I can haz a rental twin

zaitcev

zaitcev

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Pete Zaitcev
Actually, I cannot, because I don't have a multi rating. But "my" FBO is now offering a Cougar for rent. Wow! I wish they had a Mooney though... At $258/hr this bird is a bit outside my $500 burger comfort zone. I'm wondering how they plan to find renters to make the plane pay for itself, unless it's intended to be a "loss leader flagship". It sure looks pretty on the ramp.
 
Why would any FBO put anything out to rent beyond a 172 or a PA28-180? Otherwise the LSA d-bags would just rip on it.
 
zaitcev said:
At $258/hr this bird is a bit outside my $500 burger comfort zone. I'm wondering how they plan to find renters to make the plane pay for itself
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Depends on what else is available in the area. There are still plenty of folks trying to get multi ratings and build twin time. If that is all that is available, then the plane might be able to pay for itself. I'd say $258 sounds a little high, but not outrageous for a light twin depending on the area.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Depends on what else is available in the area. There are still plenty of folks trying to get multi ratings and build twin time. If that is all that is available, then the plane might be able to pay for itself. I'd say $258 sounds a little high, but not outrageous for a light twin depending on the area.
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I'd say that's a pretty normal rate. Near here, I can get a Travel Air for $253/hr, or drive to Madison and get a Seneca for over $300/hr.

Last I calculated ownership costs (for a Twin Comanche, similar to a Cougar or a Travel Air cost-wise), I'd be looking at $200/hr even when flying 150 hours/year. Rental insurance costs way more, and I wouldn't count on getting a whole lot more hours than that. So, I'd say the $258 is probably reasonable.

Twin rental rates sure have gone up a lot in the last 5 years, though. :(
 
The Apache I own trained a lot of pilots over the years... I have had it for 11 years now (not for rent) and I still get students and instructors wanting to rent it... So the demand for a multi to rent is there...

The problem is that renters (at least here in Michigan) don't understand that given the cost of insurance and engine overhaul and fuel pushing $6.00 a gallon means it would have to rent for $300 an hour... At that price I cannot rent enough annual hours to even cover the insurance... A Catch 22 situation which is why there are so few multis for rent to GA pilots...

denny-o
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'd say that's a pretty normal rate. Near here, I can get a Travel Air for $253/hr, or drive to Madison and get a Seneca for over $300/hr.(
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I think it really depends on the area. Down in Florida I could get a Duchess for $186/hr wet and $215/hr wet + dual for a Seneca I.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I think it really depends on the area. Down in Florida I could get a Duchess for $186/hr wet and $215/hr wet + dual for a Seneca I.
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When, and where (what airport/fbo)?

You're right that it depends on the area, but rental rates for singles up here are quite reasonable.
 
Dr. O said:
The problem is that renters (at least here in Michigan) don't understand that given the cost of insurance and engine overhaul and fuel pushing $6.00 a gallon means it would have to rent for $300 an hour... At that price I cannot rent enough annual hours to even cover the insurance... A Catch 22 situation which is why there are so few multis for rent to GA pilots...
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Sad. :(

I did my multi in Michigan in an Apache about 2.5 years ago (with Tom Brady). With a flat rate for the rating, it came out to about $200/hr for dual, which is a steal. But, I'm guessing Tom only insures it for dual instruction and not for rental, and he also runs auto gas in it (good ol' 150hp) which saves a bundle I'm sure.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
When, and where (what airport/fbo)?

You're right that it depends on the area, but rental rates for singles up here are quite reasonable.
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The Duchess is at KDAB and the Seneca at KXFL (Just north of Daytona Beach). For a while, there was a turbo Seminole in Daytona Beach for $199/hr.
 
Kent, given insurance and fuel costs you got a bargain... He's doing instruction for the love of it and hoping to break even on his expenses...

Even with my gentle handling a 54 year old airplane takes a lot of love and $$ to get through the year, every year.. This years annual included new ECI Titan cylinders on the left engine, rebuild the fuel shut off valves, rebush the elevator rods in the tail cone, and a number of other small items... Last year included new gear hoses and seals in the hydraulic cylinders, and some gear bushings, and a replacement squat valve, and a new hinge for the rudder trim tab.... The year before was new cylinders on the left engine and the 1000 hour inspection on the props and a remanufactured power pack... Before that was making the flap AD go away, new fuel and oil lines with fire sleeves... Etc., etc. until you go blind.. Owning an old airplane is so much fun...
denny-o and Fat Albert the Apache
 
You know, they wanted to buy an Apache, but switched to Cougar at the last moment, citing "maintenance costs".
 
Fearless Tower said:
Depends on what else is available in the area. There are still plenty of folks trying to get multi ratings and build twin time. If that is all that is available, then the plane might be able to pay for itself. I'd say $258 sounds a little high, but not outrageous for a light twin depending on the area.
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Nope, that's going to be about right. $90hr of that is going to insurance, and that's if it sees 100hrs a year. I'd need to see $350 on the 310.
 
Henning said:
Nope, that's going to be about right. $90hr of that is going to insurance, and that's if it sees 100hrs a year. I'd need to see $350 on the 310.
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Yeah, but that is your 310. Like others have said, it depends on the area. In San Diego, the going rate for a 4 seat trainer type twin is about 200/hr. Something like a Duchess or Seminole are going to get more use rental-wise than a 310 and therefore be able to operate at a lower rate.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yeah, but that is your 310. Like others have said, it depends on the area. In San Diego, the going rate for a 4 seat trainer type twin is about 200/hr. Something like a Duchess or Seminole are going to get more use rental-wise than a 310 and therefore be able to operate at a lower rate.
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I'd suspect that a large portion of what Henning would have to charge, regardless of use, would be for insurance.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yeah, but that is your 310. Like others have said, it depends on the area. In San Diego, the going rate for a 4 seat trainer type twin is about 200/hr.
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Really? Where?

San Diego, Phoenix, etc. have the advantage that with the nice weather, foreigners tend to go there for flight training, and they're gonna want multi time. So, the FBO can get lots of hours on their planes and minimize the hourly cost of the insurance.

When times were good, I asked about the Seneca here - It was getting ~600 hrs/year, but at least half of that was charter.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Plus One,
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Wow - A PA-46!

And two Dutchesses (Dutchi?) - $185/hr without GPS, $205/hr with.

However, this is a club, not a pure rental, so I would expect lower rates. $99 to get in and $34.50/month on top of the rental rates. However, it sure looks like a good club and I'd definitely consider joining if I was in the area. Rates look reasonable ('cept the C182's and RG's seem quite high) and there's a pretty nice variety in the fleet.

National Air College, California Flight Academy...etc. Rates for a BE-76 run from 180-210/hr. There is even a Seneca I at MYF that is running around 190/hr.
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Huh... Yup, NAC's got a Duchess for $180... Nice.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
And two Dutchesses (Dutchi?) - $185/hr without GPS, $205/hr with.
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What's funny is NO ONE flies the 185/hr one....it's a POS. It might get 5 hrs in a good month. The $205 one (rate just went up from 199 the past few weeks) flies around 30 hrs a month.

We also have an Aztec (250/hr), but no one flies that either. It maybe gets 2-3 hrs a month, but it requires 5 hrs of dual before you can check it out - that's $1000 before you can do anything with it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
How much? Jeez, this is the first time I've seen an Aztec for rent since the local one here went off-line. (It's been so for a few years, and is now for sale:)
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I was renting an Aztec in Kansas City at LXT for $250/hr (or $225/hr if you bought 10 hours) back a few summers ago. Not sure what it's at now, but its probably still close to that.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I was renting an Aztec in Kansas City at LXT for $250/hr (or $225/hr if you bought 10 hours) back a few summers ago. Not sure what it's at now, but its probably still close to that.
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I dunno - There's been a huge increase in rental prices over the past few years, it seems like. :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I dunno - There's been a huge increase in rental prices over the past few years, it seems like. :dunno:
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In the last 2 years? Not really. Fuel isn't any higher now than it was 2 years ago in most places. I've rented in the last few months at the same rates I rented at 2 years ago, with no fuel surcharges.
 
Is it also on some sort of air-taxi cert.? Often the insurance is the same if you rent it out to high timers or so some instruction in it when its not flying.

There are many who still need twin time and there really are very few P61 twins left.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
In the last 2 years? Not really. Fuel isn't any higher now than it was 2 years ago in most places. I've rented in the last few months at the same rates I rented at 2 years ago, with no fuel surcharges.
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Yeah, the last 2 years have been pretty stable, especially WRT the fuel part of the equation, but before that, from maybe 2005-2008, the prices were skyrocketing. But "a few summers ago" to me means earlier, otherwise it'd have been "a couple summers ago." ;)

Sadly, fuel prices are now slightly worse than they were when they were at their worst in 2008, so if this current price spike sticks, we can expect rental rates to go up again. :(

The other thing is that some places were increasing rates to try to cover their fixed costs due to the slowdown in business from the recession. Of course, that means even less usage, so it's a pretty misguided attempt to try to stay profitable that is highly unlikely to work... But nobody ever accused most aviation businesses of being run by good business people. :frown2:
 
I wish someone rented a Mooney M20 (any suffix) within the range of my rental Cherokee. I'd love to go and get a checkout in that.
 
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