thread starter Mtns2Skies
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Oh, I'd never put it on the FA- they have enough already. This gets sorted before the plane leaves the gate.
Passengers who don't fit in their seat know they don't fit; they can't fit, I expect the airline to fix it.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
I disagree completely. What about the tine to drive to the commercial airport, the hub and spoke crap, the waiting for bags, etc. Could just be me, but my job is managing people and I work diligently to not have "task" and as such that "productive" time in 1st really isn't.
Everskyward
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Personally, I can see where you are coming from, but I think you're missing the fact that many here on this board get some pleasure from flying themselves. So 5 hours as a passenger does not equal 5 hours flying themselves. After all, they've already made that big investment in an airplane, or at least a certificate.
Kritchlow
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Any the time driving to the GA airport, getting weather briefs, flight planning, prefilghting...
Kritchlow
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Clearly you are correct... but that wasn't the real question as I understood it. The question was more about productivity of time.
I totally agree about the fun and recreational factor if that was the question.
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
What is F ??
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
What don't you understand about the fact that if I have a meeting in another state GA makes that a one day deal, but the airlines it is two or three?
When you fly, who sits in back?
Kritchlow
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Not sure I understand your question.
Clark1961
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If you think airport and airplane time is productive I have a bridge for sale just for you.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
I'm assuming you fly pax around that aren't part 121? Why do they do it?
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
X100
Kritchlow
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I see it nearly every day of my life.
Kritchlow
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No... I fly part 121.
Dang, under 400 miles I can usually beat the airlines by driving, let alone GA flying - I know, depends on hub schedule, interstate highways, etc., and it's easy to cherry pick a city pair that makes the airlines look worse. . .but from DC to Jacksonville NC, GA first, drive second, airlines the last, slowest choice. . .
Kritchlow
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Lol!!! But you can't sleep while driving, so that's my point!! It's unproductive time!!
Clark1961
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It's a really nice bridge and the price is attractive. Would you like to see a picture of it?
Kritchlow
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Hmm... Calling you.
Apparantly you are saying what I see thousands of times per month is some sort of mirage??
Yes. Show me your proof.
Clark1961
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<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/brooklyn bridge" target="_blank"><img src="http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab115/kjana_2009/brooklyn_bridge_wtc.jpg" border="0" alt="brooklyn bridge photo: Brooklyn Bridge brooklyn_bridge_wtc.jpg"/></a>
See it's a really big bridge with lots of traffic in a big city. Think of the toll money you'll make. I'll give you a low enough price that you'll make money the very first year.
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
I'm going with @James_Dean on this debate. It does depend on where you are flying and what you are flying. If you have a capable most weather (no such thing as all weather) airplane you can beat the airlines door to door for much of your flying in the country with a high dispatch rate.
Yes, there are a lot of variables. If you live in the suburbs of a big city like myself, it takes 10 min door to hangar vs 45 min door to parking garage at the major airport. When you get to the hangar you have your plane that is how you left it last making the pre-flight and go very streamlined (weather briefs and flight planning have been streamlined by technology). When you get to the major airport you have to find parking, make your way to the terminal, get in line, check baggage, get in line, go through TSA (the bonus here is stripping down and getting felt up), and get to the gate early enough to ensure all the line up and waits don't make you miss the flight. Private plane gets you to the small airport exactly (or very close) to where you want to end up. Airlines, many times with the hub and spoke system, get you to another major airport, deplane, make your way to the other gate and wait because you can't schedule too tight of a connection for risk of missing it. Then you make it to a larger airport that many times requires you to drive 45 min or more to where you wanted to end up.
Long story summarized, if you have a capable twin or well equipped single, you can and many times will beat the airlines which saves you time in your life. As James said, many times you actually save day's off of travel. You don't have to deal with TSA, airport parking, airline schedules, etc. I feel more refreshed flying myself when I get to my destination than I do after the hassle of airline travel.
Of course this is all just one guys .02 cents.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
When I owned my plane, I too did not want to waste time on the spam cans in the sky. Employer would not let me, even after I showed them a cost savings for the trip in terms of time and money. Something about insurance.
Had a trip to Carbondale, would have been 6-7 hours in my Cherokee 180. Instead, I had the privilege of:
Getting up at "too dark o'clock" to drive an hour to Tampa from Sarasota, spending 2 hours in the airport to get on a plane and flying two legs to St Louis, spend the night there and get up the next morning to drive 2 hours to Carbondale, one way.
It cost the company twice as much money as it would have to just let me fly my 180 there direct. Not to mention on the way home I kept thinking: "man I could be home right now" as I did the same thing in reverse...
@Kritchlow just because you CAN work on a plane doesn't mean you're going to be in the proper mindset to be AS effective. Not everyone can afford to fly first class or business everywhere. Which means you roll the dice on whether or not you'll be sitting next to:
1 - A crying baby
2 - Someone who won't stop talking to you
3 - Someone who hasn't bathed in 3 months
etc...
I'll tell you what, I had plenty of time to work on the way home from Carbondale as I wasn't the one driving or flying and I got ZERO things done because I hated the whole trip.
If I could, I'd fly myself anywhere instead of wasting time on commercial travel.
Had a trip to Carbondale, would have been 6-7 hours in my Cherokee 180. Instead, I had the privilege of:
Getting up at "too dark o'clock" to drive an hour to Tampa from Sarasota, spending 2 hours in the airport to get on a plane and flying two legs to St Louis, spend the night there and get up the next morning to drive 2 hours to Carbondale, one way.
It cost the company twice as much money as it would have to just let me fly my 180 there direct. Not to mention on the way home I kept thinking: "man I could be home right now" as I did the same thing in reverse...
@Kritchlow just because you CAN work on a plane doesn't mean you're going to be in the proper mindset to be AS effective. Not everyone can afford to fly first class or business everywhere. Which means you roll the dice on whether or not you'll be sitting next to:
1 - A crying baby
2 - Someone who won't stop talking to you
3 - Someone who hasn't bathed in 3 months
etc...
I'll tell you what, I had plenty of time to work on the way home from Carbondale as I wasn't the one driving or flying and I got ZERO things done because I hated the whole trip.
If I could, I'd fly myself anywhere instead of wasting time on commercial travel.
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Yeah, flying coach is almost as bad as taking the Greyhound. Same clientele, just a little faster. If I can drive in 6 or less, no brainer, drive. Between 6-8, driving still wins sometimes vs the airlines.
That's the rough estimate I use for the SR22 and Baron; flying is about 1/3 the drive time.
When we visit our daughter in Lexington we fly; ~6 hours drive or 1:45 flying. When we visit our daughter in Columbia, SC we drive; ~3 hours drive or 1 hour flying. Between pre-flight and getting a rental it's just not worth it flying.
Everyone's donut is unique, and is to be celebratedSeriously. my donut is drive and airline centric, because I live near big roads and the world's busiest airport. If it's a multi hour drive to the nearest airline airport and that airport has few flights, GA works out a lot better. Or, if like @comanchepilot if you can skip hellish traffic, or if the place you're going to has only slow roads or a ferry, then GA looks a lot better. Plus it helps to have a faster airplane. Whatcha flying, MistakeNot?
Yep. Distance from the GA and commerical airports, airplane speed and proximity to interstates makes the donut have different inner and outer circles.
I would not like to plan arriving at Hartfield only 1:15 before my flight as you mentioned in an earlier post. Between traffic issues and security that gets a bit tight for me. YMMV. Pre-9/11 I did it, but not so much now, and then only low traffic times. Getting to the door with 1:15 before departure and it's fine as long as security doesn't go to hell; and the lines have been getting better.
I thought you were up front flying the plane, with a locked security door. So, how do you see (much less measure) all of that productivity going on back there?
Which is better depends upon a lot of things. James visits multiple sites on his trips, the vast majority of which are in very rural areas. That's not conducive to being done well on commercial flights. In his scenario GA is far more effective and productive.
Heck, we've taken spring break trips with the kids that were doable because we were flying private. Flying commercial or driving would have taken far too much time. One such trip was fly Atlanta to Orlando for a few days in Disney World, then Fort Lauderdale for a few days at the beach, then stop in at Sarastota to have lunch and spend the afternoon with my MIL and then back home in Atlanta.
For the average business person going to a meeting the question gets more complicated. There's far less productive time back there in coach than you think; or even in business class (which most businesses won't pay for). Can't have the laptop out until 10,000' and then it has to be put away on descent. Lots of loud and nosy fellow passengers, and FA's stopping by to give you 2 oz of soda and 3 pretzels (since we can't have peanuts anymore), then pick-up the trash, and then for descent to get everyone to put their seat up. Ugh! With everyone around there are some topics/conversations that can't be had, so word doesn't leak out.
One of the things I tell my co-workers the difference between flying commerical and private is, when I'm flying commercial I have to find the car rental desk and then go find my rental car. When I fly private, my rental car finds me. Someone at the FBO drives it up next to the plane and will help move luggage from the plane to the car.
We just did a ski trip a couple of weeks ago and I stood outside for 25 minutes waiting for the shuttle that took me to the rental car place; in Denver. Then another line, and time at the counter as they try to get me to upgrade the vehicle or buy more insurance. I just love that productivity.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
How can I prove to you that my life has improved and I get more work done after I switched to GA from the airlines?
I can really only offer two data points. The first is that my nights at home per year increased by about 40 after I switched to GA and the second is that my board is willing to pay the bill for me to fly. Both of those interested contingencies only really care that I'm where I need to be when I need to be there whether it is a band concert or a board meeting. With GA, I can mostly do both. Commercial makes it nearly impossible. Whether you can work in first is completely irrelevant as nobody that I'm aware of gets anything really productive done in that time. Can I catch up on some busy work? Sure. Am I moving the ball forward? Certainly not.
My last trip was from NW Iowa to Columbus, OH and is a good example. I was going to fly out Monday with a co-worker, but he was having intestinal issues and we decided to scrub. I had a board meeting Tuesday morning so we decided to leave asap that was done which was a two hour window. We took off at 12:00pm and landed in Columbus at 3:10 and were in the office by 3:45. Had a production meeting from 4 - 5:30 and then dinner with clients that evening. Meetings all day Wednesday and we left as soon as we were done at 5:45pm. We were airborne at 6:45 and I was in bed by 10:00. It was a very productive trip for both of us and we were only gone from home for 33 hours.
The only Delta flights that would come close(assuming we would've been able to rebook) for me would've had me leaving for the airport at 3:30pm on Tuesday for an arrival in Columbus at 11:45pm and leaving for the airport at 3:30 on Wednesday to get home at 1:00am, and its a $2,100 ticket. That would've given me seven hours of office time, no client dinner, a wrecked night of sleep, and gone from home for the same 33ish hours. From a productivity standpoint it isn't even close, and this is what I live with every week. The airlines made it extremely difficult to have that flexibility. Delta is ok, but the change fees are ridiculous. United is a little easier to change flights, but they treated me like garbage. One more night in that stupid Hilton at ORD and I was going to go nuts.
Ted
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I've been doing GA with piston twins for over 8 years now. While my dispatability and reliability has not been 100%, it's been far better than the airlines, and I've had enough notice when there are issues generally to reschedule. Plus it's given me lots of flexibility.
For personal travel we rarely use airlines. Sure there are times when it makes sense, but we don't use it for family trips, even (especially) when traveling long distances. The hassle of the airports with 3 kids are enough that we go GA or we don't go. At Christmas we did a GA trip to Florida, NYC, and home again (Kansas). We've done GA trips to Newfoundland, Canada (in February), although the last time we did that was when we lived in Ohio. We plan to do that again next summer.
My flying is a bit odd since I will fly 16 hours in a weekend for Cloud Nine, but GA can still be a reliable means of transportation for long distances. You do need to have a capable aircraft, though.
For personal travel we rarely use airlines. Sure there are times when it makes sense, but we don't use it for family trips, even (especially) when traveling long distances. The hassle of the airports with 3 kids are enough that we go GA or we don't go. At Christmas we did a GA trip to Florida, NYC, and home again (Kansas). We've done GA trips to Newfoundland, Canada (in February), although the last time we did that was when we lived in Ohio. We plan to do that again next summer.
My flying is a bit odd since I will fly 16 hours in a weekend for Cloud Nine, but GA can still be a reliable means of transportation for long distances. You do need to have a capable aircraft, though.
Everskyward
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I think everyone has their own cost/benefit equation. If you live in and travel to hub cities, airlines are convenient and cheaper. Distance and the capability of your airplane matter a lot too. Most enjoy the experience of flying themselves more than sitting in the back of an aluminum tube. Some find this more annoying than others. I don't have any problem sleeping and I rarely have obnoxious seatmates. Driving and flying your own airplane have their advantages over airlines. You can leave on your own schedule, and delays are usually of your own making. However, if you only have one airplane, a mechanical problem could delay your trip for a long time unless you find an alternate source of transportation. Finally (and this was the big thing for me), to invest in your own airplane, you need to think you would use it enough to justify the cost. I never could.
paflyer
Final Approach
And that is why the airlines and their representatives want to kill GA as we know it.
Larry in TN
En-Route
Very few, if any, passengers use the airlines for a 30 minute flight. Those flights are for connecting passengers who are coming from/going to cities that are much farther away.
Every airline has a policy for customers-of-size (COS) passengers. Check the website of your airline to find out their procedure. The policies generally require that the COS has to be moved or rescheduled on another flight. The details of how the COS can buy a second seat, and when buying one is required, varies. If seated next to a COS who impinges on your space, contact the F/A. If the F/A won't do anything ask for an agent. If the agent won't fix it ask for the airline's Complaint Resolution Officer (CRO) who is required to be available by the Air Carrier Access Act.
Airline travel is complex. The less often you do it the more difficult it is. Those who travel regularly quickly learn the system and most of the stress is avoided. Traveling often also leads to elevated Status levels which provide additional benefits that further reduce stress and remove common irritations.
I see plenty of passengers who are able to sleep or get work done in economy seats. I see plenty of others who don't, for whatever reasons.
Mistake Not...
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Everyone's donut is unique, and is to be celebrated
A mooney. I plan for 150kts. Pretty close most of the time. But it's not that much faster than a 172 over short distances. Where it shines is if the winds are against me. I still have a reasonable ground speed... 172, somewhat less.
Flying GA has other perhaps less important though still significant advantages. Not the least of which to me is that I can have my pocket knife and bottle of shampoo, and no one touched my junk as I boarded.
comanchepilot
En-Route
unless your state is RI, MA, CT, VT, etc . . .then driving is alot faster!!
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
unless your state is RI, MA, CT, VT, etc . . .then driving is alot faster!!
You must not have spent much time in Texas....
FormerHangie
En-Route
I have the same experience with driving, much less than 500 miles I don't fly commercially. For the whole family, it's too expensive anyway. I've never ridden Greyhound, but I've been to the bus station, and I think I'll stick with Delta rather than Greyhound.
I spoke with a couple of my coworkers who fly frequently, they said on a Thursday morning at 6:30 that an hour is enough. I'll be taking MARTA to the airport so I won't have to deal with traffic.
I can't sleep sitting up and I can't read in a moving vehicle, which made that LAX-SYD flight I took a while back pretty dull. I do see people typing away at their laptops, and I assume they're working. I couldn't do what I do on an airplane, there are too many distractions, but if it were something simple like answering email, that I could do. Probably the most obnoxious seatmate I've had was a woman who started doing her nails, but she figured out pretty quickly that was a bad idea and put the nail polish away. I hope that TSA would confiscate that stuff now, it's not dangerous but it is obnoxious.
I hear a lot on here about how uncomfortable it is to fly on an airline, but let's be realistic, a lot of our airplanes are pretty tight as well, and most aren't air conditioned, and are quite loud. Plus, if you have to go to the bathroom you're out of luck. My wife and daughters have never been in a GA airplane, so I don't know they'd react to flying in one, but they all have been up in a hang glider
and rather seemed to enjoy it.
Now that they're teenagers I've offered each of them a discovery flight, but neither is interested.
I know Ted uses his plane for long distance travel with his family, but I can't see any way to avoid the human mailing tube if you're traveling far. We took a trip ATL - SFO a couple of years ago. I couldn't imagine trying to fly a Skyhawk or Skylane 2000 nm westbound in the spring. That would be a really expensive trip, first for all that aircraft rental, them for me to find a new place to live after my wife threw me out!
As long as we don't impact on them they don't care about us. The number of people who are owner flying for business on any given day is so small I doubt it would fill five jetliners. Go out on FlightAware some morning and look at the count of those airplanes that are likely owner flown for business, it's really very low.
One other thing I haven't seen mentioned but is appropriate right now with the weather moving in to the northeast. Sometimes with the airlines, cancellations/delays in the northeast will cancel/delay flights elsewhere. I have seen this happen frequently back when I had to fly commercial a lot.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I would enjoy that. In fact, back in the day, before I had taken any flying lessons, I thought hang gliding would be cool. I still do.My wife and daughters have never been in a GA airplane, so I don't know they'd react to flying in one, but they all have been up in a hang glider
and rather seemed to enjoy it.
FormerHangie
En-Route
So you're suggesting people drive instead?
Yeah, I almost commented on that. That early in the morning it is pretty quiet. A bit busier on Mondays as some of the road warriors get going early.
We took Marta to the airport once when we lived in Buckhead. Once was enough. It was the weekend though, so much slower than during the week.
Love the hang glider pics!
I have more room in a SR22 than in coach. I'm lucky, my family likes to fly private. My wife is a little motion sensitive and can't read in a car, but is fine in a plane (big and small), only the drop part of the bumps bother her.
Ted travels a bit faster.
Even across th country is far at his speeds.
Ted
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To be fair, we wouldn't do that trip at 172/182 speeds, either. The 414 does 200 KTAS and is far more comfortable. Yes, it's expensive, but we enjoy it. For us getting there should be half the fun. When there was a question of the plane not being flyable for a family trip to New York (1200 miles by car) my wife's comment was "We'll drive before we fly commercial."
We're also both iron butt candidates, love GA, and really, really hate flying commercial. It's about personal priorities. But maybe I'll drive the semi to NYC just to parallel park it.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
Just have more kids. Makes the plane look even more reasonable.
We're going to Phoenix for spring break and Delta wants $800 per seat for the dates we want. It's not much of a stretch to fire up the engines to not spend $5600 for a god awful experience.