I Declared an Emergency Today

[Dave2]

Peggy

Best I remember you have to ask specifically for GPS NOTAMS.

Dave

 

[IamBull]

So let me get this straight. You're a VFR pilot that went tumbleweed (loss of situational awareness) because you were relying on your GPS for navigation instead of a map? Unsat. Not only that, but you didn't check GPS notams. https://http://www.notams.faa.gov is an approved place to check them (KGPS). Check your stuff for yourself, don't rely on others. You are the pilot in command, act like it. What exactly was your EP? If you were totally tits up the approved solution is just to fly straight and level, climb, conserve, confess, comply and chill out for a minute and get your crap together. I'm not going to pat you on the back for this like the others. If anything it should demonstrate to you that you're not yet competent enough to fly on your own without further training. Call me an ass, I'm just being straight with you.

 

[Lance F]

Peggy, good move for declaring. This simple statement can get one a lot of help. No pilot should feel inhibited about using it.

Regarding 430W/530W issues, this needs to be sorted out real soon. Didn't Garmin promise us some software this spring/summer that will make the unit the primary and only source required for about any IFR operation?

 

[poadeleted20]

Peggy, good move for declaring. This simple statement can get one aRegarding 430W/530W issues, this needs to be sorted out real soon. Didn't Garmin promise us some software this spring/summer that will make the unit the primary and only source required for about any IFR operation?

The WAAS package includes TSO 146 sole source certification. I haven't heard of that being promised or offered for the standard 430/530 without WAAS.

 

[gibbons]

Call me an ass, I'm just being straight with you.

OK. You're an ass.

 

[AuntPeggy]

So let me get this straight. You're a VFR pilot that went tumbleweed (loss of situational awareness) because you were relying on your GPS for navigation instead of a map? Unsat. Not only that, but you didn't check GPS notams. [BAD LINK] is an approved place to check them (KGPS). Check your stuff for yourself, don't rely on others. You are the pilot in command, act like it. What exactly was your EP? If you were totally tits up the approved solution is just to fly straight and level, climb, conserve, confess, comply and chill out for a minute and get your crap together. I'm not going to pat you on the back for this like the others. If anything it should demonstrate to you that you're not yet competent enough to fly on your own without further training. Call me an ass, I'm just being straight with you.

I'm not calling you an ass. It's a name I'm giving myself. Admitting to stupidity has been very difficult. It is helping me learn from this experience.

You did miss the statement that I was not using the GPS for navigation. When I referred to it to fill in the blank for distance from BDR, it had lost all its satellites. No problem, I backtracked to a known location to get more precise distance information. (I was using a chart.)

The major navigation tool that failed was my eyes. If the GPS had been functioning, I would have known. If the VOR had been functioning, I would have known. If I had dialed in the Kingston VOR instead of the BDR VOR, I would have known.

My eyes had recently been checked and I was wearing new prescription sunglasses. Prior to this, my sunglasses were Serengetti's and I wonder whether the cheaper coating contributed to missing familiar landmarks.

Nevertheless, I do not blame anything or anyone other than myself. Trying to figure out why stuff happened so it never happens again. Will be getting additional training.

 

[jesse]

OK. You're an ass.

As always Chip, well said.

 

[AdamZ]

Bull I think what folks are patting Peggy on the back for as you put it was for recognizing her error, confessing it and letting us learn from it. No one is giving her an atta boy for perhaps getting a bit too complacent.

 

[kevin47881]

OK. You're an ass.

Well stated Chip.

 

[jason]

OK. You're an ass.

You have a real way with words, Chip. You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Greebo]

Ok I think the point has been made. Back on topic please.

 

[poadeleted20]

Let's get past the issue of who's a horse's patootie and who's not. There are a couple of important lessons from Aunt Peggy's experience, and I'd like to reiterate them.

First, the PIC is responsible for knowing where the plane is at all times. In this electronic day and age, we often become complacent about navigation, letting the electronics do all the work, and often forget to back it up with some basic map-reading -- comparing what we see below us with what's on the sectional. We also forget about basic DR principles of time/heading/distance/speed to keep track of where we should be and/or how we're getting to the next point. It's easy enough for a GPS misprogramming, electronic interference, or a satellite outage (or for a mistuning or CDI confusion with VOR nav) to give you steering right into some airspace into which you do not want to fly. If you know ahead of time pretty much what heading you should be flying (accounting for both course and wind), you will know when to reject (or at least question) that electronic input.

The second point is that when you're not sure where you are, 'fess up -- to yourself first (denial ain't helpful) and to ATC second. They'll do everything they can to help, and as long as you don't cause a serious problem for them, they aren't likely to call the FSDO (unless it's the third time that week you've called for navigational assistance). When you do land, take stock of your situation, and decide if you need some additional training, and if so, get it (more 'fessing up to yourself).

Based on her posts, I think Aunt Peggy gets it on both points, and while I can't say she didn't mess up (New Haven is far enough from BDR that one should not be over one thinking one is over the other), I commend her for both recognizing she needed help and realizing her non-electronic nav skills may need some refresher. I also think she also deserves respect for laying this all out publicly under her name -- no hiding behind anonymity. That takes courage, but it's worth it, because I think folks take more seriously the lessons learned from others when that other person is someone they know.

 

[steingar]

Three cheers for Aunt Peggy declaring the dreaded emergency and getting on the ground safe.

Razzies on bad nav. Same thing happened twice to us on a recent flight to Florida. The first time my buddy was flying , panicked, changed course and would have turned it into an emergency if I hadn't gotten him straightened out. Second time was in south Fla. I was at the helm, and when the GPS took a dump, I just kept going. I knew I was on course, I figured my destination would be right in front of me and it turned up in time. Damn GPS had to audacity to come back on-line as I was rolling out after landing.

The key isn't an IFR ticket, although that certianly isn't a bad idea. Keep on your charts and you'll never get lost ever. And kudos for you for 'fessing up, might save someone's bacon some day. Everyone does something dumb once in awhile, even smart people. The difference is that the smart people learn from it.

 

[Patch]

Three cheers for Aunt Peggy declaring the dreaded emergency and getting on the ground safe.

Does it really warrant an emergency though? Fessing up to ATC and getting back on track does not necessarily mean you need priority handling, does it?

 

[jason]

Does it really warrant an emergency though? Fessing up to ATC and getting back on track does not necessarily mean you need priority handling, does it?

I guess that's at the discretion of the PIC, isn't it?

 

[fishnfly]

So let me get this straight. You're a VFR pilot that went tumbleweed (loss of situational awareness) because you were relying on your GPS for navigation instead of a map? Unsat. Not only that, but you didn't check GPS notams. https://http://www.notams.faa.gov is an approved place to check them (KGPS). Check your stuff for yourself, don't rely on others. You are the pilot in command, act like it. What exactly was your EP? If you were totally tits up the approved solution is just to fly straight and level, climb, conserve, confess, comply and chill out for a minute and get your crap together. I'm not going to pat you on the back for this like the others. If anything it should demonstrate to you that you're not yet competent enough to fly on your own without further training. Call me an ass, I'm just being straight with you.

I'm not going to call you an ass or commend others for calling you it.

I think your post was very accurate and well stated. Could it have been written a little nicer? Sure. However sometimes it just needs to be said.

 

[poadeleted20]

Does it really warrant an emergency though? Fessing up to ATC and getting back on track does not necessarily mean you need priority handling, does it?

No, but being in somebody's airspace without knowing whose just might, especially if you had no idea where you really were or how to get where you wanted to be. Further, in the busy NY area (it ain't like it is around Enid), ATC may tell a VFR aircraft to take a hike unless you convey an appropriate sense of urgency. In any event, as the Captain of the USS Kitty Hawk wrote in his night orders book for the overnight OOD's: "If you are unsure whether or not to wake me, do it -- the presence of doubt in your mind is sufficient grounds to get me involved." It's a lot easier to explain having declared and then finding out you didn't not really need it than not declaring and then finding you did.

As an aside, the Air Force did a study some years back, and found that pilots were much more likely to eject when the situation was mechanical and beyond their control than when the situation was pilot-induced. I think maybe the same thing applies to declaring an emergency -- folks have no qualms declaring if the airplane fails them, but they are most reluctant to do so if their own mistakes got them into the situation, and I just hate to see a fatal case of pride.

 

[KennyFlys]

No, but being in somebody's airspace without knowing whose just might, especially if you had no idea where you really were or how to get where you wanted to be. Further, in the busy NY area (it ain't like it is around Enid), ATC may tell a VFR aircraft to take a hike unless you convey an appropriate sense of urgency. In any event, as the Captain of the USS Kitty Hawk wrote in his night orders book for the overnight OOD's: "If you are unsure whether or not to wake me, do it -- the presence of doubt in your mind is sufficient grounds to get me involved." It's a lot easier to explain having declared and then finding out you didn't not really need it than not declaring and then finding you did.

Agreed. A similar act might have very well kept Lidle and Stangor alive. Declare and bust whatever airspace you need.

A 709 ride is a lot cheaper than a funeral.

 

[Patch]

No, but being in somebody's airspace without knowing whose just might, especially if you had no idea where you really were or how to get where you wanted to be.

I've always approached emergencies with a different mindset. If it's a "land as soon as possible" requiring priority handling, fire/rescue on the ground, or shutting down a runway, it's an emergency. Anything other than that requiring me to terminate what I'm doing is likely going to be an NAR (No Assistance Required).

Going tumbleweed is most definitely a call to knock it off, but I don't think it should lead one to be wired to pull the trigger and declare an emergency.

Further, in the busy NY area (it ain't like it is around Enid),

Enid is a beast unto itself, but I did all of my VFR flying away from Oklahoma, so I really couldn't tell you.

ATC may tell a VFR aircraft to take a hike unless you convey an appropriate sense of urgency.

"Cessna 1234X is lost, request initial vector direct KXXX"

What would ATC say to someone calling lost? What about unintentional flight into IMC by a VFR pilot?

If they just blow you off after that, then yeah, go ahead and declare.

In any event, as the Captain of the USS Kitty Hawk wrote in his night orders book for the overnight OOD's: "If you are unsure whether or not to wake me, do it -- the presence of doubt in your mind is sufficient grounds to get me involved." It's a lot easier to explain having declared and then finding out you didn't not really need it than not declaring and then finding you did.

Agreed, but in most cases, declaring an emergency won't actually help anymore than just telling ATC your problem. There was another post about declaring an EP linked at the bottom of this thread where the guy lost a motor and one of the first things he did was declare an emergency. Aviate, navigate, then communicate.

In the case of lost SA, I'm sure communicating to ATC is part of navigating, but what I see is too many pilots in a hurry to tell a dude on the ground about their plight rather than flying the airplane first. I'm certainly not saying one shouldn't declare an EP, I'm just saying that people can get too wrapped up about trying to declare while all it's really doing is giving them a warm fuzzy that someone else knows that life sucks at the moment.

Need to get on the ground immediately? By all means, declare your emergency. Being lost on a sunny day in VMC with hours of fuel remaining - you've got all the time in the world to figure it out and ask for help.

I think maybe the same thing applies to declaring an emergency -- folks have no qualms declaring if the airplane fails them, but they are most reluctant to do so if their own mistakes got them into the situation, and I just hate to see a fatal case of pride.

I agree. It's much easier to ask forgiveness later, but if all else fails - fly the airplane. Declaring an emergency is a technicality to explaining the ATC why you're deviating and that you'll need crash assistance upon landing. That's it. You're the command authority as PIC to do whatever you need to safely bring the aircraft home.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've always approached emergencies with a different mindset. If it's a "land as soon as possible" requiring priority handling, fire/rescue on the ground, or shutting down a runway, it's an emergency. Anything other than that requiring me to terminate what I'm doing is likely going to be an NAR (No Assistance Required).

That's USAF stuff -- the civilian world operates a bit differently.

Going tumbleweed is most definitely a call to knock it off, but I don't think it should lead one to be wired to pull the trigger and declare an emergency.

Not too many folks here understand "tumbleweed." In any event, knowing you're in the wrong airspace (but not what airspace it is) isn't the same as being disoriented.

"Cessna 1234X is lost, request initial vector direct KXXX"

First you have to get their attention.

What would ATC say to someone calling lost? What about unintentional flight into IMC by a VFR pilot?

In each case, ATC would probably declare an emergency for the pilot even if the pilot didn't declare one -- and ATC does have that option.

Agreed, but in most cases, declaring an emergency won't actually help anymore than just telling ATC your problem.

As I said, in that airspace, you often have to work just to get ATC's attention. And you could well be right in the middle of LGA's or HPN's arrival/departure corridor, and in MVFR, you could get run over by a 737 or G-IV before you know it.

 

[jhempel]

Peggy, I had the same thing happen to me while trying to skirt the eastern edge of the ATL Class B. It wasn't quite as dramatic as yours because I had a clear evening. It sure was a lesson on not relying on the GPS too much. I knew exactly where I was, but I was using the GPS to track the Class B.

I was using the GPS to fly the circle. The GPS all of a sudden lost it. I immediately turn 90 degrees left to fly away from the Class B. I flew along for a few minutes while scanning the chart to get oriented and figure out what to do. I used the DME to stay out of the airspace. I used the highways to navigate home. I cross checked my position on the highways with the VOR's.

By the way, a friend of mine was flying that same evening. His GPS lost it too. That is when I learned to check the web site for GPS outages.

Thanks for posting your experience. It takes courage to post mistakes in a public forum. It provides good learning experience for others. Ron summed up the lessons nicely.

 

[Patch]

That's USAF stuff -- the civilian world operates a bit differently.

It's funny, the only time I've ever declared an emergency was in a civilian aircraft for a gear malfunction... and after the fact, the FSDO no kidding second-guessed my decision to declare and questioned whether it had been necessary to do so.

Not too many folks here understand "tumbleweed." In any event, knowing you're in the wrong airspace (but not what airspace it is) isn't the same as being disoriented.

Wandering around into someone else's airspace not knowing what's going on (and nearly getting into an unusual attitude) is a complete loss of SA, hence tumbleweed.

First you have to get their attention.

Of course, I was merely quoting the next part.

In each case, ATC would probably declare an emergency for the pilot even if the pilot didn't declare one -- and ATC does have that option.

Never heard of that happening. I'm not arguing the point, that's just unfamiliar to me.

As I said, in that airspace, you often have to work just to get ATC's attention. And you could well be right in the middle of LGA's or HPN's arrival/departure corridor, and in MVFR, you could get run over by a 737 or G-IV before you know it.

Absolutely.

 

[N79959]

So let me get this straight. You're a VFR pilot that went tumbleweed (loss of situational awareness) because you were relying on your GPS for navigation instead of a map? Unsat. Not only that, but you didn't check GPS notams. https://http://www.notams.faa.gov is an approved place to check them (KGPS). Check your stuff for yourself, don't rely on others. You are the pilot in command, act like it. What exactly was your EP? If you were totally tits up the approved solution is just to fly straight and level, climb, conserve, confess, comply and chill out for a minute and get your crap together. I'm not going to pat you on the back for this like the others. If anything it should demonstrate to you that you're not yet competent enough to fly on your own without further training. Call me an ass, I'm just being straight with you.

Amen. What an unsafe operation/operator.

 

[etsisk]

Amen. What an unsafe operation/operator.

Great. Sure, bud. And when (not IF) things go haywire for you, you're gonna just hang it all up, right? I mean, given that you're then such an unsafe operator.

We're human here, if you hadn't noticed, and Peggy has NEVER posted ANYthing that would speak to being an unsafe operator. NEVER, that I've ever seen. In point of fact, if she WERE so "unsafe", then she wouldn't have bothered posting this, as it wouldn't have been so unusual and out of the ordinary for her. But it was both those things. She made a mistake, and instead of contributing ANYthing worthwhile, all you've got to offer is judgmental monday morning quarterbacking. Thanks for sharing.

I hate bushwhackers.

 

[SCCutler]

This horseflesh is just about beaten to a pulp, but I feel obliged to offer this: when someone screws up, and has the guts to tell about it in detail so we can all learn from her, it's an act of service to us all. And, by choosing to tell us about it, she's also telling us that she knows that what she did and wants to avoid doing it again.

For every "what were they thinking" story I read by or about another pilot, I can, with frank self-examination, recognize the potential for similar events in myself. Hence, the story becomes an opportunity to learn; and, from time to time, such stories can save a life.

So I think I'll stick to saying, "thanks for sharing," and leave it at that.

 

[jdwatson]

Nicely said, iSpike !

 

[jesse]

iSpike is the man.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's funny, the only time I've ever declared an emergency was in a civilian aircraft for a gear malfunction... and after the fact, the FSDO no kidding second-guessed my decision to declare and questioned whether it had been necessary to do so.

I'd've laughed in that Inspector's face. I've only seen one case ever where a pilot got in trouble for telling ATC he had a distress/urgency situation, and in that case, the pilot was lying about his fuel state to get a more direct routing -- and then did it again, later that day, on the way home.

Never heard of that [controller declaring emergency for pilot] happening. I'm not arguing the point, that's just unfamiliar to me.

Happens all the time when the controller needs to move planes to make way for a confused pilot or one unwilling to say the E-word. See FAA Order 7110.65, Chapter 10, Sections 10-1-1c and 10-2-5a2.

 

[TMetzinger]

Remember the PTS wording about "success of the manuever never seriously in doubt?" That's my standard for declaring an emergency. The minute I have serious doubts about successfully doing whatever I'm doing, it's time to ask for priority assistance.

So far it's never happened when I've been PIC. It happened a couple of times when I was getting instruction.

The way I look at it, Peggy "broke the chain" of causal factors that could have led up to an incident/accident. She gets points for her self-awareness that partially offset the points that she lost for the mistakes she made.

 

[Patch]

WTFO Exactly what ripping have I done in this thread? She made a mistake and admitted it - good job. The only discussion I've had is whether that warranted declaring an emergency.

 

[SkyHog]

WTFO

I get it, you're in the military. Congrats

Exactly what ripping have I done in this thread? She made a mistake and admitted it - good job. The only discussion I've had is whether that warranted declaring an emergency.

And that discussion is out of line. The SOLE reason to declare an emergency is because the pilot has determined that it is an emergency.

I had a similar problem happen way back, as a brand new pilot. I did not declare an emergency, because I did not feel it was an emergency (for me, in that situation), but that doesn't mean I'm gonna start strutting about how "Hey guys, I'm a military pilot!! Tumbleweed, tumbleweed, WTF, over!!" and whatnot.

She was PIC. Stop questioning her decision to make a PIC choice.

 

[Patch]

You are a moron, and you need to reread 14CFR 91.3 about 40 more times, and I think you finally get the point that the PIC is responsible for that decision.

Thank you for the namecalling, however, I am well aware of the PIC's responsibilities. You want to declare an emergency - fine, go right ahead. It's completely within your right. That doesn't make it appropriate in the given situation.

 

[Patch]

I get it, you're in the military. Congrats

What does WTFO have to do with military?

And that discussion is out of line. The SOLE reason to declare an emergency is because the pilot has determined that it is an emergency.

Bull****. Your attempted censorship of the discussion is out of line. Pilots aren't afforded the same opportunity to have their feelings shielded, so stop trying. We screw up - we make the news. That's the nature of the business whether you're a cropduster or airline guy.

As such, we have to take responsibility for our actions and welcome any discussion that could make us better. Peggy has done that, and I applaud her for it. You are sitting there trying to make excuses and prevent a healthy discussion.

What if she'd wandered into the ADIZ, giving Congress even more ammo to shut down GA? Would you still be saying that any discussion opposing "Poor you, good job for declaring an emergency" is inappropriate? Don't post your story in a public forum if you don't want people to critique you.

As for my participation in the discussion - I don't think getting lost warrants an emergency, but that's my personal criteria. I would have called for help - most certainly. Hopefully, I could've gotten vectors and a little bit of help. If they ignored me, then yes, I would've declared an emergency or found the nearest airfield and landed to get my bearings. Why? Because ATC has then put me in a situation where I need priority handling.

As I mentioned earlier, I think of an emergency as a situation where I need priority handling to get on the ground for whatever reason. Whether it's fuel, mechanical, etc. Otherwise, what good does the declaration do? Why be in such a hurry to tell the guy on the ground your plight in the air?

I had a similar problem happen way back, as a brand new pilot. I did not declare an emergency, because I did not feel it was an emergency (for me, in that situation), but that doesn't mean I'm gonna start strutting about how "Hey guys, I'm a military pilot!! Tumbleweed, tumbleweed, WTF, over!!" and whatnot.

Whatever.

She was PIC. Stop questioning her decision to make a PIC choice.

Cop-out.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Does it really warrant an emergency though? Fessing up to ATC and getting back on track does not necessarily mean you need priority handling, does it?

From several conversations with controllers, they consider a lost pilot one of the most serious situations they will encounter. CFIT, mid air collisions, fuel exhaustion, all of these things can happen stemming from lost situational awareness. The first thing they will ask is how much fuel aboard. Then they will straighten you out, and be glad to do it.

Peggy did the right thing, and it's obvious she learned from her mistake. No shame in asking for help when you are in need. As someone said, that's what controllers are paid for.

 

[IamBull]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my first post. Sometimes having SA means knowing and admiting to when you've lost it. So for that, good on ya. However, the situation could easily have been avoided.

I get it, you're in the military. Congrats



And that discussion is out of line. The SOLE reason to declare an emergency is because the pilot has determined that it is an emergency.

I had a similar problem happen way back, as a brand new pilot. I did not declare an emergency, because I did not feel it was an emergency (for me, in that situation), but that doesn't mean I'm gonna start strutting about how "Hey guys, I'm a military pilot!! Tumbleweed, tumbleweed, WTF, over!!" and whatnot.

She was PIC. Stop questioning her decision to make a PIC choice.

Yeah, because a PIC is NEVER wrong....gimme a break dude.

Here's another word for you: SNAP (sensitive new age pilot). SNAPs are never wrong and are easily offended by "bad language" and when you call them out for screwing up. They also like to make excuses for why they've f'd up and why others have. Gasp, who does that pilot think he is for calling someone out? This whole board is primarily made up of SNAPs, especially you, skyhog.

 

[SkyHog]

Here's another word for you: SNAP (sensitive new age pilot). SNAPs are never wrong and are easily offended by "bad language" and when you call them out for screwing up. They also like to make excuses for why they've f'd up and why others have. Gasp, who does that pilot think he is for calling someone out? This whole board is primarily made up of SNAPs, including you, skyhog.

Dude, I am not sensitive to squat. I've only truly been offended like once or twice since I turned 15, and both times involved seeing dead things. I don't mind being told I'm screwing up, or I've screwed up, or anything else.

I also do not allow people to call me out on something that is not true. For that I'll fight until the argument is over.

I am very big on defending those who are on attack for doing the right thing. You are trying to make Peggy feel like she did something wrong, when in reality, she made a mistake that you could make tomorrow, and she learned from it.

Why do I say you could make it tomorrow? Because even though you fly the almighty jet, you're still suceptible to making mistakes, as you are human (I presume).

So get off your little moral high horse about how "man, the new pilots are just sissies," and realise that you're probably just an old pathetic man who has to talk down to the younger folk to stroke your own ego.

You probably had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to go to school too, right?

 

[IamBull]

Dude, I am not sensitive to squat. I've only truly been offended like once or twice since I turned 15, and both times involved seeing dead things. I don't mind being told I'm screwing up, or I've screwed up, or anything else.

I also do not allow people to call me out on something that is not true. For that I'll fight until the argument is over.

I am very big on defending those who are on attack for doing the right thing. You are trying to make Peggy feel like she did something wrong, when in reality, she made a mistake that you could make tomorrow, and she learned from it.

Not making personal attacks, just saying how it is. You, on the other hand, are calling people names left and right. Hypocritical?

Why do I say you could make it tomorrow? Because even though you fly the almighty jet, you're still suceptible to making mistakes, as you are human (I presume).

Never said I never made a mistake.

So get off your little moral high horse about how "man, the new pilots are just sissies," and realise that you're probably just an old pathetic man who has to talk down to the younger folk to stroke your own ego.

Not saying all new pilots are "sissies". There just seems to be many SNAPs present on the board. I am neither old nor pathetic, next question. If you haven't figured it out yet, I really could care less how all of you think of me. I'm not here to stroke my ego.

You probably had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to go to school too, right?

Yes, in the snow with no shoes carrying a 50 pound pack.

 

[gibbons]

I'm locking this thread for a while pending MC review. This discussion isn't gaining any ground for anyone.

[Forum Moderator's note: Thread lock concurred - rbl]