HP/Complex endorsement

J

JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
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We sold our 172 and are about to purchase a Bonanza.
My wife will be training for her HP/Complex endorsement. She wants to take the first few hours of training where the plane will be with one CFI. Then she wants to bring the plane to our home-drome and continue her training with a more local CFI. I think she should choose one CFI and stick with him through the training, unless there is a problem.

She doesn't understand my logic and I dont' understand hers, so we need some educated opinions.

Opinions are invited, but please don't ask me why she wants to do this.
 
JOhnH said:
Opinions are invited, but please don't ask me why she wants to do this.
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I won't ask that, but my 36+ years of marriage (all to the same woman) leads me to ask why you want to start a fight with your wife when she's already happy with you spending the money to trade up a couple of classes of aircraft. :confused:
 
For me I did the endorsement with one CFI in 3 hours. I did insurance required training with another CFI. It was not an issue for me. The endorsement is easy. Getting used to properly configure a fast plane takes practice imo :)
 
Let her do whatever she wants! Enjoy the airplane. You are lucky!
 
What Chris said

It's not that much training, a day, two at the max. The HP doesn't really involve any training, just a plane with a big enough engine, the complex isn't that hard to wrap your head around, just think of the prop as a manual transmission. Id say anyone who might have any business in a Bo should be able to get it down in a good day worth of flying, keeping a nice short & simple checklist handy after.

She should learn in the plane she will be flying, and it isn't enough training to warrant 2 CFIs.
 
This is a few hours of instruction, in a plane you'll own and be paying for the gas in anyway. So at worst, you're looking at a few hundred bucks of "unnecessary" instruction. Definitely not worth arguing about.
 
Not worth arguing about. Makes sence to get trained in the airplane your going to fly. Happy wife ,happy life
 
JOhnH said:
We sold our 172 and are about to purchase a Bonanza.
My wife will be training for her HP/Complex endorsement. She wants to take the first few hours of training where the plane will be with one CFI. Then she wants to bring the plane to our home-drome and continue her training with a more local CFI. I think she should choose one CFI and stick with him through the training, unless there is a problem.

She doesn't understand my logic and I dont' understand hers, so we need some educated opinions.

Opinions are invited, but please don't ask me why she wants to do this.
Click to expand...

No need to understand her logic. Either way will be fine, in fact, two instructors lessens the chance something important may get missed. If that's the way she wants to go about it, it seems practical to me if the plane isn't 'local'. Either she does an hour or so to check out in the plane (not particularly difficult, it's easier to fly well than a 172 and she flies a 172 well) and get her endorsement and whatever she needs for confidence and insurance and come home. Otherwise there are extended 'away' periods, or you hire someone to bring the plane home for you.
 
Anyone transitioning to a Bonanza should get instruction from a CFI that is an expert in the type. That can be a local CFI or one from a distance. The ABS has standardized instructor training in their BPPP program. Pretty much any BPPP instructor will know what needs to be covered. The same is true for a BPT instructor pilot. I spend a fair amount of time educating Bonanza pilots of the capabilities of their aircraft that they are totally unaware of because they used a CFI that had little or no knowledge of the type.
 
John Collins said:
Anyone transitioning to a Bonanza should get instruction from a CFI that is an expert in the type. That can be a local CFI or one from a distance. The ABS has standardized instructor training in their BPPP program. Pretty much any BPPP instructor will know what needs to be covered. The same is true for a BPT instructor pilot. I spend a fair amount of time educating Bonanza pilots of the capabilities of their aircraft that they are totally unaware of because they used a CFI that had little or no knowledge of the type.
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Do you think a Bo needs a special instructor following a special BPPP Program?

I really didnt find the plane that much different from any other low wing complex, Id wager anyone who has flown a complex piston could probably read the POH and shelf check out in a Bo with little effort.
 
James331 said:
Do you think a Bo needs a special instructor following a special BPPP Program?

I really didnt find the plane that much different from any other low wing complex, Id wager anyone who has flown a complex piston could probably read the POH and shelf check out in a Bo with little effort.
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Yep, the thing most new Bo drivers do wrong is the same thing most new Mooney drivers do wrong, they think they need to carry a bunch of extra energy into the landing.
 
James331 said:
Do you think a Bo needs a special instructor following a special BPPP Program?

I really didnt find the plane that much different from any other low wing complex, Id wager anyone who has flown a complex piston could probably read the POH and shelf check out in a Bo with little effort.
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If the pilot goes thru a BPPP program, they will get 4 or 5 hours of very type specific instruction. In my experience, a C172 pilot typically needs more time to adjust to the differences. Most take at least 10 hours to get a modicum of comfort. Some insurance companies require up to 25 hours of transition training. As you indicated, the airplane is not particularly difficult to fly, but I seriously doubt that a self checkout will result in the pilot having a good grasp of systems, emergency procedures, short field handling characteristics, etc. I took this route myself when I bought my V35A more than 35 years ago. I did not have a clue about how to best operate the airplane until at least 10 years later when I did get some type specific training. I would have been better off to have obtained the type specific training when i originally purchased the airplane.
 
you are buying a Bonanza and want to know why your wife is not making sense? :lol:


a happy wife.....is a happy life. :yes:
 
Ron Levy said:
I won't ask that, but my 36+ years of marriage (all to the same woman) leads me to ask why you want to start a fight with your wife when she's already happy with you spending the money to trade up a couple of classes of aircraft. :confused:
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I agree. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. :lol:
 
John Collins said:
If the pilot goes thru a BPPP program...
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The Beechcraft Pilot Proficiency Program...Program?

Remind me to stop by the ATM machine on my way to work...

Hope the ILS system is operating when we land...
:rofl::D
 
You got it, Gucci! 'Cepting around here, we call them "ATM machines" at the bank "money holes" which eliminates any repetitive redundancy or confusion. You know, cause the money all comes out that little hole on the front of the machine?

The HP and Complex endorsements should only require a few flights. Then bring the plane home and work on insurance dual with whatever CFI she is comfortable with. I am guessing that you have already figured out how to share the left seat and PIC time. My wife is just happy to ride along wherever the plane goes, and suggests destinations, too.

The big difference that she will notice is that things happen much faster than in a Skyhawk, and the speed will run away from her quickly if she lets it. Speed control is important! Learn how to slow down . . . there are no brakes in the air . . .

Having a good GUMPS check will help with complex--I drop gear on downwind, check the lights on final, and on short final I double check the mechanical indicator on the floor (which can only be wrong if something breaks).

Congratulations and hope both of you enjoy the new plane!
 
Gucci Pilot said:
The Beechcraft Pilot Proficiency Program...Program?

Remind me to stop by the ATM machine on my way to work...

Hope the ILS system is operating when we land...
:rofl::D
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Meh.....the BPPP is nice. I don't think it's a requirement.....I did ok without it. Honestly, the plane is one of the easiest to fly.....the biggest issue I had was the vertical speed management.

Maybe the pre V35 vintages might have some buttonolgy quirks that a BPPP pro could help out with....? :dunno:
 
I like flying with different instructor pilots. Each has different strengths and priorities. In this case you aren't a student pilot so the training is advanced. Why not use a couple and gleen what they have to offer?
 
Arguing with someone about what they think is best for their own transition training? On an issue in which there is no "right" and "wrong" choice? And with a spouse? And asking for support to win the argument?

Really?
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Meh.....the BPPP is nice. I don't think it's a requirement.....I did ok without it. Honestly, the plane is one of the easiest to fly.....the biggest issue I had was the vertical speed management.

Maybe the pre V35 vintages might have some buttonolgy quirks that a BPPP pro could help out with....? :dunno:
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BPPP or BPT are not requirements, but you will learn a lot about flying your airplane you never knew. Stop by in the Charlotte area and I will show you what your Bonanza will do.
 
John Collins said:
BPPP or BPT are not requirements, but you will learn a lot about flying your airplane you never knew.
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Type-specific programs with type-expert instructors will teach you a lot about your airplane, period, not just about flying it. The operating, ownership, and maintenance information contained in programs like the ABS's BPPP or the AYA's PFP goes far beyond just the piloting skills of getting the plane into the air and back on the ground again.
 
John Collins said:
BPPP or BPT are not requirements, but you will learn a lot about flying your airplane you never knew. Stop by in the Charlotte area and I will show you what your Bonanza will do.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that offer John....I wish I were closer. I'm sure there's more to learn.:yes:

Over the last two years of annuals.....I've learned lots...some the hard way.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Arguing with someone about what they think is best for their own transition training? On an issue in which there is no "right" and "wrong" choice? And with a spouse? And asking for support to win the argument?

Really?
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There are a lot of good answers and suggestions on this thread. I have already learned a good bit about transitioning to a Bonanza.

But I chose to reply to this one for one reason:
I wasn't asking for support to win the argument. I was asking for opinions, pro and con, so that I could help her make a better decision. She is the one that suggested I post the question here.

I already told her (last night), that most people said this doesn't make much difference, and she should do whatever she feels most comfortable with, as long as we try to get a CFI with plenty of Bonanza experience, at least initially.
 
The BPPP has a good group of instructors. Use one where the plane is, then use another one near your home base. Like Ron said, they will teach you a lot of Bo specific stuff, not just the prop handle, and the gear switch. The Bo is a joy to fly, but there are a few quirks that make it different from brand P and brand C complex.

Maybe get a 10 hour BPPP gift certificate for her, and let her chose whatever works.
 
Ron Levy said:
Type-specific programs with type-expert instructors will teach you a lot about your airplane, period, not just about flying it. The operating, ownership, and maintenance information contained in programs like the ABS's BPPP or the AYA's PFP goes far beyond just the piloting skills of getting the plane into the air and back on the ground again.
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I've seen plenty of Bo owners who never turn a screwdriver on their plane, let along a wrench, just bought it and paid whatever the APs told them to.

What is soo specific on the Bo that the average EXPERIENCED CFI wouldn't understand?
 
James331 said:
What is soo specific on the Bo that the average EXPERIENCED CFI wouldn't understand?
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Where to apply the magic pixie dust to get the optimal experience ;) .
 
James331 said:
I've seen plenty of Bo owners who never turn a screwdriver on their plane, let along a wrench, just bought it and paid whatever the APs told them to.

What is soo specific on the Bo that the average EXPERIENCED CFI wouldn't understand?
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Some simple ones, how to establish the power off glide. How far can you glide, what is the sight picture. Best technique for short field landings and takeoff. Spiral tendency demonstration and recovery. Stall differences based on configuration. Emergency descent procedure. Fuel management (particularly on the older Bonanzas). Door popping open on rotation. What to check for on pre-flight. How to visually check the fuel supply in the tank. Climb performance as a function of IAS. Go around procedure (please don't use the POH Vy).

I do a special session with instructors in clubs that operate Bonanzas so they will be aware of the things not covered in the POH.
 
James331 said:
I've seen plenty of Bo owners who never turn a screwdriver on their plane, let along a wrench, just bought it and paid whatever the APs told them to.

What is soo specific on the Bo that the average EXPERIENCED CFI wouldn't understand?
Click to expand...

The one important thing that sticks out to me is the emer or manual gear extension on the Bo. Any CFI can grab the POH, turn to the right page, and read what's printed there. A BPPP instructor will give you the three tricks to make it work right without going into a right turn graveyard spiral while you fight with the gear handle. Any endorsement for a complex plane will require a manual gear extension, and auto retraction.

I believe, but don't mind being corrected that in some other mfg, you pull a pin or handle and the gear 'falls' into down position. Such is not at all the case with the Bo. People have died from doing the emer gear extension wrong.

While I'm on a roll, I just thought of another interesting tidbit. On older Bos, the emer fuel pumping is -- shall we say, primitive? There are a few tricks to making that work and still flying the plane as well. Again, anyone who can read will be able to open the POH, find the page, read the instructions(all the while descending in a power off dive) and get it running again. While not complex/HP specific, this is something that BPPP value will show the student.

It also seems that BPPP instructors are about the same price, or maybe slightly higher than any other CFI, so why would one avoid the better instruction all other things being equal? I guess you could get a 100 hour wonder kid whose never seen a V tail to get the endorsement and pay him $25/hour. Meh - get what you pay for in life is true in GA as well.
 
Congratulations your the recent Bonanza purchase......:yes:
 
midlifeflyer said:
Arguing with someone about what they think is best for their own transition training? On an issue in which there is no "right" and "wrong" choice? And with a spouse? And asking for support to win the argument?

Really?
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He's hoping one of you will side with him, and he'll throw you under the bus instead of himself. Pretty smart IMO.
 
I just finished my complex endorsement yesterday. Took 2.4 hours. Sounds like she'll get that from the first CFI easily. I don't see any reason to argue over it, cause it's not a big deal. If it were primary training I'd say you wanna stay with one CFI, but just for getting used to a new plane IMHO it's more about having someone there to sit in the right seat and do basically nothing UNLESS you screw up. Any good CFI can be your training wheels when you already know how to fly a plane.

And before the onslaught comes, yes I know they are doing more than sitting there doing nothing.
 
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docmirror said:
The one important thing that sticks out to me is the emer or manual gear extension on the Bo. Any CFI can grab the POH, turn to the right page, and read what's printed there. A BPPP instructor will give you the three tricks to make it work right without going into a right turn graveyard spiral while you fight with the gear handle. Any endorsement for a complex plane will require a manual gear extension, and auto retraction.

I believe, but don't mind being corrected that in some other mfg, you pull a pin or handle and the gear 'falls' into down position. Such is not at all the case with the Bo. People have died from doing the emer gear extension wrong.

While I'm on a roll, I just thought of another interesting tidbit. On older Bos, the emer fuel pumping is -- shall we say, primitive? There are a few tricks to making that work and still flying the plane as well. Again, anyone who can read will be able to open the POH, find the page, read the instructions(all the while descending in a power off dive) and get it running again. While not complex/HP specific, this is something that BPPP value will show the student.

It also seems that BPPP instructors are about the same price, or maybe slightly higher than any other CFI, so why would one avoid the better instruction all other things being equal? I guess you could get a 100 hour wonder kid whose never seen a V tail to get the endorsement and pay him $25/hour. Meh - get what you pay for in life is true in GA as well.
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Is there something in the POH about entering a high speed spiral if anything goes wrong on the plane??

This spiral problem sounds more like a fundimental airmanship/priority issue than anything Bo specific :dunno:

Again, any experienced CFI should be able to do this, a high time working pilot who CFIs on the side should have no problem with this.

You don't need a magic Guru, its a Bo not the space shuttle.

As for the other stuff about best glide and everything, I didn't read anything that couldn't also just be applied to a Pa24/Mooney/etc
 
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Now you're just giving yourself a reach-around. Get the $25/hour noob and be done with it.

Whatev.
 
James331 said:
Is there something in the POH about entering a high speed spiral if anything goes wrong on the plane??

This spiral problem sounds more like a fundimental airmanship/priority issue than anything Bo specific :dunno:

Again, any experienced CFI should be able to do this, a high time working pilot who CFIs on the side should have no problem with this.

You don't need a magic Guru, its a Bo not the space shuttle.

As for the other stuff about best glide and everything, I didn't read anything that couldn't also just be applied to a Pa24/Mooney/etc
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There is nothing in the POH about the spiral characteristics, so I doubt a CFI not familiar with the type would think it requires any special attention.

So what would you or your high time CFI advise the new Bonanza pilot on this topic?

If you don't like this topic, pick another one from the ones I listed. There are more if you don't like my list.

Under most normal conditions, a Bonanza is one of the sweetest and easiest flying machines out there. But as with all types, type specific knowledge is not found in generic training. Heck, if it weren't for insurance company requirements, anyone who has a complex and a high performance endorsement or like myself who is grandfathered, is permitted by the FAA to get in and go. As long as everything goes as expected, there should be no issue at all.

So you are in flight and lower the gear, but it does not indicate it is down, how can you tell in a low flyby if the gear is down and locked? What is the purpose of the spring in the main gear wheel wells and is it important to check before flight? If you have to lower the landing gear manually, what are some of the important points and describe a good technique for accomplishing this task? What does the alternate air door pull knob do and when do you use it? You can barely see a little fuel at the bottom of both tanks, is it safe to take the airplane to an airport 20 NM away that is open, VFR and has gas? What pre-flight checks do you inspect on the control surfaces, particularly after maintenance or painting? Where is the anti-siphon valve located for each tank and how do you check it? What will happen if it fails? How should the fuel vent tubes be oriented, and why is this important?

All the above is type specific knowledge that a flight instructor not familiar with the Bonanza will not be able to answer. Of course there are more topics. As is true with all complex airplanes, time in type and type specific training is a key parameter in insurance. In Europe, there are mandated differences training for certain aircraft. Here in the US, the type clubs promote type specific training with ABS taking the lead. Cirrus has a strong CIP program as well and again most insurance companies require training by a CIP.
 
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