I do not understand this.

U

Unregistered

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Twice in the past couple of months something has happened which has me puzzled. Pilots I work with have thrown there careers away. In both cases they were set up for scheduled flights and they went drinking before the flights.
Once was an evening flight flight with a VIP passenger, and the PIC went to get the SIC at his hotel room and the SIC was so blasted he did not recognize the PIC. This was less then 2 hours before takeoff. The company had to send another airplane to bring the VIP home. One of the company VPs went out on the replacement airplane, and had the SIC drug and alcohol tested. After the test proved positive for alcohol he was fired right there on the spot. He had his company credit cards taken away right there and had to pay his own hotel bill and his own flight home. He has not shown his face anywhere near the hanger since.

Then the night before last it happened again. The SIC was scheduled for a trip which had a 6am showup. At 9.30 the night before he called the PIC and said he was at a friends birthday party in a city about 3 hrs away and that he was about to leave for home. He said he might be a little late because of the late time he would be getting home. He was driving home when he was pulled over by a cop. He was given a roadside sobriety test and failed. This was followed by another test when he got to the police station. He failed again. He was arested and spent the night in jail. He used his call to leave a message that he would not be able to fly the trip. No details or explanations.
This made the dispatch office crazy because they had most of the pilots out on trips and a few were sick. They had to juggle a few trips and airplanes around to make things work and they finally found another SIC for the airplane which was now assigned to a later trip. In the end it all worked out ok except one trip was delayed about a hour.

The SIC came in today to meet with the Director Of Operations and walked out without his badge or line credentials. He got fired for breaking policy about drinking less than 12 hours before flying and having made the bad decision which caused so much trouble.

My point to all this is simple. Why would someone spend so much time and money to become a professional pilot just to throw it all away? There are so many people who would die to have there skills and jobs! It must make getting another job in the futre almost impossible. They must be nuts. The greatest job in the world and they just throw it away.

I do not understand this.
 
The number of alcoholics and other alcohol abusers in the pilot profession is neither more, nor less, than the rest of the American population. My 2c.
 
:dunno:Like Steve said, its nothing new been going on since man invented alcohol and jobs!

I don't understand why you don't understand...:dunno:
 
I don't get it myself. Yes, it sure does happen and a lot more than we hear about. I knew a CFI who got busted but I never found out if the charge really was public drunkenness or something a worse that was dealt down. Either way, he walked a fine line and came dang close to losing his ticket... just months before he was hired by a regional. This particular regional airline is one of the best to work for in the country, at that. He got lucky.

At the same time, I had a bottle of Kahlua that was half full and had been around for nearly a year and a half before I gave it to my neighbor. I had it only because I love the flavor and it fit my sugar tooth quite well. It seemed like the only time I ever looked at it and started to take a swig was the night before I'd be flying. The flight was a good twelve hours or so away form that small swig but just the same, I didn't take it. I didn't want the stuff in my system. My ticket means that much to me, particularly after I worked so damn hard to get it back after unauthorized flight into IMC.

Now, if I can only kick this Coca-Cola addiction! And, they make it so easy... I just paid 67 cents per two-liter bottle. With that bargain, why would I want booze? Maybe because I like my sobriety and want to enjoy what I've accomplished.

Sadly, some don't. :(
 
67 cents? I know what I'm stocking up on next time I am in Atlanta. It's $1.59 here!
 
I think the life of a young pro pilot would absolutely suck.

You have to work weird hours with little chance of a regular life. You probably don't have a family, and if you do they probably feel neglected. You don't have any money, and most likely are in debt up to your eyeballs. You work in a relatively high stress job with an unabashedly uncertain future. You are out to dinner many nights and then go to a lonely hotel room. Worst of all, you've probably had the Utopian dream of being a pilot for so long that the reality of the situation is a suffocating disappointment.


I'm not surprised one tiny bit that some pilots turn into alcoholics.


James Dean
 
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Unregistered said:
Twice in the past couple of months something has happened which has me puzzled. Pilots I work with have thrown there careers away. In both cases they were set up for scheduled flights and they went drinking before the flights.
Once was an evening flight flight with a VIP passenger, and the PIC went to get the SIC at his hotel room and the SIC was so blasted he did not recognize the PIC. This was less then 2 hours before takeoff. The company had to send another airplane to bring the VIP home. One of the company VPs went out on the replacement airplane, and had the SIC drug and alcohol tested. After the test proved positive for alcohol he was fired right there on the spot. He had his company credit cards taken away right there and had to pay his own hotel bill and his own flight home. He has not shown his face anywhere near the hanger since.

Then the night before last it happened again. The SIC was scheduled for a trip which had a 6am showup. At 9.30 the night before he called the PIC and said he was at a friends birthday party in a city about 3 hrs away and that he was about to leave for home. He said he might be a little late because of the late time he would be getting home. He was driving home when he was pulled over by a cop. He was given a roadside sobriety test and failed. This was followed by another test when he got to the police station. He failed again. He was arested and spent the night in jail. He used his call to leave a message that he would not be able to fly the trip. No details or explanations.
This made the dispatch office crazy because they had most of the pilots out on trips and a few were sick. They had to juggle a few trips and airplanes around to make things work and they finally found another SIC for the airplane which was now assigned to a later trip. In the end it all worked out ok except one trip was delayed about a hour.

The SIC came in today to meet with the Director Of Operations and walked out without his badge or line credentials. He got fired for breaking policy about drinking less than 12 hours before flying and having made the bad decision which caused so much trouble.

My point to all this is simple. Why would someone spend so much time and money to become a professional pilot just to throw it all away? There are so many people who would die to have there skills and jobs! It must make getting another job in the futre almost impossible. They must be nuts. The greatest job in the world and they just throw it away.

I do not understand this.
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Well there are some people who have not quite learned yet the consequences of their actions. Is it correct to assume that in these cases you mention that these SICs were fairly young (20 ish) types? I recall those days and remember seeing some real bonehead decisions by people. I was in the military then and even so there were a few people who needed some extra time to grow up. The only hope is that they learn and not make that mistake again. But as you grow your responsibility the stakes get higher. Don't throw it away for nothing but a few drinks.
 
James_Dean said:
I think the life of a young pro pilot would absolutely suck.

You have to work weird hours with little chance of a regular life. You probably don't have a family, and if you do they probably feel neglected. You don't have any money, and most likely are in debt up to your eyeballs. You work in a relatively high stress job with an unabashedly certain future. You are out to dinner many nights and then go to a lonely hotel room. Worst of all, you've probably had the Utopian dream of being a pilot for so long that the reality of the situation is a suffocating disappointment.


I'm not surprised one tiny bit that some pilots turn into alcoholics.
James Dean
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Nobody turns into an alcoholic because of their job... It's a combination of genetics, upbringing, and most importantly, stupidity. Stupidity is a vital component of any program of self-destruction. I don't care what your IQ is, how many scholastic achievements you have, or how clever people think you are: if you let drugs and alcohol take over your life you are, functionally at any rate, an idiot.

Everyone I've ever known personally who destroyed their careers or themselves with drugs and/or booze had problems and stress, like anyone else... but they would have got high because the sky is blue, not necessarily because they were stressed and unhappy and uncertain about their future. A typical problem with drunks and addicts of all kinds is that they point to the stress-inducing factors in their life and say "see? That's what's making me drink (smoke/snort/whatever)!"
But in reality, they are getting high for much deeper reasons within themselves (and sometimes a quirk of body or brain chemistry)... but they cannot accept the idea of such a flaw in themselves. They see the problems in their life as the cause of the craving or the inability to say "that's enough for me", then at the same time use the high to shield themselves or escape from the pain of these problems.
Sad.
But stupid.
 
rottydaddy said:
Nobody turns into an alcoholic because of their job... It's a combination of genetics, upbringing, and most importantly, stupidity. Stupidity is a vital component of any program of self-destruction.
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I have been through the fires of hell and back dealing with an alcoholic, and I can assure you that you are ignorant on this subject.

James Dean
 
smigaldi said:
Is it correct to assume that in these cases you mention that these SICs were fairly young (20 ish) types?
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I don't know about the people in the original post, but I know someone who was in his mid-40s at the time and a retired military pilot who failed a pee test... twice. Too bad, because I enjoyed flying with him.
 
Alcoholism is a mental disease. Is someone stupid because they are bipolar? Or Schizophrenic? They are also not stupid because of substance addiction. It is one of the most insidious of all mental diseases, possibly the hardest to treat, and definitely the most tragic.
 
James_Dean said:
I have been through the fires of hell and back dealing with an alcoholic, and I can assure you that you are ignorant on this subject.

James Dean
Click to expand...

steingar said:
Alcoholism is a mental disease. Is someone stupid because they are bipolar? Or Schizophrenic? They are also not stupid because of substance addiction. It is one of the most insidious of all mental diseases, possibly the hardest to treat, and definitely the most tragic.
Click to expand...

gprellwitz said:
I totally agree with you.
Click to expand...

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
 
steingar said:
Alcoholism is a mental disease. Is someone stupid because they are bipolar? Or Schizophrenic? They are also not stupid because of substance addiction. It is one of the most insidious of all mental diseases, possibly the hardest to treat, and definitely the most tragic.
Click to expand...

"Alchoholism is a mental disease" ...the long accepted and successful treatment for which is will power, in normal life situations. Just ask/observe those who have successfully licked it. The same goes for a number of other "mental diseases".
 
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yea ive been around my fair share of alcoholics and gotta agree with James, Scott, and Grant on this one.

James - after that monologue you oughtta be about ready to get Commercial and CFI, eh? ;)
 
tonycondon said:
yea ive been around my fair share of alcoholics and gotta agree with James, Scott, and Grant on this one.

James - after that monologue you oughtta be about ready to get Commercial and CFI, eh? ;)
Click to expand...

I'd do the comm and CFI just to give back to aviation. I'd love to mentor a few people someday.

There is no way in H-E-L-L that I would consider a pro career. As one of my previous instructors told me recently, "if I have to see Boise after midnight one more time I'm gonna kill someone". No thanks.


James Dean
 
James_Dean said:
I'd do the comm and CFI just to give back to aviation. I'd love to mentor a few people someday.

There is no way in H-E-L-L that I would consider a pro career. As one of my previous instructors told me recently, "if I have to see Boise after midnight one more time I'm gonna kill someone". No thanks.


James Dean
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hehe, is that one that I know?
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
"Alchoholism is a mental disease" ...the long accepted and successful treatment for which is will power, in normal life situations. Just ask/observe those who have successfully licked it. The same goes for a number of other "mental diseases".
Click to expand...
Sorry, but best I can tell - after dealing with a lot of folks in that situation - is that someone who "licked it" through will power and will power alone is most likely nothing but a dry drunk. I don't care what they look like on the outside, on the inside they're the same wretched person they always were. They're just dry, is all.

There's a lot more to it than "will power".
 
Unregistered said:
My point to all this is simple. Why would someone spend so much time and money to become a professional pilot just to throw it all away? There are so many people who would die to have there skills and jobs! It must make getting another job in the futre almost impossible. They must be nuts. The greatest job in the world and they just throw it away.

I do not understand this.
Click to expand...

??? Because their quality of life sucks and they're not worried about losing a job that doesn't pay the bills or leave them any personal time?:dunno::dunno:
 
Henning said:
Prove it.
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I could paste in numerous URLs and whatnot but a quick google search will give them to you as well. Alcoholism has been long-regarded by the medical community as a mental disorder, and clearly has a strong and complex genetic component. One of the Institutes in the National Institutes of Health, NIDA (the National Institute on Drug Abuse) is committed to fighting drug addiction, including alcoholism.

It is devilishly difficult to treat because of the status of alcohol in our society. Please, don't think I am saying that every DUI should get a pass because its a disease. However, I think saying they are a bunch of stupid drunks is different than saying they are in the throes of a mental illness. The former leaves them with little option, however if they can realize that they are indeed suffering from a mental disease and identify it for such, there are treatment options with proven efficacy.
 
My comment regarding alcoholics in particular was perhaps unclear... of course I realize it is a form of mental illness.

But I too have considerable personal experience with alcoholics, heroin addicts, bipolars and paranoid-schizophrenics, and root cause aside, I believe the ability to use the sense you were born with is a critical factor in whether or not one has any success in the struggle with the disease, and/or how badly one screws up one's life in the first place.
The people I know who've actually conquered their chemical dependencies admitted that step one was to stop whining and blaming others or life in general (admitting you have a problem), and step two was to remove themselves from the usual scenarios where they would be tempted.

That's the smart way. The stupid way is to say: "I don't have a problem", or worse yet, in a way: "I have a disease; the gummint should give me a check that I can cash at my local pub."

Likewise for any mental illness: schizophrenics, for example, have a major, major challenge in confronting the fact that they are sick; it's not something that a mentally lazy or just plain dumb person can handle. I mean, it takes willpower and courage, and then the fight is just beginning, but... it also takes smarts.

But the pilots mentioned in the original posts are probably not "real" alcoholics... so they are probably just idiots with some minor self-esteem issues who perhaps haven't yet mentally left the college frat house, where they were spared the full brunt of the consequences of drinking like a fish when you have responsibilities.
 
steingar said:
I could paste in numerous URLs and whatnot.
Click to expand...

And I can find you another load of clinical psychiatrists running State Hospitals that will argue it. Just because one side who relies on their funding calls it a "disease" doesn't make it so. Show me a proven genetic link that can't be argued as learned behavior, because I know a lot of children of alchoholics who aren't because they learned in childhood, that's what they want NOT to be, and they can drink just a couple of drinks socially and easily go for extended periods without. Maybe as the genome project moves further along there can be substantiation one way or the other, but at this point it doesn't exist.
 
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Not at all true. Alcoholism can be tracked as a multigene disease, and mouse geneticists are now using quantitative trait linkage to hone in on the actual disease genes. The children of affected people do not always exhibit the trait in question, that's just not how genetics works.

Keep in mind that human behavior is not determined genetically alone. For example, someone with strongly addictive personality might not run into trouble if raised a Mormon. However, that does not preclude the existence of the mental disorder inthe first place.
 
etsisk said:
Sorry, but best I can tell - after dealing with a lot of folks in that situation - is that someone who "licked it" through will power and will power alone is most likely nothing but a dry drunk. I don't care what they look like on the outside, on the inside they're the same wretched person they always were. They're just dry, is all.

There's a lot more to it than "will power".
Click to expand...

Lots of variations in the type of person "inside". In any case, they're all much better off for themselves and all around them when they keep that person "dry", which of course is not a cure, just the best treatment no matter whether it's labeled mental or physical.
 
To ad a couple more details. Both pilots mentioned are in there 30s and have been flying for various companies for some time. Neither has had a single mark or violation on their record. But in both of these cases, the FAA would not have been involved other than being notified of the DUI after it is adjudicated. The first one had no FAA bearing at all.

I am familiar with alcoholism and addiction as well as the current belief that they are considered illnesses, not just conditions. I would have to agree that certain personalities and psyches are more likely to become addicted to whatever substance but I'm not sold that it is an illness. I think it is more a lack of discipline on the part of the individual.

Granted that once a person is physically addicted to something, it is hard to cut it off. But in the case of the two pilots I refered to initially and having known them for almost two years, neither of them has had a problem during that time until now.

Both of these cases lean more toward simply bad decision making not addictive personalities. And if bad decisions are being made like this I have to wonder what decisions they would make if they were PIC's instead of SIC's?

In so many situations where accidents are evaluated, to see how the course of decision making affected the outcome, we have 20/20 vision. There is a definitive beginning and end so it is obvious. In cases like this without such clear cut boundries, the vision blurs as the the facts are less clear.

But I still stick to my original thought, why would they make such poor decisions which would screw things up so badly for them? I can imagine that if these guys made these bad choices, how many others do and do not get busted or reported?

I still do not understand this.
 
Or two quote the last risk management course I took:

When the benefits are clear and immediate, and the risks are nebulous and distant, people tend to make bad choices.

They were referring to bad decisions about flying, but it applies to substance abuse too.
 
TMetzinger said:
When the benefits are clear and immediate, and the risks are nebulous and distant, people tend to make bad choices.
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I think this is pretty close to the answer. I'll bet that it wasn't the first time the two pilots in question have pushed the alcohol rules, but each time they got away with it they got bolder. The probability that they would have been caught in a random test is pretty small. The pilot in the second example would in all likelihood have gotten away completely if he had not been pulled over. The pilot in the first example, maybe not so much so.

As far as people throwing away their careers by making bad decisions, I think people do it on a somewhat regular basis and it's certainly not restricted to aviation.
 
rottydaddy said:
My comment regarding alcoholics in particular was perhaps unclear... of course I realize it is a form of mental illness.

But I too have considerable personal experience with alcoholics, heroin addicts, bipolars and paranoid-schizophrenics, and root cause aside, I believe the ability to use the sense you were born with is a critical factor in whether or not one has any success in the struggle with the disease, and/or how badly one screws up one's life in the first place.
The people I know who've actually conquered their chemical dependencies admitted that step one was to stop whining and blaming others or life in general (admitting you have a problem), and step two was to remove themselves from the usual scenarios where they would be tempted.

That's the smart way. The stupid way is to say: "I don't have a problem", or worse yet, in a way: "I have a disease; the gummint should give me a check that I can cash at my local pub."

Likewise for any mental illness: schizophrenics, for example, have a major, major challenge in confronting the fact that they are sick; it's not something that a mentally lazy or just plain dumb person can handle. I mean, it takes willpower and courage, and then the fight is just beginning, but... it also takes smarts.

But the pilots mentioned in the original posts are probably not "real" alcoholics... so they are probably just idiots with some minor self-esteem issues who perhaps haven't yet mentally left the college frat house, where they were spared the full brunt of the consequences of drinking like a fish when you have responsibilities.
Click to expand...

I think this is an excellent explaination, which leads to this:

Originally Posted by TMetzinger
When the benefits are clear and immediate, and the risks are nebulous and distant, people tend to make bad choices.

Our church works extensively with the 'homeless'. I find that most of them are not really homless, it is their mental problems that keep them from being with their families, earning a living, etc. They need a warm place to sleep and get food, but what they really need is consuling, a little or a lot depending on their condition.

Will power is good but limited, and different in all of us. I only have a PPL, but I guard it carefully as I would be devistated if I lost it like those guys. Still, I enjoy my adult beverages, but fortunately, can keep things under control.
 
bbchien said:
It's actually very simple. ADDICTION is when you know the consequences but choose the substance anyway.
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Distilled to its essence... very well-put.

And I used the term "stupid" because, well, this is not a smart choice.
Especially when something as hard-to-get and easy-to-lose as a pro flying career is at stake...not to mention many lives, potentially.
 
rottydaddy said:
Distilled to its essence... very well-put.

And I used the term "stupid" because, well, this is not a smart choice.
Especially when something as hard-to-get and easy-to-lose as a pro flying career is at stake...not to mention many lives, potentially.
Click to expand...


Sooooooo.....does that mean "stupid" qualifies as a disease as well?
 
alcoholism is the single worst disease on the planet....even if you get lucky and find sobriety it can still kill you.....my first CFI who is now a sober captain at a regional darn near died in front of my eyes due becasue of alcohol...saddest thing I ever saw
 
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