I got angry at CSRs today

DavidWhite

DavidWhite

Final Approach
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Forgive me PoA I have sinned.

I came into Denver a week ago today and filled out a form asking for a top off and tip tanks (since people forget the Six has them) they said they were topping it off that afternoon and I called this morning again to double check it was ready. "Yes sir it's ready to go" same guy I talked to last Tuesday.

I show up this afternoon after an exceedingly long day (I've been up since 5) and looked in the tanks and they hadn't been touched. I go inside and tell them I was told the airplane was ready to go - and it wasn't ready. I tell them to top it off and the tip tanks, I saw the fuel truck at the airplane and went to pay - 34.5 gallons. Not near enough. I told them I asked for the tip tanks to be topped off - 3 times in the last week. He said it was full and I was mistaken. So, I told him to follow me out to the airplane and we played the game of "find the gasoline" of course, the tips were almost dry as they were when I left them. He said they probably just filtered down to the mains. I asked how that could happen if the mains were full, and got a blank stare. 28 gallons later my tip tanks were full.

Good thing I visually checked the gas :rolleyes:
 
XJet next time you're at APA. Also, a tip for you.. ask how much fuel it took rather than if it was done. If they can't come up with a number then it either wasn't done or they don't have the sheet from that day readily available. That *should* trigger a visual check by someone, then if it wasn't done you'll probably never know..
 
You'll save a lot of aggravation and shouting if you just take their word for it, pay and leave without checking the gas.
 
I ALWAYS fill my own plane with fuel......:yes:

Just show up 30 minutes earlier and you can too....
 
This is why I fuel my plane myself.

There is a very good reason why those ramp monkeys only manage to eek out $10hr for their "labor"

Lucky you didn't get JET A instead of 100ll
 
NineThreeKilo said:
This is why I fuel my plane myself.

There is a very good reason why those ramp monkeys only manage to eek out $10hr for their "labor"

Lucky you didn't get JET A instead of 100ll
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I think it's extremely unfair to make that generalization.
 
DavidWhite said:
So, I told him to follow me out to the airplane and we played the game of "find the gasoline" of course, the tips were almost dry as they were when I left them. He said they probably just filtered down to the mains. I asked how that could happen if the mains were full, and got a blank stare. 28 gallons later my tip tanks were full.
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How that happens ? Through a defective fuel selector, not uncommon on a six or 235. Through the dihedral, the fuel makes it into the mains and out the vents. Had the fuel ticket been for 60gal, you should have the fuel selector looked at. The fuel ticket with the low number proves that they simply forgot to fill the tips. But yes, it can happen in a Six.
 
The Navion I usually fuel myself. If you fill the main too quickly you can leave it 16 gallons short as there is only one filler for both wing tanks.

If they refuse to let me do so I tell them to also do the baggage tank. There is *NO* visual indication and unless you're used to LISTENING to the fuel gurgling up the filler, you're going to take a 100LL shower filling that one.
 
Does this mean that you don't know that that professional pilots always observe refueling of their planes?

DavidWhite said:
Forgive me PoA I have sinned.

I came into Denver a week ago today and filled out a form asking for a top off and tip tanks (since people forget the Six has them) they said they were topping it off that afternoon and I called this morning again to double check it was ready. "Yes sir it's ready to go" same guy I talked to last Tuesday.

I show up this afternoon after an exceedingly long day (I've been up since 5) and looked in the tanks and they hadn't been touched. I go inside and tell them I was told the airplane was ready to go - and it wasn't ready. I tell them to top it off and the tip tanks, I saw the fuel truck at the airplane and went to pay - 34.5 gallons. Not near enough. I told them I asked for the tip tanks to be topped off - 3 times in the last week. He said it was full and I was mistaken. So, I told him to follow me out to the airplane and we played the game of "find the gasoline" of course, the tips were almost dry as they were when I left them. He said they probably just filtered down to the mains. I asked how that could happen if the mains were full, and got a blank stare. 28 gallons later my tip tanks were full.

Good thing I visually checked the gas :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Does this mean that you don't know that that professional pilots always observe refueling of their planes?
Click to expand...

:yes:

Not a single drop of fuel goes into my planes unless I do it. :no:


Ever.


At DVN they tried to put Jet A into my -10 thinking it was a turbo prop. No, I'm not kidding.
 
kgruber said:
It was you own fault.
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How was it his fault? He specified filling all tanks and that wasn't done. Yes, he could have taken steps to prevent the event but that's not his fault. He did perform the correct steps to ensure that he departed with desired fuel so the outcome was good.

I have to deal with this problem (people not following instructions) in the work environment and there aren't many solutions. I can't be everywhere at once for direct supervision so expecting folks to comply with the wishes of their employer is one thing I have to do. Trusting folks to do their job and then checking is just part of life. Of course there is no need to be angry at anyone at any part of the process. Failure to perform is just part of life.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
This is why I fuel my plane myself.

There is a very good reason why those ramp monkeys only manage to eek out $10hr for their "labor"

Lucky you didn't get JET A instead of 100ll
Click to expand...

Being one of those 'ramp monkeys', I think this is an unfair generalization. It is just like any other segment of society, where some are more intelligent then others. It also is dependent on the organization that you work for. If the owner of the FBO doesn't care, chances are that his/her employees won't.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I think it's extremely unfair to make that generalization.
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Unfair, yea, generally true, yea

Just ain't worth my airframe, my life or my ticket to trust the ramp monkey.

We hot fuel our caravan, but I PERSOANLLY know each person who does it and watch them like a hawk.
 
Somethings justify getting angry over, like people not being able to do what they've been asked to do, and confirmed doing. I'm just saying. I get yelled at most every day by some aviation professional or another.
 
CMTowner said:
Somethings justify getting angry over, like people not being able to do what they've been asked to do, and confirmed doing. I'm just saying. I get yelled at most every day by some aviation professional or another.
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Naw, failure to perform is nothing to get excited about...property destruction, theft, injury, death, these are things to get wound-up on.

I'm dealing with a contractor death on the job site right now. It's horrible and brings back memories...the regulatory bull-crap just makes it worse.

Of course, little of this has anything to do with David's frustration other than the suggestion to keep it all in perspective.
 
Clark1961 said:
Naw, failure to perform is nothing to get excited about...property destruction, theft, injury, death, these are things to get wound-up on.

I'm dealing with a contractor death on the job site right now. It's horrible and brings back memories...the regulatory bull-crap just makes it worse.

Of course, little of this has anything to do with David's frustration other than the suggestion to keep it all in perspective.
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Choosing to get angry over events is seldom the most effective way of dealing with problems. Many people think that it is and resort to anger regularly but there are almost always more effective ways of dealing with a problem.
 
Because he's PIC. Read the "probable cause" section of the NTSB reports and check for the number of time the line crew is mentioned.

Clark1961 said:
How was it his fault? He specified filling all tanks and that wasn't done. Yes, he could have taken steps to prevent the event but that's not his fault. He did perform the correct steps to ensure that he departed with desired fuel so the outcome was good.

I have to deal with this problem (people not following instructions) in the work environment and there aren't many solutions. I can't be everywhere at once for direct supervision so expecting folks to comply with the wishes of their employer is one thing I have to do. Trusting folks to do their job and then checking is just part of life. Of course there is no need to be angry at anyone at any part of the process. Failure to perform is just part of life.
Click to expand...
 
I always fill my own plane. I have a issue with the company I buy fuel with and their ramp guys. Something about them filling there own trucks with gas when they are diesels on a regular basis.
 
wabower said:
Because he's PIC. Read the "probable cause" section of the NTSB reports and check for the number of time the line crew is mentioned.
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Wayne, he fulfilled his duties by ensuring the aircraft was fueled properly. Perhaps he should have done it as you specified (witnessing). That is water under the bridge. He is not responsible for a contractor's employees doing their job. He is responsible for the satisfactory completion of the task.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
This is why I fuel my plane myself.

There is a very good reason why those ramp monkeys only manage to eek out $10hr for their "labor"

Lucky you didn't get JET A instead of 100ll
Click to expand...

Some people put down waiters and waitresses in front of their friends or family, evidently thinking that it makes them seem smart or funny. Little do they known that it does neither. It does, however, reveal an unattractive side to their own personality. I chose to discontinue a friendship one time over precisely this issue.

Calling line service personnel "ramp monkeys" and disparaging the wages that they earn strikes me as very much the same thing.
 
I just returned from two weeks of touring much of the US as a competitor in the Air Race Classic, and I have to say, the line personnel were, without a single exception, the most professional, most accommodating bunch of gentlemen I have ever encountered.
 
Amelia said:
I just returned from two weeks of touring much of the US as a competitor in the Air Race Classic, and I have to say, the line personnel were, without a single exception, the most professional, most accommodating bunch of gentlemen I have ever encountered.
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I have no doubt that the reaction and service you encountered was in part a reflection of the attitude you yourself conveyed toward those very people.

Of course, knowing you, Mimi, I can't imagine you ever being anything but gracious. :)
 
qbynewbie said:
Some people put down waiters and waitresses in front of their friends or family, evidently thinking that it makes them seem smart or funny. Little do they known that it does neither. It does, however, reveal an unattractive side to their own personality. I chose to discontinue a friendship one time over precisely this issue.

Calling line service personnel "ramp monkeys" and disparaging the wages that they earn strikes me as very much the same thing.
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Hey, I love giving praise for good service, but I'm not a "no child left behind" give everyone a chance kinda guy.

You F' up my order at the sushi joint, OK, maybe you get a crappy tip.

HOWEVER I cant take the chance on you being a retard when it comes to fueling my aircraft!

Hence I teach my students to presume every one of those guys are halfwits, unfortunately more prove me right then wrong.

This is why many 135s GOMs state they must watch the fueling process.

And lastly, lets call a duck a duck here..... you dont work for chit pay (which is what $10ish a hr in 2013 America is) because you are a F'ing genius or are highly talented.
 
Hence the first post about being there. If you're paid to fly the plane, it's just something you do.

Clark1961 said:
Wayne, he fulfilled his duties by ensuring the aircraft was fueled properly. Perhaps he should have done it as you specified (witnessing). That is water under the bridge. He is not responsible for a contractor's employees doing their job. He is responsible for the satisfactory completion of the task.
Click to expand...
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Hey, I love giving praise for good service, but I'm not a "no child left behind" give everyone a chance kinda guy.

You F' up my order at the sushi joint, OK, maybe you get a crappy tip.

HOWEVER I cant take the chance on you being a retard when it comes to fueling my aircraft!

Hence I teach my students to presume every one of those guys are halfwits, unfortunately more prove me right then wrong.

This is why many 135s GOMs state they must watch the fueling process.

And lastly, lets call a duck a duck here..... you dont work for chit pay (which is what $10ish a hr in 2013 America is) because you are a F'ing genius or are highly talented.
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Do you find it necessary to put down the line service personnel in order to teach your students to watch the fueling process? What is it about your teaching methods that requires putting down other people in order to teach your students what they need to know?

"Retard", "halfwit", "line monkey"... got it. If you were working for me and I heard you use those terms to describe line personnel or any other group of people we interacted with, you'd get one warning. The next time, you'd be out looking for a different job.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
And lastly, lets call a duck a duck here..... you dont work for chit pay (which is what $10ish a hr in 2013 America is) because you are a F'ing genius or are highly talented.
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In a lot of the entry-level flying jobs, the rampie makes more per hour than the FO who 'supervises' him fueling the plane.

Lots of reasons why people will take a job at the airport, I doubt that many are there because that's the only job available to them. I actually think that they make decent money. With our local FBO, if they provide prompt and courteous service, I tip the line guys (which may be one of the reasons why I get prompt and courteous service when I call).
 
qbynewbie said:
"Retard", "halfwit", "line monkey"... got it. If you were working for me and I heard you use those terms to describe line personnel or any other group of people we interacted with, you'd get one warning. The next time, you'd be out looking for a different job.
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If I overheard that, there wouldn't be a warning.
 
qbynewbie said:
Do you find it necessary to put down the line service personnel in order to teach your students to watch the fueling process? What is it about your teaching methods that requires putting down other people in order to teach your students what they need to know?

"Retard", "halfwit", "line monkey"... got it. If you were working for me and I heard you use those terms to describe line personnel or any other group of people we interacted with, you'd get one warning. The next time, you'd be out looking for a different job.
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I dont put them down, that's something they do on their own.

Luckily for me I dont work in the department store or office where you manage ;)
 
Airplane refueling falls into the same category as DKRoyal's philosophy about throwing the football, except that many more things can go wrong.

When considering a pilot's many responsibilities for the successful completion of a trip, fuel should one of the simplest. When it doesn't work that way isn't the first question "Lack of sufficient fuel? How in hell did he screw that up?
 
If the last twenty line people I have had dealings with were paid according to their level of service, their attention to detail, their delightful friendliness to a couple of grannies, they'd all be millionaires.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
I dont put them down, that's something they do on their own.
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That sounds exactly like something a seventh-grader would say to his friends. Since I find it hard to believe that an adult could be so clueless, I'm going to just assume that's a line you wrote in an unsuccessful attempt to be clever.
 
Don't get mad. Get fuel. The correct fuel and quantity. STAND THERE.

At the large FBOs in the big terminals, they always ask, "do you wish to have it refueled in the morning (hint hint, they want to be able to do it when they wish), I've replied for 30 years, "NO thank you; I'd like them to do it NOW.(while I am standing here)." Then if I have to wait because the poor guy is doing ten airplanes, I just wait.

It's only my life. Seriously.
 
I should state, OUR COMPANY ground crew, I have the highest amount of respect for, I work with them everyday, I've drank with them and I trust them.

In my line of work, ramp workers are guilty of being stupid until proven innocent, I've had enough experience with them that this is the safest mindset. Sorry if it offends but it keeps me and mine safe

FYI, I still always monitor fueling, even by our company people whom I trust.
 
Amelia said:
If the last twenty line people I have had dealings with were paid according to their level of service, their attention to detail, their delightful friendliness to a couple of grannies, they'd all be millionaires.
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I agree. However, PIC or SIC or third pilot has to watch the fueling. Even if you have already been in the air 6 hours, you just landed at Iqaluit in the middle of the night, the temp is -20C and the wind is blowing snow at 40knots, and you have to fly through the rest of the night to get to Europe for the boss. A crew member will watch the fueling.

Each and every time, or else there is no one in command.
 
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