How to torture your students

steingar said:
It is a bit of an art. Difficulties are good in training, so long as they don't overwhelm the student. It takes good judgement on the part of an instructor to know the difference between a desirable difficulty that challenges a student and and an undesirable one that teaches nothing and causes the student to suffer. The latter category can include a trick question or one too difficult for someone at the student's level of understanding.
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Certainly -- though sometimes students need to be overwhelmed to learn where they aren't.

I'm sure we've all been to the point in training or for real where that "uh oh" feeling hit.

If you've been stressed realistically in training, you will likely fall back on that training.

As have many on this board, I've trained some serious stuff outside of aviation -- infantry, armor, firefighting, det cord explosives -- the rest. Sure, there were times of levity, but for the most part, seriousness was prized over jocularity, since there was so much at stake.

That was always tough for me, as I'm wired towards the lighter side, but understood that there are times were what you learn now will save you and others later.

That said, it takes a deft hand to know how and when to turn it off and turn it on, and every student-instructor combination and situation is unique.

My style isn't "mooing" -- I happen to think it's dumb, but that's just me. I never said it was "wrong" or "unacceptable."
 
dmccormack said:
Certainly -- though sometimes students need to be overwhelmed to learn where they aren't.
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Though I have not trained or been trained in life and death situations outside of aviation, I find this very hard to believe. The way one trains for an emergency is to quickly realize the danger and intuitively step back on a set of learned behaviors. Being overwhelmed has little to do with it. Frequent repetition and recurring training seem like far better alternatives.
 
steingar said:
Though I have not trained or been trained in life and death situations outside of aviation, I find this very hard to believe. The way one trains for an emergency is to quickly realize the danger and intuitively step back on a set of learned behaviors. Being overwhelmed has little to do with it. Frequent repetition and recurring training seem like far better alternatives.
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I agree with you.

My point is about the student that thinks he/she is far more proficient than is actually the case.

I was one of those for a bit as a Student Pilot -- was greasing crosswind landings in a Cherokee and feeling oh so smug -- CFI requested the other runway next time around.

Lesson learned.

Sometimes we need to learn our current limits, and that's better suited to a training situation.
 
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An example my chief CFI used during our ground lesson yesterday for the overconfident student with poor rudder skills was to have him demonstrate a stall during a climbing right turn. Having the airplane snap over is an attention-getter. Like any negative reinforcement during training, there are specific situations where it's value exceeds the bad effects on the student's motivation.
 
TMetzinger said:
An example my chief CFI used during our ground lesson yesterday for the overconfident student with poor rudder skills was to have him demonstrate a stall during a climbing right turn. Having the airplane snap over is an attention-getter. Like any negative reinforcement during training, there are specific situations where it's value exceeds the bad effects on the student's motivation.
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Exactly right -- few things will cure a pilot of "turning" with rudder after an overshot base to final turn than a demo at altitude.
 
I had my first foray into Class C last night (I fly at a nontowered field). I couldn't agree more. The hardest task for me was staying tuned in to the radio so I didn't miss anything. That game would have been good practice. Now if my instructor had asked me to moo, I probably would've slapped him. But we know each other pretty well by now and he'd never ask that of me.

As for the folks suggesting that time would be better spent working on SA, etc., my only comment is that my instructor wouldn't be taking me into Class C if he thought my SA was weak.

FlyNE said:
I don't disagree. It certainly isn't a Marvel Mystery Oil. It's just a tool to help the instructor turn up the heat a bit in the cockpit. If I were the student, I'd be taking it as a good sign. The instructor thinks I'm too far ahead of the airplane. Substitute "say foxtrot" for mooing and "say plus two equals four" for beeping and you make it less game like. Maybe that would be more palatable for those that didn't like the "game". Either way, there is value in having the pressure turned up every time you hear the radio crackle. Like you said, much of the time I don't even know it's there unless I hear my tail number.
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dmccormack said:
I'm sure there are some folks raised on Barney that are ok with this, but IMHO the IR is the serious rating -- you have fun after you get it. :rolleyes:
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I'm a little old for Barney (I was brought up on Sky King, Howdy Doody and the Mousketeers -- all in b&w), but I've learned that if you can inject some fun into IR training, the trainee learns better. Consider it a Law of Effect issue. Of course, if the trainee doesn't find this fun, then the Law of Effect also says to find another way to accomplish the objective of maintaining situational awareness on the freq. But I must say that I've had some trainees who'd probably think this hilarious -- so save the idea for when you fly with one; I will.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I'm a little old for Barney (I was brought up on Sky King, Howdy Doody and the Mousketeers -- all in b&w), but I've learned that if you can inject some fun into IR training, the trainee learns better. Consider it a Law of Effect issue. Of course, if the trainee doesn't find this fun, then the Law of Effect also says to find another way to accomplish the objective of maintaining situational awareness on the freq. But I must say that I've had some trainees who'd probably think this hilarious -- so save the idea for when you fly with one; I will.
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+1

I'm not into mooing -- but some people would be. I can see some value in this.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm a little old for Barney (I was brought up on Sky King, Howdy Doody and the Mousketeers -- all in b&w), but I've learned that if you can inject some fun into IR training, the trainee learns better. Consider it a Law of Effect issue. Of course, if the trainee doesn't find this fun, then the Law of Effect also says to find another way to accomplish the objective of maintaining situational awareness on the freq. But I must say that I've had some trainees who'd probably think this hilarious -- so save the idea for when you fly with one; I will.
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I haven't had one yet... so the mooing will collect dust until required.

:)
 
Quote: "Try some 36's. Your 34's appear to be a bit tight "

My pants are fitting perfectly fine, thanks for asking!
 
No where does it say that the CFI was doing this on every mission. Perhaps it was an attempt to lighten up the stress level for the student, who may start narrowing his focus when the workload gets high. I don't think it is for everyone, nor do I think it is an "every lesson" type of tool, just a novel approach to learning to listen for information while performing the tasks necessary in the IFR environment. Are there other ways? Yes. Are they as humorous, and tension relieving? Hard to say. I actually can see the learning possibilities in this. Not frequently, though.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I'm going by 35 years of experience, 28 of those as a CFII and also as a 135 check airman and also a sim instructor as well as a Part 121 Captain. Sorry I don't see the value of playing silly games as "teaching". :nonod:
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Ah, there they are. The credentials. There is no point in the rest of us stating our opinions. We'll just ask you from here on out. :)
 
TMetzinger said:
An example my chief CFI used during our ground lesson yesterday for the overconfident student with poor rudder skills was to have him demonstrate a stall during a climbing right turn. Having the airplane snap over is an attention-getter. Like any negative reinforcement during training, there are specific situations where it's value exceeds the bad effects on the student's motivation.
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I have described to some of you, my multi candidate. By all rights he's ready to sign off.

But he can NEVER get the first OEI of the day right. He's not paying attention.

One AM, maybe he will. Last time out I did a quiet engine kill 3 nm from the OM at low power. He didn't know it for two minutes. Missed the EGT scan entirely.

At the OM I said, "we need to go around".
He replied, "why? It's working so well".
"Go around". Throttles came up.
YOWSE!

I sure am glad I didn't wait until the MAP. This is not a silly game. This is called, "take the damned battery out of your Blackberry, we're talking serious survival here".

Sometimes you have to get their attention.
 
bbchien said:
I have described to some of you, my multi candidate. By all rights he's ready to sign off.

But he can NEVER get the first OEI of the day right. He's not paying attention.

One AM, maybe he will. Last time out I did a quiet engine kill 3 nm from the OM at low power. He didn't know it for two minutes. Missed the EGT scan entirely.

At the OM I said, "we need to go around".
He replied, "why? It's working so well".
"Go around". Throttles came up.
YOWSE!

I sure am glad I didn't wait until the MAP. This is not a silly game. This is called, "take the damned battery out of your Blackberry, we're talking serious survival here".

Sometimes you have to get their attention.
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Did you have him say "moo" before pushing the throttles up? It's an effective teaching aid ya know.:)
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I'm going by 35 years of experience, 28 of those as a CFII and also as a 135 check airman and also a sim instructor as well as a Part 121 Captain. Sorry I don't see the value of playing silly games as "teaching". :nonod:
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But...you're giving advice for free!!! That's not Professional!!!:smilewinkgrin:

Also- what if you use the plane for herding cattle? :)
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The only cattle herding I've done has been with a helicopter.:)
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But- do you say moo then? :smile:
Can you tip them at night with the skids? Or is cow tipping just a rural legend told to city slickers?
 
I'd never criticize what works for someone because we all learn differently, but I hope the CFI explained what was going on rather than just violating the sterile cockpit rule.

I had a yackity yack CFI on an IPC about two years ago. So yackity yack, he missed several calls to my plane. Understandable in that I know my call sign better than him, and the sound on his side may not have been as loud as mine, but it made me aware of what could be a problem. As we got 15 minutes out of the airport on Houston Approach, I invoked the sterile cockpit rule and told him to hold communications to those necessary for safe flight and check lists. After a couple minutes, he couldn't hold back and began yacking again. (I was ahead of him on the approach as I had done the arrival a few times and he hadn't.). Anyway, I pushed the pilot isolate button on the garmin so he couldn't interrupt me again until we rolled out on final. As we taxied in, he said I was the first one to ever do that. I apologized and blamed it on a faulty com system. He agreed he had trouble hearing center and we both laughed about it later.

Let me share what one CFI who was just riding along with me once did that really woke me up. I was making an approach in VFR conditions to North Las Vegas and it was very busy. A couple things didn't go well in that tower called out traffic I couldn't see; didn't know the airport well and was very focused on landing on the correct parallel runway. Tower put a jet on my tail too close in. On short final, tower asked the jet if it could take the other runway and it did. I made a normal landing and tower asked me to call. I did and they asked why I didn't keep my speed up for the jet behind me. I told them I wasn't highly familiar with the airport and had done the best I could. I was very careful to properly identify the correct runway and get down on it. The tower chief thanked me for telling him that and said he was just trying to understand why he had to divert traffic.

After we had walked in and settled down, the friend who had been in the right seat and I chatted about it. He assured me I hadn't done anything wrong, but wondered if I had kept up with what was going on around me. As we talked, in a very nice, low key way he began asking me where the other aircraft on the approach were located as I was coming in. All I could recall with the traffic I followed and what I knew about the jet behind me. He nicely drew a picture of one plane after another until there were six. They were all somewhere on the same approach or in the traffic pattern while I was on the approach. It very poignantly made the point that I had blocked out other important information while fixating on the approach. Really opened up my mind to what I had missed that could have been important.

I have also taped a couple approaches and gone back later to identify where other traffic was. Didn't memorize tail numbers, but did really help me in identifying what else was going on.

I've never seen anyone else do this. Seemed like a wonderful learning experience to me.

Best,

Dave
 
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