Hypothetical (Ron Levy...please advise)

Ron Levy said:
Thanks for the clarification. That covers INdigo's question about someone with an AMEL getting a 61.55(b) SIC checkout in a B777 from a CFI-AME -- it would be legal under the FAR's. However, this would not help the person trying to obtain an initial ME rating in a 2-pilots required aircraft (Greg's question), since nobody would be qualified under 61.55 to be the SIC even in training.
Click to expand...

FWIW, my old Chief Pilot was hired by Eastern Airlines in the mid '60s with only his PP rating. He did his Instrument/Comm/ME ride in the DC-9 sim and t/o's and landings in the DC-9.
 
Everskyward said:
You mean a Part 91 777? I don't know either.

The reason I started thinking about it is that I have about .5 dual received in a Lear 35, which included a takeoff and a landing, before I had ever been to school. Maybe I should also add that an FAA inspector was in the back.

I'm sure you could do it in a sim but I'm wondering how you could do it in an airplane. Who would be the SIC while you were getting training? That would be interesting to find out, though.
Click to expand...

I think that the various Ferry/Delivery/Repo flights of transport category aircraft are all part 91. At least that's what an ILFC (International Lease Finance Corp) staff pilot told me once when he described what he did. How that fits into part 125 I don't know - The ILFC operation may hold a 135 certificate.
 
Last edited:
TMetzinger said:
I think that the various Ferry/Delivery/Repo flights of transport category aircraft are all part 91. At least that's what an ILFC (International Lease Finance Corp) staff pilot told me once when he described what he did. How that fits into part 125 I don't know - The ILFC operation may hold a 135 certificate.
Click to expand...

You don't need any kind of operating certificate to deliver transport category aircraft, just the applicable type rating and crew compliment.

I was hired at one time to pick up and deliver a B727 for an individual, all done under part 91.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
FWIW, my old Chief Pilot was hired by Eastern Airlines in the mid '60s with only his PP rating. He did his Instrument/Comm/ME ride in the DC-9 sim and t/o's and landings in the DC-9.
Click to expand...
IIRC, Eastern Air Lines had a Private Pilot flying as a captain for some time in those days, so nothing Eastern did back then would surprise me. And I think the Part 61 rules may have been significantly different back then, too.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You don't need any kind of operating certificate to deliver transport category aircraft, just the applicable type rating and crew compliment.

I was hired at one time to pick up and deliver a B727 for an individual, all done under part 91.
Click to expand...
Under which of the seven exemption paragraphs for Part 125 would that flight have fallen?
(b) The rules of this part do not apply to the operations of airplanes specified in paragraph (a) of this section, when--
(1) They are required to be operated under Part 121, 129, 135, or 137 of this chapter;
(2) They have been issued restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificates, special flight permits, or experimental certificates;
(3) They are being operated by a Part 125 certificate holder without carrying passengers or cargo under Part 91 for training, ferrying, positioning, or maintenance purposes;
(4) They are being operated under part 91 by an operator certificated to operate those airplanes under the rules of parts 121, 135, or 137 of this chapter, they are being operated under the applicable rules of part 121 or part 135 of this chapter by an applicant for a certificate under part 119 of this chapter or they are being operated by a foreign air carrier or a foreign person engaged in common carriage solely outside the United States under part 91 of this chapter;
(5) They are being operated under a deviation authority issued under Sec. 125.3;
(6) They are being operated under part 91, subpart K by a fractional owner as defined in Sec. 91.1001 of this chapter; or
(7) They are being operated by a fractional ownership program manager as defined in Sec. 91.1001 of this chapter, for training, ferrying, positioning, maintenance, or demonstration proposes under part 91 of this chapter and without carrying passengers or cargo for compensation or hire except as permitted for demonstration flights under Sec. 91.501(b)(3) of this chapter.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
IIRC, Eastern Air Lines had a Private Pilot flying as a captain for some time in those days, so nothing Eastern did back then would surprise me. And I think the Part 61 rules may have been significantly different back then, too.
Click to expand...

For a period in the mid '60's there was a shortage of pilots, so Eastern Airlines would hire an individual with a Private and complete their training and put them on the line.
 
Ron Levy said:
Under which of the seven exemption paragraphs for Part 125 would that flight have fallen?
Click to expand...


It's not a part 125 operation, it's strictly Part 91.


FAR Part 119.1

(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to -
(1) Student instruction;

 (3) Ferry or training flights;
 
The question was Part 125, not 119. Here's the full 125.1:
Sec. 125.1

Applicability.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing the operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes which have a seating configuration of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more when common carriage is not involved.
(b) The rules of this part do not apply to the operations of airplanes specified in paragraph (a) of this section, when--
(1) They are required to be operated under Part 121, 129, 135, or 137 of this chapter;
(2) They have been issued restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificates, special flight permits, or experimental certificates;
(3) They are being operated by a Part 125 certificate holder without carrying passengers or cargo under Part 91 for training, ferrying, positioning, or maintenance purposes;
(4) They are being operated under part 91 by an operator certificated to operate those airplanes under the rules of parts 121, 135, or 137 of this chapter, they are being operated under the applicable rules of part 121 or part 135 of this chapter by an applicant for a certificate under part 119 of this chapter or they are being operated by a foreign air carrier or a foreign person engaged in common carriage solely outside the United States under part 91 of this chapter;
(5) They are being operated under a deviation authority issued under Sec. 125.3;
(6) They are being operated under part 91, subpart K by a fractional owner as defined in Sec. 91.1001 of this chapter; or
(7) They are being operated by a fractional ownership program manager as defined in Sec. 91.1001 of this chapter, for training, ferrying, positioning, maintenance, or demonstration proposes under part 91 of this chapter and without carrying passengers or cargo for compensation or hire except as permitted for demonstration flights under Sec. 91.501(b)(3) of this chapter.
(c) The rules of this part, except Sec. 125.247, do not apply to the operation of airplanes specified in paragraph (a) when they are operated outside the United States by a person who is not a citizen of the United States.
(d) The provisions of this part apply to each person on board an aircraft being operated under this part, unless otherwise specified.
(e) This part also establishes requirements for operators to take actions to support the continued airworthiness of each airplane.
Click to expand...
I don't see anything there which provides exemption from Part 125 for a 727 being ferried by a private owner. What am I missing?
 
Ron Levy said:
The question was Part 125, not 119. Here's the full 125.1:
I don't see anything there which provides exemption from Part 125 for a 727 being ferried by a private owner. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Part 119 " CERTIFICATION: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS"

You're putting the cart before the horse. 14 CFR 119 lays down the requirements of what's required to certify "air carriers". Once you read through 119 and establish what type of air carrier applies (121, 125, 135,etc) then you go to applicable section and apply those set of CFR's.

119.1 is clear that for a large aircraft: Except for operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to Ferry or training flights.
 
I think we need to review that sentence with an English teacher. As I read it, it says that aircraft of that size are excepted from the ferry/training flight exclusion, and thus the rules do apply.

Unless, of course, the Chief Counsel has a different book of English grammar than they taught in my schools, and I wouldn't put that beyond the realm of imagination.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
I think we need to review that sentence with an English teacher. As I read it, it says that aircraft of that size are excepted from the ferry/training flight exclusion, and thus the rules do apply.

Unless, of course, the Chief Counsel has a different book of English grammar than they taught in my schools, and I wouldn't put that beyond the realm of imagination.
Click to expand...


I don't see the issue here and it was very clear in the Air Carrier certification courses at the MMAC in OKC.
 
That sentence wouldn't pass muster with any English teacher - you have multiple clauses and no commas to determine if they join in an AND or OR function.

And if 119 doesn't apply, then I assume all the other parts don't apply?
 
TMetzinger said:
That sentence wouldn't pass muster with any English teacher - you have multiple clauses and no commas to determine if they join in an AND or OR function.

And if 119 doesn't apply, then I assume all the other parts don't apply?
Click to expand...


Please read 119.1 in it's entirety. Perhaps that will clear it up.
 
Regardless of the 119.1 grammar controversy, 125.1 says:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing the operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes which have a seating configuration of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more when common carriage is not involved.
(b) The rules of this part do not apply to the operations of airplanes specified in paragraph (a) of this section, when—

>snip<

(3) They are being operated by a part 125 certificate holder without carrying passengers or cargo under part 91 for training, ferrying, positioning, or maintenance purposes;
Click to expand...
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Please read 119.1 in it's entirety. Perhaps that will clear it up.
Click to expand...
You mean like 119.1(a)(2)?
Sec. 119.1

Applicability.

(a) This part applies to each person operating or intending to operate civil aircraft -
(1) As an air carrier or commercial operator, or both, in air commerce; or
(2) When common carriage is not involved, in operations of U.S. - registered civil airplanes with a seat configuration of 20 or more passengers, or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more.
Click to expand...
So far, both of your references to 119.1 appear to support my reading of the regs. Of course, if they're teaching something else at the Academy, it would be interesting to hear how they justify that in light of the plain language of the regulation, i.e., to see that Chief Counsel grammar lesson I mentioned above.
 
It's clear that a 125 certificate holder can operate ferry flights under part 91. But I think the point under discussion is whether all large airplanes are required to be operated by operating certificate holders.

Or put another way, if I was a gazillionaire, could I buy a BBJ2, get typed, hire additional crew as required by airplane's type certificate, and go off and fly around, or would I have to get a 125 operating certificate first?

Edit - Ron's post seems to support the contention that anybody who flies large airplanes needs to get an operating/operator certificate, even if they aren't doing common carriage.
 
TMetzinger said:
It's clear that a 125 certificate holder can operate ferry flights under part 91. But I think the point under discussion is whether all large airplanes are required to be operated by operating certificate holders.

Or put another way, if I was a gazillionaire, could I buy a BBJ2, get typed, hire additional crew as required by airplane's type certificate, and go off and fly around, or would I have to get a 125 operating certificate first?

Edit - Ron's post seems to support the contention that anybody who flies large airplanes needs to get an operating/operator certificate, even if they aren't doing common carriage.
Click to expand...
Oh, OK. I thought that at the end we were just talking about training and ferry flights since you mentioned IFLC.
 
Ron Levy said:
You mean like 119.1(a)(2)?
So far, both of your references to 119.1 appear to support my reading of the regs. Of course, if they're teaching something else at the Academy, it would be interesting to hear how they justify that in light of the plain language of the regulation, i.e., to see that Chief Counsel grammar lesson I mentioned above.
Click to expand...


Once again you are trying to "cherry pick" the parts that agree with you and ignore the others.

Call one of your friends in DC and have him explain it to you or go read the preamble of 14 cfr 119.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Once again you are trying to "cherry pick" the parts that agree with you and ignore the others.

Call one of your friends in DC and have him explain it to you or go read the preamble of 14 cfr 119.
Click to expand...

What preamble? Faa.gov starts 14 CFR 119 with 119.1. Is there supposed to be something else?
 
Grammar Nazi here.

The way it is written, it says that airplanes that have 20 or more seats, intended for carrying passengers, has a payload of at least 6,000 lbs and are involved in common carriage are not bound by this part.

The confusing part is using both the words "Except" and "not involved" in the same dependent clause. That's a dumb way to word it.
 
Everskyward said:
Regardless of the 119.1 grammar controversy, 125.1 says:
Click to expand...

I saw the same thing. Ron evidently didn't, so I will say it again for you:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing the operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes which have a seating configuration of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more when common carriage is not involved.
(b) The rules of this part do not apply to the operations of airplanes specified in paragraph (a) of this section, when—

>snip<

(3) They are being operated by a part 125 certificate holder without carrying passengers or cargo under part 91 for training, ferrying, positioning, or maintenance purposes;
 
EdFred said:
I saw the same thing. Ron evidently didn't, so I will say it again for you:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing the operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes which have a seating configuration of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more when common carriage is not involved.
(b) The rules of this part do not apply to the operations of airplanes specified in paragraph (a) of this section, when—

>snip<

(3) They are being operated by a part 125 certificate holder without carrying passengers or cargo under part 91 for training, ferrying, positioning, or maintenance purposes;
Click to expand...

You forgot that they still have to be operated by a part 125 certificate holder.

As I read this, you can't operate a large airplane unless you have an appropriate air carrier or operator certificate. Certainly you can operate under part 91 once you do have that certificate.
 
TMetzinger said:
You forgot that they still have to be operated by a part 125 certificate holder.

As I read this, you can't operate a large airplane unless you have an appropriate air carrier or operator certificate. Certainly you can operate under part 91 once you do have that certificate.
Click to expand...

Not true. See the exclusions under 119.1(e)
 
"(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to.."


OK, I read this as saying this part DOES apply to operations when common carriage is not involved conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more.

That "Except for / does not apply" language is obviously where we are disagreeing.

Edit - here's the "matching" language in part 91:
Subpart F - Large and Turbine-Powered Multiengine Airplanes and Fractional Ownership Program Aircraft
Source: Docket No. 18334, 54 FR 34314, Aug. 18, 1989, unless otherwise noted.
§ 91.501 Applicability.
(a) This subpart prescribes operating rules, in addition to those prescribed in other subparts of this part, governing the operation of large airplanes of U.S. registry, turbojet-powered multiengine civil airplanes of U.S. registry, and fractional ownership program aircraft of U.S. registry that are operating under subpart K of this part in operations not involving common carriage. The operating rules in this subpart do not apply to those aircraft when they are required to be operated under parts 121, 125, 129, 135, and 137 of this chapter. (Section 91.409 prescribes an inspection program for large and for turbine-powered (turbojet and turboprop) multiengine airplanes and turbine-powered rotorcraft of U.S. registry when they are operated under this part or part 129 or 137.)
(b) Operations that may be conducted under the rules in this subpart instead of those in parts 121, 129, 135, and 137 of this chapter when common carriage is not involved, include -
(1) Ferry or training flights;
(2) Aerial work operations such as aerial photography or survey, or pipeline patrol, but not including firefighting operations;
(3) Flights for the demonstration of an airplane to prospective customers when no charge is made except for those specified in paragraph (d) of this section;
(4) Flights conducted by the operator of an airplane for his personal transportation, or the transportation of his guests when no charge, assessment, or fee is made for the transportation;
Click to expand...

Note there's no exclusion for part 125 in the highlighted section. So I still arrive at the conclusion that a large airplane needs to be operated by a 125/121/135 certificate holder, though it may operate under part 91 rules for certain flights.
 
Last edited:
You could apply for a "LODA" (letter of deviation authority) and not be required to have an operating certificate.

See 8900.1, Volume 2, Chapter 6, Sect 3.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You could apply for a "LODA" (letter of deviation authority) and not be required to have an operating certificate.

See 8900.1, Volume 2, Chapter 6, Sect 3.
Click to expand...
No argument there... But are we agreed that:

Large airplanes can be operated under part 91, flown by appropriately rated pilots, as long as the "operator" of the flight has the appropriate certificate (121/135/125/etc) or has been given the appropriate deviation or waiver?

Nick and I can't go buy a Boeing 737, get typed, and just go flying without complying with the paragraph above?
 
Doesn't Travolta do that with his 707 ?
 
Found this in my notes from class at the Academy if anyone is interested:

flowchartaircarrier-1.jpg
 
Last edited:
TMetzinger said:
Looking at that, if it's not "Air Commerce" then none of those parts apply?
Click to expand...
Now we can discuss the meaning of "Air Commerce". :rofl:

Air commerce means interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce or the transportation of mail by aircraft or any operation or navigation of aircraft within the limits of any Federal airway or any operation or navigation of aircraft which directly affects, or which may endanger safety in, interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce.
Click to expand...
The English teacher in me says that would include pretty much all air traffic unless you stay away from airways. Even that is an outdated concept since many aircraft which are engaging in interstate commerce fly direct routes and you could be endangering them by just being in the air. :lightning:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top