Human versus Autopilot

[Fearless Tower]

I was feeling all bad about my zig-zaggy tracks the other day (no AP in my beast) then I flew a couple hours on the weekend in an a/c with an AP and found myself wondering how folks stay awake while using george! I think I need the stimulus of working the yoke in a piston plane to avoid somnolence.

That is one of the biggest problems with auto-pilots.

The A/P (modern ones at least) will almost always be able to fly the airplane better than a human and with greater precision.

The problem, however, is that as alot of human factors studies have shown - humans notoriously bad at 'monitoring' things compared to actually doing them and 'monitoring' is exactly what auto-pilot flying is all about.

The current challenge in the avionics and cockpit design world these days is trying to develop effective displays to reduce the chance of errors or overlooked indications by the monitoring pilot.

 

[Fearless Tower]

By today's standards of technology, that video (1997) is clearly outdated. It follows on the heels of the 1995 American Airlines 757 crash in Columbia.

With today's "big picture" moving map presentations on panel mounted GPS systems as well as many handhelds...........pilots will know exactly where they are in relation to airports, navaids, and especially rising mountain terrain. I give very little validity, to informational videos such as this, that were created so long ago. It has a lot less relevance today.

L.Adamson

Kind of funny to hear someone say that because within the airline and corporate flying worlds that video is still highly respected today. While it is acknowledged that some of the material is dated, to brush it off as 'it can't happen to me with modern avionics' is....well asking for it to happen to you.

Even with the moving maps of today, people still manage to screw things up when the overly trust the computer and don't provide critical oversight.

 

[Jaybird180]

The AP in most of our light ga aircraft will try too hard in turbulence and instead of riding out minor changes it fights quickly to maintain the desired profile and as a result isn't very smooth. Some of them (like the Stechs) have a tendency to try and hunt around a bit as well.

Although I didn't have opportunity to really "shake it out", the AP was very gentle in it's corrections. But I was already flying a ship that was stable to begin with. The stability of the SR22 in comparison makes the Skylane feel like a the proverbial vibrating bed in a cheap hotel.

Unless you're flying a G1000/Avidyne or bigger airplane, you're not flying an FMC.

Most GA airplanes only offer the "2nd" level of automation, not the third.

I don't see any discrepancy between the Garmin/Cessna philosophy of having the autopilot fly the airplane and the AA philosophy of choosing the appropriate level of automation.

The problem the AA video addresses is what happens when you get changes (such as ATC starting to give you vectors). Don't try and reprogram the FMS - use the autopilot controls to set the new heading or altitude. You'll notice that AA doesn't say disconnect the autopilot except in limited cases, like a runway change.

I was flying with a Garmin Perspective system. Would that qualify?

 

[TMetzinger]

Although I didn't have opportunity to really "shake it out", the AP was very gentle in it's corrections. But I was already flying a ship that was stable to begin with. The stability of the SR22 in comparison makes the Skylane feel like a the proverbial vibrating bed in a cheap hotel.




I was flying with a Garmin Perspective system. Would that qualify?

Yep, to a certain extent. The G1000 systems, particularly with WAAS, are pretty powerful, and it's easy to have the autopilot in NAV and VNV and have it do something unexpected if you don't know what is really driving (being the input) for the autopilot.

Last night I watched two pilots try and figure out why the autopilot wasn't following the magenta line on the missed approach off of the ILS. To their credit, after about 10 seconds of WTF the pilot disconnected the autopilot and manually turned toward the course line. He then pretty quickly found that the CDI was still being driven by the localizer and once he switched it back to the GPS the autopilot was happy to fly the line. So he went from mode three - autopilot flying being driven (he thought) by the GPS/FMS, to mode one - flying the airplane himself. He could have also gone to mode two by putting the autopilot in heading mode and steered the airplane with the heading bug.

As a safety pilot, I've seen other people spend far too long trying to figure out why the automation isn't doing what they think it should be doing, rather than getting the airplane on the proper flight path first.

 

[Jaybird180]

...and the lesson today kids is....


Fly the airplane First

 

[L.Adamson]

Kind of funny to hear someone say that because within the airline and corporate flying worlds that video is still highly respected today. While it is acknowledged that some of the material is dated, to brush it off as 'it can't happen to me with modern avionics' is....well asking for it to happen to you.

Even with the moving maps of today, people still manage to screw things up when the overly trust the computer and don't provide critical oversight.

For starters, much of the airline and corporate world, are still behind a Cessna 172/Garmin 1000 "trainer" plane, when it comes to GPS/mapping capabilities. Unfortunately, that's still a fact. I can think of where a nice Jeppeson based moving map of the airport's runways could have been extremely helpful, I'm sure you can too. Those Cessna's I speak of have it, and so did my Garmin portable.

I'd be foolish to brush off any sense of responsibility, modern avionics or not. I'll never simply follow the magenta line. I know of numerous accidents, in which the pilots did follow the "black" line (not magenta at the time) and got into serious consequences. Still, that video is outdated, as modern systems contain much more valuable information at a glance, as well as audio warnings far in advance.

L.Adamson

 

[Fearless Tower]

as well as audio warnings far in advance.

You mean like gear warning horns and aircraft configuration alarms that pilots have been known to ignore with disastrous results?

 

[DavidWhite]

Back in my day we didnt have autopilots, all we had was Wilbur yelling at us from the ground

 

[Everskyward]

I've seen other people spend far too long trying to figure out why the automation isn't doing what they think it should be doing, rather than getting the airplane on the proper flight path first.

I have too, and that would include myself.

 

[Geico266]

I think that in the near future there will be general aviation autopilots that 'refuse to crash' into mountains and other vertical obstructions.

You mean like gear warning horns and aircraft configuration alarms that pilots have been known to ignore with disastrous results?

My Chelton EFIS screams at me if I get too close to obstructions. You can't even turn this function off, so she is always watching. So no, I cannot fly the auto pilot into a mountain or tower without first being warned several times in different voices and sound levels. You cannot ignore her. The "B" is always back seat flying. Kinda reminds me of my X.

Then again, mine is experimental so I can upgrade the panel any time with the latest and greatest gizmos my wallet can take. Yet another reason experimental are a good way to go.

 

[Fearless Tower]

My Chelton EFIS screams at me if I get too close to obstructions. You can't even turn this function off, so she is always watching. So no, I cannot fly the auto pilot into a mountain or tower without first being warned several times in different voices and sound levels. You cannot ignore her. The "B" is always back seat flying. Kinda reminds me of my X.

I have no experience with the Chelton, but I will say this after completing my recent Human Factors grad ed course - you'd be suprised at what the human brain can tune out under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

 

[SkyHog]

From my "All About Autopilots" presentation:

An autopilot is a cross between a zombie and a CFI.
An autopilot is like a CFI because it can fly the airplane very well, probably better than you.
An autopilot is like a zombie because it needs brains. YOUR brains. B...R...A...I...N...S...

So its exactly like 99% of CFIs out there then....

 

[SkyHog]

Autopilot is awesome for people that have grown so bored of flying that they'd rather just get to the destination without enjoy the mode of getting there.

 

[jesse]

So its exactly like 99% of CFIs out there then....

I'd bet the average active CFI will fly the airplane better then the average private aircraft owner. You haven't flown with a lot of the "average" aircraft owners out there Nick. You'd be shocked. The pilots that participate in these communities are generally much better than average.

You've got a lot of owners that are flying around in their airplanes and haven't had any formal training in about 20 years. They get by on whipped flight reviews over the years...and the result is pretty -- interesting.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Autopilot is awesome for people that have grown so bored of flying that they'd rather just get to the destination without enjoy the mode of getting there.

I take it you don't do much SPIFR?

 

[jesse]

Autopilot is awesome for people that have grown so bored of flying that they'd rather just get to the destination without enjoy the mode of getting there.

There is a lot more to flying then having your hands on the controls. I don't feel like I'm not flying when I'm instructing and 99% of my instruction is hands off.

Same goes for an autopilot. If I go on a trip in the Debonair I'm likely to go autopilot on as I'm making the transition from tower to departure. It gives me time to focus my attention on other flying tasks and to just take in the view.

 

[Jaybird180]

You haven't flown with a lot of the "average" aircraft owners out there Nick. You'd be shocked. The pilots that participate in these communities are generally much better than average.

You've got a lot of owners that are flying around in their airplanes and haven't had any formal training in about 20 years. They get by on whipped flight reviews over the years...and the result is pretty -- interesting.

Be Afraid....Be very afraid

 

[TMetzinger]

There is a lot more to flying then having your hands on the controls. I don't feel like I'm not flying when I'm instructing and 99% of my instruction is hands off.

Same goes for an autopilot. If I go on a trip in the Debonair I'm likely to go autopilot on as I'm making the transition from tower to departure. It gives me time to focus my attention on other flying tasks and to just take in the view.

That's right - the worst autopilot I ever used was the new student in the left seat.

 

[SkyHog]

There is a lot more to flying then having your hands on the controls. I don't feel like I'm not flying when I'm instructing and 99% of my instruction is hands off.

Same goes for an autopilot. If I go on a trip in the Debonair I'm likely to go autopilot on as I'm making the transition from tower to departure. It gives me time to focus my attention on other flying tasks and to just take in the view.

That's what I don't get....I've flown some complex airplanes (nothing like a jet, mind you, but still). What else is there to flying?

Tuning radios (you can do that without AP just fine)?
Folding Charts (you don't really need to do that with the iPad/Android devices)?
Briefing an approach (sure....but you could also do that while flying....this is, however, about the only place I see the benefit of the AP)

I fly enough hours now to not worry about proficiency (thank god I got back to that state), but not enough to just **** away the fun of flying by having a computer do it for me.

What I don't get is if you're going to use Autopilot....why not just flight sim? Its the exact same thing, except you're less likely to die if you lose an engine in the clag.

 

[SkyHog]

I'd bet the average active CFI will fly the airplane better then the average private aircraft owner. You haven't flown with a lot of the "average" aircraft owners out there Nick. You'd be shocked. The pilots that participate in these communities are generally much better than average.

You've got a lot of owners that are flying around in their airplanes and haven't had any formal training in about 20 years. They get by on whipped flight reviews over the years...and the result is pretty -- interesting.

It was a joke. The correct statement would have been "99% of the CFIs I've flown with," although now I wonder if that's more of a New Mexico thing. My CFI in NH rocked, and my CFIs here in NC have been good too.

 

[jesse]

That's what I don't get....I've flown some complex airplanes (nothing like a jet, mind you, but still). What else is there to flying?

Tuning radios (you can do that without AP just fine)?
Folding Charts (you don't really need to do that with the iPad/Android devices)?
Briefing an approach (sure....but you could also do that while flying....this is, however, about the only place I see the benefit of the AP)

I fly enough hours now to not worry about proficiency (thank god I got back to that state), but not enough to just **** away the fun of flying by having a computer do it for me.

What I don't get is if you're going to use Autopilot....why not just flight sim? Its the exact same thing, except you're less likely to die if you lose an engine in the clag.

Next time you're in Nebraska we'll take the Debonair up - put you under the hood - and I'll get your stress level up. Then we'll turn on the autopilot and we'll see if you understand.

I enjoy just looking at the view when I'm flying. Can't do that in a flight sim. There isn't that much that is "fun" about handling a yoke in an airplane in level cruise flight. But I do think it's fun to look down on the world and take in the beauty.

 

[Skylane81E]

Next time you're in Nebraska we'll take the Debonair up - put you under the hood - and I'll get your stress level up. Then we'll turn on the autopilot and we'll see if you understand.

I enjoy just looking at the view when I'm flying. Can't do that in a flight sim. There isn't that much that is "fun" about handling a yoke in an airplane in level cruise flight. But I do think it's fun to look down on the world and take in the beauty.

QFT, both statements.

Also on long trips the AP keeps the workload down and fatuge at bay

 

[Everskyward]

I'd bet the average active CFI will fly the airplane better then the average private aircraft owner. You haven't flown with a lot of the "average" aircraft owners out there Nick. You'd be shocked. The pilots that participate in these communities are generally much better than average.

You've got a lot of owners that are flying around in their airplanes and haven't had any formal training in about 20 years. They get by on whipped flight reviews over the years...and the result is pretty -- interesting.

This was a big eye-opener to me when I became a CFI. The only pilots I had been exposed to before were other mapping pilots who were all current and very good sticks. I was the newbie among them. Then I got a job as a CFI in a flying club. The most surprising thing were some of the pilots who came for club checkouts. I would sometimes wonder how they had ever passed a private check ride.

 

[Rex Kramer]

That's what I don't get....I've flown some complex airplanes (nothing like a jet, mind you, but still). What else is there to flying?

Tuning radios (you can do that without AP just fine)?
Folding Charts (you don't really need to do that with the iPad/Android devices)?
Briefing an approach (sure....but you could also do that while flying....this is, however, about the only place I see the benefit of the AP)

I fly enough hours now to not worry about proficiency (thank god I got back to that state), but not enough to just **** away the fun of flying by having a computer do it for me.

What I don't get is if you're going to use Autopilot....why not just flight sim? Its the exact same thing, except you're less likely to die if you lose an engine in the clag.

Go fly 14hrs straight to a destination that is at minimums and see how you feel about the autopilot.


An a/p is a great tool and is exceptional at reducing fatigue and workload IF one uses it correctly. It's not a permission slip to take your head out of the most important part of the game (flying the plane), but it will free up your time to do other things.

And depending on the airplane one is talking about, the a/p will outfly a human pilot hand down. I know I can't hold my alt to within 10' and headings within 1-2 deg for hours on end, especially when briefing or folding charts..

 

[SkyHog]

Go fly 14hrs straight to a destination that is at minimums and see how you feel about the autopilot.


An a/p is a great tool and is exceptional at reducing fatigue and workload IF one uses it correctly. It's not a permission slip to take your head out of the most important part of the game (flying the plane), but it will free up your time to do other things.

And depending on the airplane one is talking about, the a/p will outfly a human pilot hand down. I know I can't hold my alt to within 10' and headings within 1-2 deg for hours on end, especially when briefing or folding charts..

But again - you're not flying the plane, the autopilot is.

If you're in a car, with your friend driving while you sleep in the passenger seat, are you driving?

Or more accurately, if you are riding an escalator up, are you climbing stairs?

 

[Skylane81E]

But again - you're not flying the plane, the autopilot is.

If you're in a car, with your friend driving while you sleep in the passenger seat, are you driving?

Or more accurately, if you are riding an escalator up, are you climbing stairs?

I take it you never use cruise control either

 

[Everskyward]

But again - you're not flying the plane, the autopilot is.

You're not physically manipulating the airplane but why does it matter? I you are talking about the fun factor, as Jesse pointed out, is it that entertaining to fly an airplane straight and level in cruise for hours?

 

[SkyHog]

I take it you never use cruise control either

You mean the device that requires me to steer the car and also keep it straight by correcting for road drift?

That's a lot different than a device that does all of that for you so you can sit back and watch the vehicle move

 

[SkyHog]

You're not physically manipulating the airplane but why does it matter? I you are talking about the fun factor, as Jesse pointed out, is it that entertaining to fly an airplane straight and level in cruise for hours?

Yes because even when trimmed you occasionally have to give inputs to continue flying straight and level

 

[Rex Kramer]

You mean the device that requires me to steer the car and also keep it straight by correcting for road drift?

That's a lot different than a device that does all of that for you so you can sit back and watch the vehicle move

I guess there is no real point trying to convince you that an autopilot is an excellent tool to have, but if that's what you think people should be doing when using an autopilot you have a very large misconception about its purpose.




I if it's me or another one of the crewmembers flying, or the autopilot is on, or a student is flying, I am always mentally flying that plane from startup to shutdown.

 

[Everskyward]

That's a lot different than a device that does all of that for you so you can sit back and watch the vehicle move

If you want to look at it that way, even without an autopilot you're not the one who is flying. The airplane is. You're not out there flapping your wings....

 

[RotorAndWing]

If you want to look at it that way, even without an autopilot you're not the one who is flying. The airplane is. You're not out there flapping your wings....

 

[Skylane81E]

You mean the device that requires me to steer the car and also keep it straight by correcting for road drift?

That's a lot different than a device that does all of that for you so you can sit back and watch the vehicle move

No the tool that uses some automation to take SOME (not all) of the work away so that you don't fatigue as fast.

 

[L.Adamson]

I have no experience with the Chelton, but I will say this after completing my recent Human Factors grad ed course - you'd be suprised at what the human brain can tune out under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

My Garmin screams at me too. In an ever increasing tone of "voice". You won't tune it out. It's not bells, sirens, or nonsense. Just a loud and very demanding synthesized voice.

L.Adamson

 

[bbchien]

Sadly, I have to agree with Indigo and Jesse as to the garden variety PVT ASEL .

 

[jesse]

Sadly, I have to agree with Indigo and Jesse as to the garden variety PVT ASEL .

I did a flight review with a guy awhile back -- I noticed he flew IFR everywhere. Even to an airport like 15 miles away.

During the flight review I discovered that he thought the shaded areas on the sectional (where the floor of the class e changes) were instrument only. Had no idea you could fly into these airports without an instrument clearance. He thought that you needed a clearance to go anywhere these days. Hasn't been following aviation much but does fly a few times a month. Has thousands of hours. He has been actively aviating for 45 years.

Plenty of other very interesting things were uncovered as well.

 

[denverpilot]

I have no experience with the Chelton, but I will say this after completing my recent Human Factors grad ed course - you'd be suprised at what the human brain can tune out under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

I have a very good (or bad) ability to do this. Co-workers trying to interrupt me when I'm on a roll on a project on a server or troubleshooting an outage have remarked on it later.

I usually am aware they're babbling about something irrelevant and that's about as far into my conscious thought process they get until later.

I get kinda like this dude...

 

[Everskyward]

Sadly, I have to agree with Indigo and Jesse as to the garden variety PVT ASEL .

I'll add that the pilots I've flown with from POA have been way above the average that I observed as a CFI back then.

 

[gismo]

What I don't get is if you're going to use Autopilot....why not just flight sim? Its the exact same thing, except you're less likely to die if you lose an engine in the clag.

Because when I get out of the sim I'm right where I was when I got in regardless of what the GPS says.

Perhaps what you're having trouble with is that with close to 4000 hrs in my logbook, the experience of keeping an airplane I'm familiar with on course and altitude when flying cross country again is pretty low on my bucket list. And on most X/C flights I spend a lot of time checking weather ahead (and occasionally behind) even when the sun is shining where I'm at. On a trip from MN to FL I'm apt to pass through two or three different weather systems, each with it's own challenges
such as icing up north, TRW down south, and low vis anywhere along the way. Re-routes happen on close to half the trips and that requires some head down time especially if I get two or three intersections I can't even spell. It's certainly possible to do all of that while hand flying but I generally prefer not to. You could fly your whole trip with the trim set so you had to keep some aileron and elevator pressure but it's easier if you trim it out making less work for yourself. Using an autopilot is just an extension of that.

Now put me in an airplane I haven't flown before and if we're not headed for any particular destination I'd love to try some maneuvering. Even if we're just flying S&L I'll gladly taste the control feel for a while but I'm also likely to want to play with all the knobs and buttons too.

 

[n20junkie]

Add that in RVSM airspace you can't hand fly if you wanted too......