How would you add a turbonormalizer to an O-320 in EXP plane?

[docmirror]

I have a need to fly a plane out of 7-9000' elevation and would like more power to take off. The engine is a bone stock O-320_B3A with 8.5:1 C/R. I don't want to add more MP at sea level, but would like to have more ponies at high alt and temps.

I was thinking of using a turbo off an IO-360 and just derate it a bit. Or, I could go with a turbo off a Rotax 914, or I could just go with something from the auto realm about 300 cu in and derate that for 2700RPM.

Any ideas?

 

[txflyer]

How much if you can even do it? Would it be less than $10 grand? Forced Aeromotive has a supercharger kit ... I've read good things about super normalizing over turbo.

Have you checked this out? It's for a 0-360, but it might work on the 320?

 

[Henning]

Yeah, you can get a turbo off an IO-360 and find a manual waste gate, then plumb it to a plenum box that goes on the intake side of the carb. You lumb the turbo input to the bottom of the box and have a flap with a seal on the circumferance over it that's hinged so when you bring the turbo online it blocks off the fresh air intake from the primary inlet filter. You can put a Y in that and stick a piece of SCAT to the compressor inlet or you can just put a K&N on the turbo. Riley may sell you a waste gate, check and see if they are still out in Palomar, KCRQ, they may have the plenum box as well.

 

[Henning]

How much if you can even do it? Would it be less than $10 grand? Forced Aeromotive has a supercharger kit ... I've read good things about super normalizing over turbo.

Have you checked this out? It's for a 0-360, but it might work on the 320?

If he's handy enough to build a plane, he can do it for <$2k.

 

[Henning]

Oh, I forgot the scavenge pump, you'll need a scavenge pump on the oil return side unless you are putting the turbo on top of the engine. They typically fit as an intermediary under the vacuum pump. If you don't put a check valve in that line, you will have oil drip out of your turbo after shut down.

 

[txflyer]

If he's handy enough to build a plane, he can do it for <$2k.

Then it's a no brainer .. my bad. Forget the supercharger.

 

[Henning]

Then it's a no brainer .. my bad. Forget the supercharger.

The trick with doing a supercharger on a Lycoming is the belt, there's no belt drive on the back, just off the flywheel up front. It can be done, but there's a bit of machine work involved where as with a turbo, you can get all the parts out of a junkyard from one of the many Riley conversions.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Is that going to make useable horsepower without redlining the fixed-pitch prop? (Or does the -B3A have a constant-speed?) At altitude the reduced air density reduces power but also the load on the propeller, so the RPM stays roughly the same as at sea level.

Dan

 

[pigpenracing]

I built this turbo kit for my bike. I bet I could hang one from a airplane. Should run good with a 106MM and 40 pounds of boost
I can put nitrous on it to make it spool up. LOL!
I put one on my Mustang to
Here are some pics, fly it over if you want me to run some pipe.....

 

[docmirror]

A) I didn't build the EXP, but I do have plenty of mech knowhow.

B') Don't want a belt drive. Only using the turbo when I'm at alt, so I don't want to drag the engine all the time.

C) I'll make it a draw through cause it's easy and faster. I think if I run the oiler line out of the pressure side, then up above the baffle, I can run it down to the turbo without a valve. Also, the return like would go on in above the oil level line.

D) I was hoping to get an aneroid wastegate which controls the boost automatically so I don't have to futz with it on TO. If not, I can do a manual gate, and maybe use a BO valve, but that dumps mixed fuel air, so would like to avoid that.

 

[docmirror]

One more thing, I've got a PS-5C pressure carb sitting around collecting dust. This seems like a perfect carb/injector to put on the front of the turbo sideways so I can get some ram air. It doesn't care about intake pressure as it forces the fuel in under pressure.

 

[Henning]

A) I didn't build the EXP, but I do have plenty of mech knowhow.

B') Don't want a belt drive. Only using the turbo when I'm at alt, so I don't want to drag the engine all the time.

C) I'll make it a draw through cause it's easy and faster. I think if I run the oiler line out of the pressure side, then up above the baffle, I can run it down to the turbo without a valve. Also, the return like would go on in above the oil level line.

D) I was hoping to get an aneroid wastegate which controls the boost automatically so I don't have to futz with it on TO. If not, I can do a manual gate, and maybe use a BO valve, but that dumps mixed fuel air, so would like to avoid that.

Well, is it B or C? You can't have a draw through and only use the turbo at altitude. You can vary the speed on the turbo with a waste gate, but you're always gonna have to keep it spinning. The nice thing about the plenum box system is if the turbo goes T/U, the engine still runs as naturally aspirated.

 

[docmirror]

Well, is it B or C? You can't have a draw through and only use the turbo at altitude. You can vary the speed on the turbo with a waste gate, but you're always gonna have to keep it spinning. The nice thing about the plenum box system is if the turbo goes T/U, the engine still runs as naturally aspirated.

Huh? Why not? Draw through works fine with an aneroid wastegate, autos use it all the time. Although it is good to use a plenum in case the turbo grenades. I'm planning to go full throttle at alt for takeoff as well. That will give me as much as I'm gonna get in terms of pressure with a PS-5C as well.

 

[Henning]

Huh? Why not? Draw through works fine with an aneroid wastegate, autos use it all the time. Although it is good to use a plenum in case the turbo grenades.

Sure, they use them, but the turbo is always working, you said you only want it online at altitude. BTW, anymore all the engines are FI squirting the fuel at the intake port, all the turbo flows is air.

 

[docmirror]

i built a plenum box turbo for a dune buggy a while back, and it was no end of hassles. The alternative is to pressurize the carb body and a var pressure fuel reg. That's a lot of hassle too, but it might work better at alt if I have a big enough compressor. I assume getting a turbo off an IO-360 would provide plenty of air on the comp side.

 

[docmirror]

Is that going to make useable horsepower without redlining the fixed-pitch prop? (Or does the -B3A have a constant-speed?) At altitude the reduced air density reduces power but also the load on the propeller, so the RPM stays roughly the same as at sea level.

Dan

Yeah, this is gonna be a bit tricky. Since the air is thinner at alt, the prop could overspeed if I get funky with the throttle. It's going to require a gentle action at alt. It is a fixed pitch prop. One of those tuning things that I'll need to think on. I don't want to add a var prop either.

 

[Henning]

i built a plenum box turbo for a dune buggy a while back, and it was no end of hassles. The alternative is to pressurize the carb body and a var pressure fuel reg. That's a lot of hassle too, but it might work better at alt if I have a big enough compressor. I assume getting a turbo off an IO-360 would provide plenty of air on the comp side.

My O360s on my Travelair were TNd this way blowing through the carb on normal fuel pressure (remember you're only making up lost pressure, not boosting) with the same turbo of the Cont TSIO-360. Took me to 33,100'.

 

[docmirror]

My O360s on my Travelair were TNd this way with the same turbo of the Cont TSIO-360. Took me to 33,100'.

So, as I understand this, the turbo is blow through, and the carb is in a sealed box. There is a pressure fitting on the box that controls the wastegate(aneroid in my case) to limit boost. You can use any stock carb, including a float type, and there is an adj pressure fuel reg from the pump to match the fuel differential reaching the float bowl.

Do I have that about right?

 

[Henning]

So, as I understand this, the turbo is blow through, and the carb is in a sealed box. There is a pressure fitting on the box that controls the wastegate(aneroid in my case) to limit boost. You can use any stock carb, including a float type, and there is an adj pressure fuel reg from the pump to match the fuel differential reaching the float bowl.

Do I have that about right?

No, the box is below the carb same as the box you likely have now that has the SCAT from the air filter. The design of your carb does not require it to have the housing pressurized. If you want an aneroid waste gate you can plumb the pressure sensor wherever you please down stream, but typically you would pick it up downstream of the throttle plate, a carb temp probe plate would be fine. You'll still need a manual block for the waste gate to take it off line.

 

[Geico266]

Up grade the pistons and cylinders and be done with it. You are asking for mucho trouble and expense.

Or live with what you got. Learn to fly it within the parameters of the power plant and prop you have. We all went more power.

Jmho.

 

[docmirror]

No, the box is below the carb same as the box you likely have now that has the SCAT from the air filter. The design of your carb does not require it to have the housing pressurized. If you want an aneroid waste gate you can plumb the pressure sensor wherever you please down stream, but typically you would pick it up downstream of the throttle plate, a carb temp probe plate would be fine. You'll still need a manual block for the waste gate to take it off line.

OK, In an auto system, the carb won't allow this, it'll leak air everywhere. I guess aircraft carbs can do it. I could do it with the PS-5C too cause it's a sealed unit. I get the override for the dump in case I want to bypass using the manual. That's an easy plumb. I still see a need for an adj fuel pressure reg or when it goes +5PSI at alt, the fuel won't flow into the carb. Will need an extra push from the regulator.

 

[Neal Howard]

Solid rocket RATO boosters

 

[JHW]

no need ro reinvent the wheel. Look for a junkyard turbo twin comanche. That's a turbocharged IO-320 with manual wastegate.

 

[docmirror]

no need ro reinvent the wheel. Look for a junkyard turbo twin comanche. That's a turbocharged IO-320 with manual wastegate.

I'll shop around. Not sure how many were made, and how many are in the bone yard. But, it's a good idea, I'm all for going with what works already. Thanks.

 

[JHW]

I'll shop around. Not sure how many were made, and how many are in the bone yard. But, it's a good idea, I'm all for going with what works already. Thanks.

if nothing else, troll around the comanche forums and get someone to send you a scan of the STC, then you'll have a shopping list of a configuration that's known to work

 

[docmirror]

if nothing else, troll around the comanche forums and get someone to send you a scan of the STC, then you'll have a shopping list of a configuration that's known to work

I believe the only turbonorm on the Comanche is the IO-470 engine. FI makes a diff, but sure could get started with that.

 

[JHW]

I believe the only turbonorm on the Comanche is the IO-470 engine. FI makes a diff, but sure could get started with that.

not likely. there has never been a continental powered comanche single or twin

 

[Henning]

OK, In an auto system, the carb won't allow this, it'll leak air everywhere. I guess aircraft carbs can do it. I could do it with the PS-5C too cause it's a sealed unit. I get the override for the dump in case I want to bypass using the manual. That's an easy plumb. I still see a need for an adj fuel pressure reg or when it goes +5PSI at alt, the fuel won't flow into the carb. Will need an extra push from the regulator.

No, the fuel pump is pushing the same pressure at altitude as it is at the surface, just like the turbo will be pushing the same atmospheric pressure at altitude as the engine sees at the surface.

 

[Henning]

no need ro reinvent the wheel. Look for a junkyard turbo twin comanche. That's a turbocharged IO-320 with manual wastegate.

Yep, has everything but the plenum box, and uses the same turbo, but he wants an aneroid controlled waste gate.

 

[Henning]

I believe the only turbonorm on the Comanche is the IO-470 engine. FI makes a diff, but sure could get started with that.

Nope, there were turbo Twinkies with 320s and the Comanche never had a 470, they had 540s that used 2 of the same turbos we're talking about, also with a manual waste gate.

 

[Henning]

if nothing else, troll around the comanche forums and get someone to send you a scan of the STC, then you'll have a shopping list of a configuration that's known to work

Except his isn't FI, so he needs to fabricate the box to charge the carb.

 

[docmirror]

not likely. there has never been a continental powered comanche single or twin

Ok, it's still a lot bigger than a 320. In fact it's going the wrong way. I'm gonna search around for a PA-39 setup and see what I can find. If not the bits, at least the design and the trim for the turbo. Getting the right trim for the turbo is always a hassle unless someone has already set it up.

 

[Henning]

Ok, it's still a lot bigger than a 320. In fact it's going the wrong way. I'm gonna search around for a PA-39 setup and see what I can find. If not the bits, at least the design and the trim for the turbo. Getting the right trim for the turbo is always a hassle unless someone has already set it up.

Nope, same turbo, they just use 2 of them on the 540.

 

[docmirror]

No, the fuel pump is pushing the same pressure at altitude as it is at the surface, just like the turbo will be pushing the same atmospheric pressure at altitude as the engine sees at the surface.

Right but the carb body will be at atmospheric, and the carb throat will be a pressurized differential. With no rising rate fuel pump, the main jet won't pull fuel in. That's what I had to do on my carb box cause when I pressurized the carb(whole thing) the fuel pressure stayed the same, and wasn't providing enough fuel for the engine.

At 10k feet the differential pressure is gonna be ~4PSI between the carb throat under pressure, and the body and fuel pump. If you want to see it in action, the old Studebaker Avanti fuel pump has a fitting on the high side of the diaphram from the supercharger to raise the fuel pressure rate. Same applies here, it's just that the turbo will provide sea level(14.7PSI), and the carb body will be at -4PSI(10.7) at 10k'. Pump is going to provide enough pressure to equalize in the float, but not enough to draw into the venturi.

 

[docmirror]

Nope, same turbo, they just use 2 of them on the 540.

Must be a different trim on the comp wheel.

 

[Henning]

Right but the carb body will be at atmospheric, and the carb throat will be a pressurized differential. With no rising rate fuel pump, the main jet won't pull fuel in. That's what I had to do on my carb box cause when I pressurized the carb(whole thing) the fuel pressure stayed the same, and wasn't providing enough fuel for the engine.

At 10k feet the differential pressure is gonna be ~4PSI between the carb throat under pressure, and the body and fuel pump. If you want to see it in action, the old Studebaker Avanti fuel pump has a fitting on the high side of the diaphram from the supercharger to raise the fuel pressure rate. Same applies here, it's just that the turbo will provide sea level(14.7PSI), and the carb body will be at -4PSI(10.7) at 10k'. Pump is going to provide enough pressure to equalize in the float, but not enough to draw into the venturi.

The vent for the carb is in the throat and pressurized with the turbo to normal atmospheric pressure. There was no mod on my fuel system.

 

[Henning]

Must be a different trim on the comp wheel.

Same RayJay part number IIRC. They were an aftermarket setup that Piper installed from the factory, I believe Jack Riley did it. Ask Tony Scarpelli, he's got it on his Comanche with a carb, see if you can get the part number from him.

 

[docmirror]

The vent for the carb is in the throat and pressurized with the turbo to normal atmospheric pressure. There was no mod on my fuel system.

Ah, so the top air chamber of the float will be pressurized along with the intake mani and the throat of the carb. That would put the carb delivery system at the same elevated pressure. As long as the carb float would withstand the higher relative pressure at sea level, it would be fine then. I recall that may be how they did it in the Avanti too. But I"m sure they used a rising rate line to the fuel pump. There was a small nipple off the Paxton at the output neck that goes down to the top of the fuel pump. Maybe the aero fuel pump will put out enough to overcome it. The max pressure on the Avanti was only 6.5PSI with a 7 limit.

Making more sense, and seems like it is the easier method that aviation would use, rather than a draw through, although draw through has advantages. But, if the turbine wheel asplodes, it's gonna be way down on power having to suck the comp wheel around.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, I never much liked the draw through systems although the primary disadvantage, turbo lag, wouldn't be too bad on a plane. On the go fast boats though we had to use nitrous to overcome it or it was a ***** to get it up on the step.that's why all the Gale Banks systems put the carb in a box and left it on the engine.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

My Rajay StC included upgrading to fuel injection.

Same RayJay part number IIRC. They were an aftermarket setup that Piper installed from the factory, I believe Jack Riley did it. Ask Tony Scarpelli, he's got it on his Comanche with a carb, see if you can get the part number from him.