I flew VFR into IFR 2SM, OVC1500

[dmccormack]

The post you responded to was written by me. I was too lazy to log in.

My point wasn't to rationalize a poor decision. I am always supremely curious of the thought process that leads to error. Only the suicidal intentionally make life threatening decisions. Yet many otherwise good pilots continue to end up at that end of the box. I was simply thinking outloud.,

"Unregistered" was the OP, so I thought the post was his.

Pushing the boundaries is fine, but within the boundaries you have at the time. The OPs boundary is VFR flight -- he isn't IFR qualified, and admitted same.

I "push the boundaries" with each Private student by taking them up in Marginal VFR. It's always an eye opener...

 

[Ghery]

Earlier comments about having an IR will make you worry about the weather even more are entirely correct. Before I had it my decisions were simple - can I get there while maintaining VMC? Now I worry about ice, I worry about ceilings at the destination and potential alternates, I worry about flying into a thunderstorm, and so it goes. Some things are easier with the IR once I pull the trigger and go fly, but the worry level in planning certainly is greater.

 

[gismo]

In light aircraft, with or without an instrument rating or ATP, my rule is "don't fly the day of the front."

Depends on whether you're flying towards or away from it, among other considerations.

 

[Richard]

Depends on whether you're flying towards or away from it, among other considerations.

You see, each of us have our rules to live by.

The worst thing the OP did, according to me, was let his buddy usurp his PIC authority. After that, everything he did was in accordance with that.

Bloddy business, flying. Couple that with playing chicken with weather...bad form.

 

[gismo]

I got a call late in the afternoon from one of my pilot buddies asking where the heck I was. He knew I was out flying that day. I told him where I was and he said I better get home soon, a fast moving front is coming in and all the fields behind the front were going IFR. I check the weather--still 7SM and 3000 broken at the home drome. I take off. There is about a 30kt. headwind and low level turbulence. I choose 2300ft as my cruising altitude as that is about as low as I can go while staying above any towers enroute and keeping out of the headwind as much as possible. Pitot heat on.

Unlike many folks I wouldn't fault you for attempting that flight, as long as you were predicted to land before it got dark. At night you need to avoid any chance of low vis or ceilings because you can't see either until you get into them.

About 50 miles out, I run into the wall of clouds. The sun is low on the horizon and the VFR portable GPS is predicting my ETE will be about 10 minutes after sunset. I press on. The visual horizon is basically gone but I can still see the ground below me for a few miles in every direction but even that visibility is steadily receding. I split my time between my instruments and looking down on the ground below. I'm rock solid at 2300ft. and keeping the sunny side of the airplane up and cussing about the lack of visibility, headwind, and the choppy air. 2300ft. also happens to be the MDA for the instrument approach at my home field.

OK, here's the real big problem that gets people killed all too often. Being able to see the ground provides a false sense of security that's simply not justified. In addition you were tempted by the knowledge that you "only" had to go another 50 miles to reach the (false) comfort of home. If you lose forward visibility, you need to reverse course and/or descend (if terrain/obstructions permit) immediately. BTW, the MDA at an airport 50 miles distant has zero bearing on the safety of that altitude or lack thereof. For that matter even if the airport is 5 miles away it still means nothing.

Getting close now, GPS shows 10 miles out. Don't see my town, definitely don't see the airport. 5 miles out. Still can't see the airport. It's getting very dark out. I click on all the lights with the radio. 3 miles, I see nothing. I slow the plane down and get it ready to land. Finally I see the airport below me and the GPS agrees. I circle with the airport in sight, descend, fly a short approach, and land. It's the most relieved I have been to be on the ground in my entire private pilot "career".

I realize you're not likely to repeat this experience but did you give any thought to what you would have done had the batteries died on your GPS or it quit for some other reason? If you think slogging along in the murk VFR in the dark while following a magenta line is scary, try to imagine how much worse it would feel if you weren't able to determine where you were or where the airport was.

I checked the weather on AWOS while taxiing back to my hangar. 2SM, OVC 1500. I was damn lucky there was no ice, no instrument failure, and the clouds weren't any lower. Field elevation is about 900ft.

I know basic VFR minimums are 1 mile, clear of clouds. I was not clear of clouds, rather skimming along in the bottom layer. Horizontal visibility was nil/minimal but I could still see the ground if I looked straight down. I'm not instrument rated but I'm doing the training and I have shot about a dozen approaches in this month, some in actual, all with a CFII onboard (obviously). I know I have to get my IR ticket if I'm going to use my plane as a serious traveling machine like I want it to be.

One additional danger is that the fear you felt will fade over time and the memory of this flight will begin to seem like a "success" making it emotionally easier to push things even further next time the "opportunity" comes along. Hopefully you'll avoid that additional mistake and become (a lot) more conservative in your future in-flight decision making.

 

[bbchien]

50 nm in cloud. Even in an RV7 that's 20 minutes running the death gauntlet.

I'm shaking my head.
When you're flying, I need to be far, far away.

 

[DavidWhite]

When you're flying, I need to be far, far away.

 

[rainsux]

50 nm in cloud. Even in an RV7 that's 20 minutes running the death gauntlet.

I'm shaking my head.
When you're flying, I need to be far, far away.

+1. Serious lapse of critical thinking skills. Thankfully, the OP did not injure others and/or put a smudge on GA.

Now that the OP has confessed publicly, he should file an ASRS form.

 

[onwards]

One additional danger is that the fear you felt will fade over time and the memory of this flight will begin to seem like a "success" making it emotionally easier to push things even further next time the "opportunity" comes along. Hopefully you'll avoid that additional mistake and become (a lot) more conservative in your future in-flight decision making.

But the flight WAS a success. He landed just fine. He was scared - like I was in my little SVFR foray which Tim mentioned - which in and of itself is certain to have taught a great lesson (our brains tend to develop the neural pathways around fear very rapidly).

Unless he's an adrenaline junkie - or at least more so than a pilot sort of is by definition - then this was probably one of the most valuable experiences of his flying career, and without a doubt will have improved his skills and made him a better pilot. The whole notion about only ever flying in perfect conditions is false, assuming one actually wants to fly. And I, for one, don't want to fly in non-perfect conditions with any of these "super-safe" pilots. I daresay they have poorer skills than *I* prefer to share the sky with.

I guess what I'm getting at is at the heart of risk management. The guy assessed all the parameters - the vast majority of which none of us have or ever will - continued to assess his options along the way (I'm reading between the words of the OP here), and chose to proceed, with a positive end result. That means his risk assessment was on the money.

Even better, he realized that he cut it close, and came here to post, which means he is updating his internal risk assessment matrix already. That is, again, laudable.

I still heartily disagree with the "chastising" posts. I think they are ignorant at best. For someone to come here and confess - anonymously or not - requires and establishes far more accountability, awareness and desire to learn and improve than many of you give credit for.

To the OP - I will be the (only one) who will say well done, congratulations on posting, and I do hope that you get some useful feedback from the thread. I have found that between many of the incredibly harsh responses people here seem to think are merited, there are always some absolutely wonderful nuggets of information, so it is worth it.

 

[DavidWhite]

There's a difference between someone who will fly on a 3000' OVC 7sm day and someone who blasts into IMC without an instrument rating. It's idiocy.

 

[Jeanie]

There's a difference between someone who will fly on a 3000' OVC 7sm day and someone who blasts into IMC without an instrument rating. It's idiocy.

~~~~~~~. And its illegal and it endangered pilots on an IFR flight plan going into the same airport. He was at MDA and circling to land.... Suppose someone else might have been coming in at the same time?
Usually VFR into IMC is considered an emergency. Of the accidents that occur because of it 92% are fatal.

Lance's point about getting away with it this time leading to false notions of pushing it again is a good thing to ponder.

 

[TMetzinger]

There's a difference between someone who will fly on a 3000' OVC 7sm day and someone who blasts into IMC without an instrument rating. It's idiocy.

~~~~~~~. And its illegal and it endangered pilots on an IFR flight plan going into the same airport. He was at MDA and circling to land.... Suppose someone else might have been coming in at the same time?
Lance's point about getting away with it this time leading to false notions of pushing it again is a good thing to ponder.

And that seems to me to be what Onwards is encouraging.

The lesson here shouldn't be "whew, my risk assessment was on the money". The lesson here should be "Holy **** I was stupid to do that and I'm NEVER gonna do that again."

 

[dmccormack]

But the flight WAS a success. He landed just fine. He was scared - like I was in my little SVFR foray which Tim mentioned - which in and of itself is certain to have taught a great lesson (our brains tend to develop the neural pathways around fear very rapidly).

Unless he's an adrenaline junkie - or at least more so than a pilot sort of is by definition - then this was probably one of the most valuable experiences of his flying career, and without a doubt will have improved his skills and made him a better pilot. The whole notion about only ever flying in perfect conditions is false, assuming one actually wants to fly. And I, for one, don't want to fly in non-perfect conditions with any of these "super-safe" pilots. I daresay they have poorer skills than *I* prefer to share the sky with.

I guess what I'm getting at is at the heart of risk management. The guy assessed all the parameters - the vast majority of which none of us have or ever will - continued to assess his options along the way (I'm reading between the words of the OP here), and chose to proceed, with a positive end result. That means his risk assessment was on the money.

Even better, he realized that he cut it close, and came here to post, which means he is updating his internal risk assessment matrix already. That is, again, laudable.

I still heartily disagree with the "chastising" posts. I think they are ignorant at best. For someone to come here and confess - anonymously or not - requires and establishes far more accountability, awareness and desire to learn and improve than many of you give credit for.

To the OP - I will be the (only one) who will say well done, congratulations on posting, and I do hope that you get some useful feedback from the thread. I have found that between many of the incredibly harsh responses people here seem to think are merited, there are always some absolutely wonderful nuggets of information, so it is worth it.

OK, this has to go down as the trolliest or dumbest post ever on this board.

 

[Morne]

@Onwards - bro, while the OP's risk assessment might have worked out it ignores who all he put at risk.

By not involving ATC he potentially put other aircraft at risk. Had he air-filed and pretended to be rated I might agree with your assertion.

Just like the currency requirements are only for carrying pax. I don't mind people putting themselves out on their own limb, but I do mind people putting others at risk.

 

[stratobee]

I'm new here on the forum, but having moved to sunny California from countries like England and before that Sweden, I have to say we're exceptionally blessed here with the weather. I got my start flying over there with all the crap weather that follows and if one didn't accept a certain amount of marginal weather, then one couldn't fly at all. That's just how it was. I know that's the case for many parts of the US as well.

Particularly here in SoCal, there's a genuine fear for any kind of weather if you're VFR.
When I go up in my plane on less stellar days here in the LA basin, I rarely hear a pilot on the freq except the IFR guys. No one is flying. Many pilots here won't even fly if there's a cloud in the sky, and I would argue that doesn't make them a safer pilot. So I kind of agree with Onwards - you're not becoming a better pilot by avoiding any kind of weather. Now, I'm not defending the OP's actions, au contraire, but I do think that skills developed by flying in marginal weather will make you a better pilot. It's important to have those, even though you rarely may exercise them. It's part of the process of building experience so that we can deal with other stuff than blue skies and no clouds the day that happens.

I myself bravely took off in 600ft cloud base back in the UK couple years ago (different VFR rules than here), but the oil lid popped open on the cowling and I had to return. Thank god for that - it was a stupid idea to start with and immediately realised what a daft idea it was as I got airborne! But on a recent Xcountry to Chicago from LA, I encountered some terrifyingly bad weather right after the Rockies and the personal tolerances I developed by flying in marginal weather stood me in good stead.

Just make sure you're within your capabilities, have options and escape routes and of course be legal

 

[JoeSelch]

Lance's point about getting away with it this time leading to false notions of pushing it again is a good thing to ponder.

But, but, but... as onwards pointed out, the OP developed new skills during his misadventure! He'll be even better at it the next time around and better equipped to try his hand at even less-favorable conditions! He's well on his way to becoming a Superior Pilot!

:banghead:

 

[Jeanie]

The safety meeting last night actually covered VFR into IMC and one of the contributing factors to accidents (and 91% are fatal) was people believing-- I got away with it last time so it must be ok--

NOT

 

[onwards]

OK, this has to go down as the trolliest or dumbest post ever on this board.

Awesome. I have updated my signature to include this enlightening tidbit of information. Thank you sir.

 

[flyingmoose]

Awesome. I have updated my signature to include this enlightening tidbit of information. Thank you sir.

haha awesome.

 

[dmccormack]

Awesome. I have updated my signature to include this enlightening tidbit of information. Thank you sir.

Wear it proudly, it was tailor-made.

haha awesome.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Now that we've had our fun, time to drop the smirk and talk reality -- the attitude evidenced in the OP and certain follow-on posts will result in smashed airplanes and at least one badly-mangled dead body (closed casket mangled).

If you don't care about your own safety, at least reconsider before you add to the NTSB's disgustingly-long fatal VFR-into-IMC list. And please do not carry passengers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

If this was all a troll... Great. Such fun. Ha ha ha.

 

[onwards]

Now that we've had our fun, time to drop the smirk and talk reality -- the attitude evidenced in the OP and certain follow-on posts will result in smashed airplanes and at least one badly-mangled dead body (closed casket mangled).

If you don't care about your own safety, at least reconsider before you add to the NTSB's disgustingly-long fatal VFR-into-IMC list. And please do not carry passengers.

Of course, you can't actually predict that, so the top paragraph is basically FUD. I don't react well to FUD, personally, but that's neither here nor there.

As for the second paragraph, this is precisely where you missed the entire point I was attempting to make in my apparently incredibly dumb, trollish post: the OP DOES care about his own safety, exhibited precisely by his coming here. You - and others - apparently cannot grasp this concept, which (apparently) leads to the fear-mongering, which in my opinion is both counter-productive and entirely useless. I would guess that the only purpose it serves is to make you (and the others) feel better.

Some folks, however, seem to understand that the world does not work in black and white, decisions are generally not clear cut, and nobody can have an insight into all the factors related to anyone's decision while in the air except that pilot. They further understand that by coming here and fessing up, the pilot has shown far more maturity, level-headedness and a desire to improve than ALL THE OTHERS WHO NEVER ADMIT TO ANYTHING BUT PERFECTION. These people, therefore, are more appreciative of these reports, and are therefore careful in their responses, providing good solid feedback without the drums and blast-zone special effects in the background. Those posts are a lot easier to read.

Do I get another badge of merit for this post, too?

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm all for folks who want to "go to confession" about their stupid pilot tricks.

The problem I have is when they then don't want to hear "Yes, that was stupid, and you should really try to avoid doing that sort of stupid stuff in the future", or when they try to rationalize their bad decision.

If you go to confession, expect penance.

I think the OP did just fine coming here to explain what he'd done. I also think that folks who've jumped on him aren't jumping on his decision to confess - they're trying to reinforce the message he hopefully got on his own: That his decisions related to flying were bad and he could have been killed and he could have put others at risk too.

Maybe "love the sinner, hate the sin" is a good description for what this sort of confession should be like.

 

[dmccormack]

Of course, you can't actually predict that, so the top paragraph is basically FUD. I don't react well to FUD, personally, but that's neither here nor there.

As for the second paragraph, this is precisely where you missed the entire point I was attempting to make in my apparently incredibly dumb, trollish post: the OP DOES care about his own safety, exhibited precisely by his coming here. You - and others - apparently cannot grasp this concept, which (apparently) leads to the fear-mongering, which in my opinion is both counter-productive and entirely useless. I would guess that the only purpose it serves is to make you (and the others) feel better.

Some folks, however, seem to understand that the world does not work in black and white, decisions are generally not clear cut, and nobody can have an insight into all the factors related to anyone's decision while in the air except that pilot. They further understand that by coming here and fessing up, the pilot has shown far more maturity, level-headedness and a desire to improve than ALL THE OTHERS WHO NEVER ADMIT TO ANYTHING BUT PERFECTION. These people, therefore, are more appreciative of these reports, and are therefore careful in their responses, providing good solid feedback without the drums and blast-zone special effects in the background. Those posts are a lot easier to read.

Do I get another badge of merit for this post, too?

Interesting -- you claim:

...the world does not work in black and white, decisions are generally not clear cut, and nobody can have an insight into all the factors related to anyone's decision...

(Implying the OP made a decision no one else dare question since he and only he was in the air at the time)

And then state:

They further understand that by coming here and fessing up, the pilot has shown far more maturity, level-headedness and a desire to improve than ALL THE OTHERS WHO NEVER ADMIT TO ANYTHING BUT PERFECTION

(Implying those who don't confess to flying VFR into IMC and then bragging about it have no maturity, "level-headedness", or desire to improve)


So help me here --- Is it better to taunt fate and then boast? Is that your point?

In case you haven't noticed, VFR into IMC has been -- and continues to be -- deadly.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/vfrintoimc.cfm?window=3

http://www.faasafety.gov/standdown/content/CruiseControl.pdf

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/acs_vfrimc/

http://www.humanfactors.illinois.edu/Reports&PapersPDFs/isap01/gohwiegmannavpsy01.pdf

 

[onwards]

Dan, I do understand how dangerous VFR into IMC is... as, I am sure, does the OP. Again, his entire post, to me anyway, read like a "OMG, I can't believe I did something this dumb, but hey, I'm alive and everything went well, and isn't it cool, and, ah, I'm a little embarrassed too, need a bit of cheering up and maybe some feedback?".

You read it as boasting. I read it as sharing with a community of people who at least can understand what he just experienced. That's why *I* post my dumb pilot tricks here, too - I don't have pilot friends in real life to share them with. You guys are it. And I have gotten jumped on pretty bad myself, so I know how it feels to be the butt-end of that reaction.

And again, I do not say "don't dare question his decision". By all means, HE is questioning his decision. If he didn't, this post would never have been made. In fact, the thing y'all are blaming him for - being an idiot and not learning from it - is precisely what he is not. If he DIDN'T question his decision and actions, he would never have come here. It should be taken as a given that he wasn't feeling great about it. Unless, of course, you read the post as boasting. I don't. So maybe that's where the difference lies.

So from my interpretation of this thread, my reaction is much more sympathetic than yours. Does this make better sense now?

 

[JoeSelch]

..."OMG, I can't believe I did something this dumb, but hey, I'm alive and everything went well, and isn't it cool, and, ah, I'm a little embarrassed too, need a bit of cheering up and maybe some feedback?".

You read it as boasting. I read it as sharing with a community of people who at least can understand what he just experienced....

Hmm... I didn't read the OP's post as boasting. But, I do read the middle part of your interpretation as something akin to boasting - or, at least it's the part that gives me the chills.

We've all done some stupid and/or scary stuff in airplanes and most of us will readily admit to it... and recognize that there was nothing cool about it, but rather something to never do again.

 

[onwards]

Hmm... I didn't read the OP's post as boasting. But, I do read the middle part of your interpretation as something akin to boasting - or, at least it's the part that gives me the chills.

But why?

I've done some pretty stupid things, which I learned from. I will continue to do stupid things, which I will learn from (or die in the process). I think that's par for the course, at least the way I live. I occasionally race cars, too, and trust me, piloting small aircraft and the stupid tricks I've pulled with those are nothing compared to what happens on the ground in those zoomzooms.

But here is the thing: like most humans would react, when things ended with a safe landing, I was on a high from the adrenaline rush. That is the normal physiological response to a stressful life-and-death situation (which these kind of "edge" situations inevitably are). It feels like you're on top of the world - right until the moment that your brain clicks and the adrenaline washes out and you faceplant on your keyboard realizing just how dumb that was. That's what I mean by "cool".

 

[denverpilot]

Getting off the tangent of Lidle and back to the OP...

I was reading but didn't have any time to reply to this thread while I was out in Nebraska doing my IR training with Jesse...

My thought was for the initial post: You ARE going to DIE.

Do us all a favor and don't take anyone aloft with you when you make decisions to continue VFR into IMC.

If you're "halfway" through your IR training, your instructor likely hasn't hit the point where he sits silently in the right seat and lets you kill yourself. (Safely... HE knows what's going on, but you're done for...), and you're right at the most dangerous point in your training. You THINK you know how to fly the Airplane by reference to Instruments alone.

The number one thing I learned in Nebraska was that even once my IR ticket is punched, there's a lot of flying in IMC and simulated IMC to be done to get to a much higher level of proficiency. Just like the Private rating is a "license to learn", the IR is also.

You'd better get out of the denial stage that you just about killed yourself and your passengers and continue the IR to the point where your CFII has honestly SCARED you in a safe environment. If you can be scared in training, imagine how far up your butt that seat cushion will suck in, the first time you have to do it in real life... and you'll have had practice at calming down, assessing options, and flying the aircraft the whole time.

Go get scared with your CFII. If he's not able to do it, find someone who can and will simulate the IR world as closely as possible so when he says, "You're missed on a non-precision approach at night, and there's a tower out here that's higher than you are. Climb like you mean it."

Only then does it really show the stakes involved.

I will repeat it. YOU ARE GOING TO DIE AND WE'RE GOING TO READ ABOUT YOU ON THE NEWS... if you think VFR into IMC was in ANY way appropriate.

 

[onwards]

Go get scared with your CFII.

Gold.

The single best thing my primary instructor did during PPL training was stick me in a full-on heavy thick cloud at night, look at me calmly while chewing on his toothpick (exactly), and say "so... whatcha gonna do?". Then he crossed his arms, closed his eyes, and started humming quietly (I'm serious; EDIT: thinking back he probably stayed fully alert and relied on his extensive experience to tell what was going on, or maybe had his eyes open, I wasn't really paying attention after the first couple seconds).

Since then, even when I skirt clouds in class Golf, I don't go into them. That experience stayed with me. All the theory in the world, accident reports, whatever, isn't worth a dime compared to those two minutes of sheer terror. And that was WITH an instructor on board.

 

[dmccormack]

Onwards, your continued defense of "unregistered" makes it too easy to conclude both are the same:

You posted about a MVFR flight as a VFR pilot.

Then over several posts you explained how it wasn't that bad and we were all overreacting.

This thread started with a VFR pilot describing a 50 mile flight in IMC.

Then over several posts you explained how it wasn't that bad and we were all overreacting.

 

[TMetzinger]

But why?


But here is the thing: like most humans would react, when things ended with a safe landing, I was on a high from the adrenaline rush. That is the normal physiological response to a stressful life-and-death situation (which these kind of "edge" situations inevitably are). It feels like you're on top of the world - right until the moment that your brain clicks and the adrenaline washes out and you faceplant on your keyboard realizing just how dumb that was. That's what I mean by "cool".

Agreed. Would feel better if the "confessions" had more focus on the "damn that was dumb" and less on the "I cheated death and I FEEL GREAT".

The problem with the adrenalin rush is that as humans we tend to remember good feelings (even if they're associated with bad decisions) much more strongly than bad feelings. That's one of the reasons CFIs are taught to use positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement - it's generally "stickier". But there are certain situations where negative reinforcement is called for, and VFR into IMC is one of them. What we want someone to take away from that experience is how uncomfortable they were during the bad experience, not how relieved they were when it ended.

Negative reinforcement, if sufficiently negative, can be very "sticky". The problem is that if it's not associated with just the right thing, it ends up blocking the person from learning the lessons you want them to learn. Unless you grew up with it and the notion that "no complaints means a good job and a compliment, even a small one, is a great accomplishment", it's usually more harmful than good. For a lot of us folks of middle age or later in life, negative reinforcement was how we learned pretty much everything and we sometimes don't remember how comparatively thin-skinned the next generation is. I'm not saying either way is better or worse, but it's important to remember that there IS a difference and saying something that would get a sheepish "yeah, you're right, sorry." from a greybeard will send a Gen-Xer away in tears, never to return.

 

[onwards]

Onwards, your continued defense of "unregistered" makes it too easy to conclude both are the same:

Good for you, but I am not the OP on this thread. I post everything under my actual account ID.

EDIT: and btw, I am not "defending" the OP. I am attempting to make the same point I have in the past, when I was the butt-end of these over-reactions (in my perception). I do admit that It's easier to do it when it's not my own stupidity that is under discussion.

 

[onwards]

Agreed. Would feel better if the "confessions" had more focus on the "damn that was dumb" and less on the "I cheated death and I FEEL GREAT".

Fair enough. I think that tracks with my comment about the different interpretations we have of the original post.

Tim, you make several very insightful comments in the rest of your post above, that certainly merit further consideration. I am not sure I know how to reply, because I'd like to think about them some. It can be quite interesting to understand the foundations behind different viewpoints, all those hidden assumptions we all have. Thanks for the post.

 

[Everskyward]

Agreed. Would feel better if the "confessions" had more focus on the "damn that was dumb" and less on the "I cheated death and I FEEL GREAT".

But you can't deny that the "I cheated death and I feel great" adrenaline rush doesn't exist. It explains why people sometimes do impulsive, unpredictable things. Their subconscious tells them that the last time they did it IT FELT GREAT! It's better to recognize that this phenomenon exists and try not to let yourself get sucked into it. I tend to think it's more of a factor in buzzing accidents and unauthorized aerobatics but it could happen with pushing weather too.

 

[azure]

But here is the thing: like most humans would react, when things ended with a safe landing, I was on a high from the adrenaline rush. That is the normal physiological response to a stressful life-and-death situation (which these kind of "edge" situations inevitably are). It feels like you're on top of the world - right until the moment that your brain clicks and the adrenaline washes out and you faceplant on your keyboard realizing just how dumb that was. That's what I mean by "cool".

I dunno. My VFR-into-IMC debacle left me shaking. I wasn't on any kind of adrenaline high at any point in the incident. I was kicking myself for letting myself get into the situation, and doing the best I could do to get out of it and land safely. Like the OP I also had to skim the bases for a while because I didn't know my location precisely enough (primitive, non moving map GPS) to be sure I wouldn't hit the one tower within 25 nm if I descended any further. I had decided against a right 180 because that would have taken me deeper into the clag, and against a left 180 because it would have put me into a hot R-area. So descending was my only good option. I was too low for radar contact, but I should still have called ZMP and 'fessed up, as there was a field nearby and I still could have created a danger for departing or arriving IFR traffic.

The one thing I do agree with you on, onwards, is the fact that there is too much drama over VFR-into-IMC. I do not believe that every pilot has "only 90 seconds to live" once entering IMC, and I feel pretty strongly that that video could potentially KILL a pilot who accidentally enters IMC by causing him to panic and forget his training. This isn't to minimize the danger, because the record proves that it IS a dangerous situation that should be avoided at all costs. But I also think we should focus more on giving pilots -- even pilots with no interest in the instrument rating -- the skills to successfully get out of accidental IMC, rather than scare the bejabbers out of them. The 3 hours needed for the PPL aren't enough, and I think every pilot needs to do some recurrent training under the hood to keep up those skills.

Assuming you have the skills you need, when you're in a situation like that there are really only two choices if you cannot safely get to VFR right away: 'fess up and use your 91.3 authority, or ask for a pop-up clearance, even if you're not rated (or if rated, not legally current). I won't argue for or against asking for the clearance (it's your ticket) but why not just call up ATC and 'fess up? From everything I've read and understood, there is no downside to declaring and landing at the closest suitable field. Unless you've really screwed the pooch already, your ticket is safe, and more importantly you haven't caused a loss of separation, or worse yet, hit someone or something.

 

[dmccormack]

Good for you, but I am not the OP on this thread. I post everything under my actual account ID.

EDIT: and btw, I am not "defending" the OP. I am attempting to make the same point I have in the past, when I was the butt-end of these over-reactions (in my perception). I do admit that It's easier to do it when it's not my own stupidity that is under discussion.

Be glad you only have to deal with perceived over-reaction posts on PoA.

Far too many VFR into IMC events result in fatal wrecks, where corpse pieces are collected using sandwich-size plastic bags.

It's never, ever good...

 

[TMetzinger]

But you can't deny that the "I cheated death and I feel great" adrenaline rush doesn't exist. It explains why people sometimes do impulsive, unpredictable things. Their subconscious tells them that the last time they did it IT FELT GREAT! It's better to recognize that this phenomenon exists and try not to let yourself get sucked into it. I tend to think it's more of a factor in buzzing accidents and unauthorized aerobatics but it could happen with pushing weather too.

Nope, I don't deny it exists. But since it sends the wrong message to the person, I try to stomp hard on it when it happens.

There's a great scene in a movie called "The Fifth Element". In the scene, Bruce Willis has just rescued Milla Jovovich from the police in his skycab, and is evading police by driving through an asteroid belt of other traffic. He's got this great grin on his face as he's saying "this is SO stupid!"

It should be a poster for the sort of situation under discussion.

 

[Gerhardt]

I agree with Onwards in that some of these posts are nothing more than rude remarks. Which reminds me of the old days with Frank on the red board. One of the most intelligent pilots I've never met, but the guy just didn't know how to share information with newbies. I enjoy some of the threads here that are full of "yeah, that was stupid but I'm glad you're alright and you learned from it" or "here's something you didn't mention and might think about..." If you want to make a thread like this a learning tool you post in a fashion that will make pilots receptive to the information you're passing along. The old flies/honey adage is true.

I didn't get the impression that the OP was bragging about having survived the experience. I didn't get the impression he planned on doing anything like that again. There were a few good comments about some things he might give thought to before future flights, so this hasn't been a wasted thread after all.

 

[SkyHog]

Are you saying that the Lidle accident was due to adhering to the rules? On the contrary, it was in direct opposition to the rules - he/CFI did NOT know the turning radius of the Cirrus at that speed, the CFI was NOT that familiar with the Cirrus, shall we continue?

But in this case, it is a simple flow chart - ran into bad weather and did nothing to mitigate the situation. 1. continued even tho the weather was beyond the comfort level, 2. did not seek the assistance of ATC.

Yeah....no.

The Lidle incident was caused because of the fear of busting Bravo. Rather than bust Bravo and get help, they ran into a building.

Not defending the OP, but that's what happened.

 

[Everskyward]

Nope, I don't deny it exists. But since it sends the wrong message to the person, I try to stomp hard on it when it happens.

Do you think that "stomping hard" on another adult is likely to change their behavior unless you have some other kind of authority over them? I think it only turns them off to whatever constructive advice you have that might follow. I'm not talking about you in particular, Tim. I'm talking in general about those that tend to "stomp hard".

 

[onwards]

Azure, excellent post.

One of the things you mention is a tip I received here in one of these threads - the idea that you can (and should) ask ATC to climb on top of a cloud layer if you get caught in one. It's an excellent resource that, for some reason, I had never considered before reading it here.