I cannot believe what I just saw...

I deleted my comment as I didn't really want to get into it, but as someone quoted me before I hit delete..


Hot fueling/loading isn't that much of a risk, it isn't rocket surgery, it's done more frequently than you think, much ado about nothing.

I'm sure folks drive by the airport and see you get into your "small plane" and think you're some risk taking daredevil.
 
James331 said:
I deleted my comment as I didn't really want to get into it, but as someone quoted me before I hit delete..


Hot fueling/loading isn't that much of a risk, it isn't rocket surgery, it's done more frequently than you think, much ado about nothing.

I'm sure folks drive by the airport and see you get into your "small plane" and think you're some risk taking daredevil.
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Hot fueling is one thing. Leaving a plane running at a fuel pump, with only the parking brake set is another. This guy doesn't give a sh** about you or me and our family or property. PURE JACK ASS..
 
AKBill said:
Hot fueling is one thing. Leaving a plane running at a fuel pump, with only the parking brake set is another. This guy doesn't give a sh** about you or me and our family or property. PURE JACK ASS..
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Would I do what he did with my plane, no.


slinger said:
The man was successful in his endeavor? The horrors. The frustrated hall monitors are working overtime again.
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:yes:
 
slinger said:
The man was successful in his endeavor? The horrors. The frustrated hall monitors are working overtime again.
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Yup. If you're not competent or comfortable with hot fueling, then don't do it. Just don't be projecting your own incompetencies on other folks. Hot refueling isn't rocket science. It's no big deal.
 
He's ok doing all that shady stuff but too much of a ***** to hand prop it?
 
Pretty sure he didn't want to deal with a hot restart by hand prop.
 
Personally, I think the OP should have hopped in the airplane while the pilot was taking a whizz and relocated it to somewhere nice. Be fun having they guy explain why his airplane ran away.

Actually, I see no harm and no foul anywhere. If the pilot wants to act like an idiot, well, we've all been tempted at one time or another. Yeah, the OP could have made him go elsewhere, but for all you know the guy could have run out of gas on the way and crashed and died. Then the OP has blood on his hands. The guy did his stupid thing, got away with it and left. Given that it was so utterly amazing, I guess not so many people are doing similar, which is good.
 
I don't think I'd do anything exactly like this guy did, but I'm also not against hot fueling if necessary ("necessary" is subjective, for me a busted starter qualifies). But I'd plan it out a little better like doc did, explain the plan to the line guy, have him chock the tires, etc. Damn sure wouldn't try adding oil though. If low oil was a legit concern I'd want to shut down to be able to verify the level anyway.
 
Perhaps the OP could have offered to hold the brakes or offer him a start cart, I mean if he was this concerned?
 
James331 said:
Perhaps the OP could have offered to hold the brakes or offer him a start cart, I mean if he was this concerned?
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Unless I'm mistaken, isn't a 'start cart' just a ground power source?

The guy in question said his starter was shot. I don't think a ground power would have helped.

As far as offering to hold the brakes, that is the last thing the OP should do. The OP works for the FBO. If he assists the guy with hot fueling, and something goes wrong, the OP is now just as liable as the pilot.
 
Look, I have less of a problem with hot fueling than I do with leaving a plane unattended and having your passengers hustling (yes, that's an appropriate term) around your running prop. I've stated that I've hot fueled many a military and medical helicopter. I just find all of the things combined together a recipe for disaster. And by all means, if you're utilizing your own equipment, do whatever you please...but when it's my equipment and my employees' safety that you might be compromising, I tend to take a different view.

As I stated, if given a second chance, I would've handled the situation a lot differently. It is clear that there is a definite divide amongst everyone out there with regards to their feelings on this particular issue. Discussion is good...it's healthy...it promotes growth. Just don't expect me to budge too much on how I feel about what this person did here. It was a learning lesson for both myself and my employees I assure you.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Unless I'm mistaken, isn't a 'start cart' just a ground power source?

The guy in question said his starter was shot. I don't think a ground power would have helped.

As far as offering to hold the brakes, that is the last thing the OP should do. The OP works for the FBO. If he assists the guy with hot fueling, and something goes wrong, the OP is now just as liable as the pilot.
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Bum starter, my bad, correct.


I know we live in a litigious society, just seems better to ether try to make it safer for him or just turn my back to it.
 
dell30rb said:
That happened to me the other day. Auto shutoff did not work and gas started gushing out of my car. Fortunately I was standing right there and stopped it within 2 seconds.
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Speaking of auto shut offs, what's the deal with most FBOs fuel pumps auto shutoff feature???? They never work!!!! I ALWAYS end up spilling 2 or 3 gallons all over my wings because the darned thing doesn't stop by itself !!
 
LuisO said:
Speaking of auto shut offs, what's the deal with most FBOs fuel pumps auto shutoff feature???? They never work!!!! I ALWAYS end up spilling 2 or 3 gallons all over my wings because the darned thing doesn't stop by itself !!
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I've never seen a auto shutoff on a aviation fuel pump, or maybe they all have been broken lol.

Used to be funny watching a new student try to fuel this Grumman, they point the nozzle straight down, not thinking that it was a 90 degree bend in the fuel port to get the fuel into the wingspar fuel tanks, before I noticed they'd pull the trigger and get a geyser of 100LL, only made that mistake once though :D
 
SkyDog58 said:
He took a leak behind the terminal? What the heck was he thinking?
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That leaving the unattended airplane running while he went inside to pee was probably a step too far.
 
LuisO said:
Speaking of auto shut offs, what's the deal with most FBOs fuel pumps auto shutoff feature???? They never work!!!! I ALWAYS end up spilling 2 or 3 gallons all over my wings because the darned thing doesn't stop by itself !!
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James331 said:
I've never seen a auto shutoff on a aviation fuel pump, or maybe they all have been broken lol.
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This post gave me a chuckle, as I've never seen an auto shutoff on an aviation pump either.

That just might explain why they never seem to work. :lol:
 
Bobcat1 said:
Yup. If you're not competent or comfortable with hot fueling, then don't do it. Just don't be projecting your own incompetencies on other folks. Hot refueling isn't rocket science. It's no big deal.
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Yep, what he said. Hot fueling is a non-event. But leaving it running unattended is lsme.
 
mscard88 said:
I think the FBO owner/manager (OP) should just have turned the pump off and that would have been the end of it. Pilot takes off and goes hot refuel somewhere else! See, so easy a Caveman could do it! :D
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And when he runs out of fuel 10 miles short of his next stop the airport manager gets his/hers pants sued off by the grieving widow who is distraught over the callous indifference of said manager who needlessly withheld the fuel her poor blameless husband needed to safely continue the flight.

:dunno:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
And when he runs out of fuel 10 miles short of his next stop the airport manager gets his/hers pants sued off by the grieving widow who is distraught over the callous indifference of said manager who needlessly withheld the fuel her poor blameless husband needed to safely continue the flight.

:dunno:
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Yup...

Damned if you do.... Damned if you don't....:mad2::mad2::mad:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Tom, hot fueling in the Navy is SOP. We TRAIN for that. It is a routine operation and multiple people are involved all of whom are qualified or working under qualified supervision. And, because it's Navy....there are always safety observers present.

You cannot compare what we do in the Navy to a single pilot hot-fueling an Arrow at an FBO.
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In USAF we had hot refueling pits for our F-4s, there was a foam cannon right there with a guy with his finger on the trigger, a couple of crew chiefs to do the work, and everyone had to be signed off to participate.
 
He didn't have an accident and there was no incident.

So what went wrong here?
 
JimNtexas said:
In USAF we had hot refueling pits for our F-4s, there was a foam cannon right there with a guy with his finger on the trigger, a couple of crew chiefs to do the work, and everyone had to be signed off to participate.
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Where is the fuel port on the F-4 ?

Single point ?
 
I feel like adding oil would be a lot harder/more dangerous than fueling considering you're right up by the prop adding oil. Seems like some unnecessary risks were taken IMO...
 
SkyHog said:
He didn't have an accident and there was no incident.

So what went wrong here?
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I played in the street today and didn't get hurt.

So what went wrong there? Nothing. This time.

As has been pointed out it's risk management. He hooked up several links in the accident chain. The last one or two didn't get made this time.

Hot fueling for folks who know what they're doing (military, ag operators) is fine. Presumably everyone in the area knows what they are or are not doing.

Personally, I'm not sure the fueling was such a big deal thought I wouldn't choose to do it. Adding oil? Um no.Leaving the plane unattended running? No way!

My $.02 cents.

John
 
weilke said:
I have seen an Ag pilot load and fuel his Thrush with the engine running. Pulled up to his nurse-truck, got out, hooked up the hoses and filled whatever poison he was dispensing that day.
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Yes, a lot of us do that. We do it quite often.
 
I've had to be at the windscreen with the engine running to adjust a voltage regulator before. The plane tied down, chocks on all three wheels, and the parking brake was set. Overkill is under rated!

I've used the OP's fuel station before there is no way he was tied down. If he was chocked, parking brake set, and fueled from behind the wing he was reasonably safe. The question is, "How did he go from running engine and at the controls to chocked?" At some point the plane was not chocked and there was no one at the controls. These are high risk activities under the conditions given. This was not a military operation with trained crews who knew what their jobs were, a safety observer or three, and someone sitting in the seat at the controls. This was a monkey ****ing a football.

The OP could offer a hot fuel service with a specific procedure on how to handle it. Pilot at the controls, fuel guy handles the credit card, fuels the plane from behind the wing, and a safety observer with no other duties there to watch the whole thing while standing fight next to the cut off button. That is a LOT to ask of a FBO.
 
BGF_Yankee said:
I just watched an Arrow owner land, leave the aircraft running, vacate the aircraft (still running), hot fuel the aircraft, add oil, and then take a leak behind the self-service fuel terminal. The whole while he's running around the airplane. Said he had to leave it running because the starter didn't want to work this morning and he HAD to make it to Florida. I have more class or I'd post his tail number...*smh* You have gotta be ******** me. And people wonder why accidents happen.

I am mad at myself for two reasons...number one because I didn't stop the whole thing when I had a chance. I just kept telling myself that surely this is not what is happening. Number two though, I'm mad at myself for not documenting the whole incident. Some people NEED a little shaming.

All that being said, I just had a little pow-wow with my employees on what to do the next time anything even remotely close to this happens.
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The more I think about adding oil to a Arrow with the motor running , the more I can't even believe it is possible...:rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
The more I think about adding oil to a Arrow with the motor running , the more I can't even believe it is possible...:rolleyes:
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Yeah, I am honestly amazed at the people defending this guy.....but then, this IS the Internet. I probably shouldn't be that surprised.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
And when he runs out of fuel 10 miles short of his next stop the airport manager gets his/hers pants sued off by the grieving widow who is distraught over the callous indifference of said manager who needlessly withheld the fuel her poor blameless husband needed to safely continue the flight.

:dunno:
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FBO vs pilot's word maybe, only two who witnessed it. :eek: ;)
 
N801BH said:
The more I think about adding oil to a Arrow with the motor running , the more I can't even believe it is possible...:rolleyes:
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Maybe he used the oil door to shield the spout from the propwash and...

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That's pretty insane. How did he know it needed oil?

Bottom line is that the OP owns or runs the FBO. His FBO, his rules.
 

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Everskyward said:
Maybe he used the oil door to shield the spout from the propwash and...

That's pretty insane. How did he know it needed oil?

Bottom line is that the OP owns or runs the FBO. His FBO, his rules.
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If it is his personal plane then he probably know how much oil it uses. I know I do. If he had an attachment on the bottle then it is pretty easy to do.

http://www.amazon.com/Hopkins-10107B-12-FloTool-No-Spill/dp/B0000AXRH0

Heck, a funnel could be enough to keep it from making a mess. http://www.amazon.com/Hopkins-10718...e=UTF8&qid=1445028770&sr=1-10&keywords=funnel

All of this is do able if the plane is properly secured (I don't believe it was), but is the reward worth the risk?
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
If it is his personal plane then he probably know how much oil it uses.
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If his aircraft is burning that much oil on one bag of gas that it requires refilling under those circumstances....well it just adds further insight to his ADM.
 
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