How to sell your Airplane

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Plan on giving it away at a real low price, not what you think it's worth. The only people saying prices are up are those who don't grasp reality.
 
There is a disconnect on what some of the "experts" on this forum think planes are worth and what some of the owners would be thrilled to take and move on.

And a lot of misplaced value on avionics and panels.



Just kind of what is floating around, on "usable, generic planes":

100hp. $15-22k

150hp. $25-30k

235hp. $35-40k

Average paint, mid time engines. Some attempt at upgrading panels and radios.


YMMV
 
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JoseCuervo said:
There is a disconnect on what some of the "experts" on this forum think planes are worth and what some of the owners would be thrilled to take and move on.

And a lot of misplaced value on avionics and panels.



Just kind of what is floating around, on "usable, generic planes":

100hp. $15-22k

150hp. $25-30k

235hp. $35-40k

Average paint, mid time engines. Some attempt at upgrading panels and radios.


YMMV
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That matches up quite well with my 180hp Maule sell a little over a year ago. I tried to price it to sell but with some determination to stay at that price minus any specific unaccounted for allowances.

I knew I had it about right when a reseller type buyer showed up immediately and tried to negotiate down primarily based on being first and fast with a check. I was in no hurry (note that). A cross country buyer contacted me and seemed serious and ready. He felt the price was fair, knew what he was getting and was an A&P. Given the distance, it required full disclosure over the net insuring that there would be zero surprises if the trip was made. All that happened and we're both very happy with the transaction (recently confirmed by phone).

In retrospect, both buying and selling the Maule were satisfying transactions...which is the way it should be.
 
I don't think you'll find many people who are actually in the aviation business who think prices have gone up a dime since Labor Day 2007.

The big slide appears to have finally stopped or at least slowed for desirable airplanes. A few have seen a very slight rebound from rock bottom but the job economy still sucks even though the stock-market economy has risen dramatically.

Whatever amount of extra money that's created by an improved job economy is expected be sucked up by healthcare costs, so the prospects for improvement in plane-buying sector isn't looking all that pert.
brien23 said:
Plan on giving it away at a real low price, not what you think it's worth. The only people saying prices are up are those who don't grasp reality.
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wabower said:
I don't think you'll find many people who are actually in the aviation business who think prices have gone up a dime since Labor Day 2007.
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Minor point, but why do you use the date of Labor Day 2007?

I always think of Sept 2008 as the reset date on most assets when McCain declared "the fundamentals of our economy are fine" as Lehman Bros, Et al were collapsing.
 
The ongoing news and rumors about the sub-primes had taken a toll. The economy was softening dramatically and the plane market was following suit. We had known for some time that the then-current pricing level couldn't continue and had been advising clients (both buyers and sellers) that a big adjustment could be coming almost any day.

I delivered a King Air B-200 on Labor Day weekend to a group of investment managers for which they paid $2.3 mil and that we had told them was at least $100k more than we thought they should pay, but planes were scarce, they wanted one immediately and they could afford the slide. Within a few weeks asking prices for similar planes was ~$2 mil and later slid to ~$1.5 mil.

The big crash started within a week of 10-1-2008, but prices had dropped significantly prior to then. Within a few months the number of airplanes advertised for sale had more than doubled and prices were down ~50% from mid 2007.

PS: Under the "all's well that ends well" story line, the group still owns the plane and like it a lot. Several members of the group have changed, but it's still here and flying regularly.

JoseCuervo said:
Minor point, but why do you use the date of Labor Day 2007?

I always think of Sept 2008 as the reset date on most assets when McCain declared "the fundamentals of our economy are fine" as Lehman Bros, Et al were collapsing.
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Got it. You use Sept 2007 for the high water mark, and I use Sept 2008 for the low water mark.


What would a similar King Air 200 sell for today?
 
wabower said:
The ongoing news and rumors about the sub-primes had taken a toll. The economy was softening dramatically and the plane market was following suit. We had known for some time that the then-current pricing level couldn't continue and had been advising clients (both buyers and sellers) that a big adjustment could be coming almost any day.

I delivered a King Air B-200 on Labor Day weekend to a group of investment managers for which they paid $2.3 mil and that we had told them was at least $100k more than we thought they should pay, but planes were scarce, they wanted one immediately and they could afford the slide. Within a few weeks asking prices for similar planes was ~$2 mil and later slid to ~$1.5 mil.

The big crash started within a week of 10-1-2008, but prices had dropped significantly prior to then. Within a few months the number of airplanes advertised for sale had more than doubled and prices were down ~50% from mid 2007.

PS: Under the "all's well that ends well" story line, the group still owns the plane and like it a lot. Several members of the group have changed, but it's still here and flying regularly.
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That was about the time I started flying (first lesson was 9/7/07). I remember discovering Trade-A-Plane and Controller, and looking in the piston twin realm, seeing old 421As in that $100k range advertised.

By the time I bought the Aztec (1/1/09), prices were such that it was a great time for me to buy. The seller of the Aztec took about an $80k on the price vs. what he paid when he bought 9t (which was about 1/1/07) but didn't care too much since he was upgrading to a $400k Cheyenne. 4 years and 1,000 hours later on the Aztec, I could have normally sold it for about $28k (so only a $12k hit, and if it didn't have the extra 1,000 hours on the engines vs. when I bought it probably could have sold it for about the same), but ended up making a good deal that let me sell it for my purchase price. I consider that a happy ending, seeing as I got 4 years and 1,000 hours of great use out of it, had maintenance costs that I think are more or less expected for a plane of that age and use, but the only truly major repair I ever had was doing a top overhaul on one engine. Never had to pull an engine, never had to service a prop. Also never had an engine failure.

Meanwhile, asking prices are pretty much what I remember seeing when I bought the Aztec. I suspect they'll more or less stay stable, but they may go up a bit as some owners continue to let their planes degrade to scrap and potentially remove them from the market.
 
Low water mark was late 2009-thru early 2010 when reality finally set in that a turn-around was nowhere in sight. High inventories, bank pressures, broke dealers and crappy economy with no end in sight triggered some amazingly good deals for buyers.

But like all bad times, buyers were afraid to act because they didn't know where/when the bottom would occur, so the number of actual killer deals wasn't all that great.

JoseCuervo said:
Got it. You use Sept 2007 for the high water mark, and I use Sept 2008 for the low water mark.


What would a similar King Air 200 sell for today?
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brien23 said:
Plan on giving it away at a real low price, not what you think it's worth. The only people saying prices are up are those who don't grasp reality.
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I don't know anyone saying prices are up. I assume you are a seller and you are selling an apache, which is a model that has been hard to sell for at least the last 4 decades.

So to paraphrase your original post, if you want to sell plan on giving it away for what the market values it at, not your own inflated sense of its worth.
 
JHW said:
I don't know anyone saying prices are up. I assume you are a seller and you are selling an apache, which is a model that has been hard to sell for at least the last 4 decades.

So to paraphrase your original post, if you want to sell plan on giving it away for what the market values it at, not your own inflated sense of its worth.
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Your right. I just want to get rid of it but I have a partner that I still have to convince.
 
Give him a buy-or-sell price and let him pick the option.
brien23 said:
Your right. I just want to get rid of it but I have a partner that I still have to convince.
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wabower said:
Give him a buy-or-sell price and let him pick the option.
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Good way to end partnerships and settle estates! :D
I sold my Citation in April 2007 and that was pretty near the beginning of the end for jet prices. Wayne says Labor Day, and that's close enough for me. ;)
The market for some planes is up slightly over last year, but no real improvement with most models, and legacy Citations, Beechjets, old Lears etc can be bought so cheap it's scary! :dunno: I told a buddy of mine today that just sold his Seneca V that he could buy a nice Citation I S/P with the proceeds and have enough left over to buy fuel for a year! :D He was shocked and a little intrigued. :goofy:
 
You can sell your 425 and buy your Citation-II back by using the same formula. :D

N747JB said:
Good way to end partnerships and settle estates! :D
I sold my Citation in April 2007 and that was pretty near the beginning of the end for jet prices. Wayne says Labor Day, and that's close enough for me. ;)
The market for some planes is up slightly over last year, but no real improvement with most models, and legacy Citations, Beechjets, old Lears etc can be bought so cheap it's scary! :dunno: I told a buddy of mine today that just sold his Seneca V that he could buy a nice Citation I S/P with the proceeds and have enough left over to buy fuel for a year! :D He was shocked and a little intrigued. :goofy:
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wabower said:
I don't think you'll find many people who are actually in the aviation business who think prices have gone up a dime since Labor Day 2007.

The big slide appears to have finally stopped or at least slowed for desirable airplanes. A few have seen a very slight rebound from rock bottom but the job economy still sucks even though the stock-market economy has risen dramatically.

Whatever amount of extra money that's created by an improved job economy is expected be sucked up by healthcare costs, so the prospects for improvement in plane-buying sector isn't looking all that pert.
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Not to mention fuel prices have purt near doubled since then, I was paying ~3.00/gal then, I'm paying over 6 now. Im not so sure the average wage has doubled to account for it.
 
wabower said:
You can sell your 425 and buy your Citation-II back by using the same formula. :D
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The wife really didn't understand why I didn't buy another Citation for less money than the Conquest.;)
 
bartmc said:
Not to mention fuel prices have purt near doubled since then, I was paying ~3.00/gal then, I'm paying over 6 now. Im not so sure the average wage has doubled to account for it.
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Yeah, that takes some of the fun out of flying!:mad2:
 
I bought a 66 Cherokee in 2003 or so for about $20k with a run out engine. I flew it 880 hrs and sold it 8 years later for $15k without ever rebuilding the engine. I didn't spend more than $10 per flight hour on maintenance and inspections over those years. It cost me less than my cheapest car.

Because I listed it at a realistic price and held firm on that price I sold it within 1 week of listing it on the airport cork board where it was hangar-ed. The local flight school bought it. I never listed it with any online registry (controller/tradeaplane)and it sold in a ridiculously low amount of time.

Over the years I saw these people pay for 1 or 2 annuals and insurance, taxes and 12-24 months of hangar rent, not flying their airplanes, while trying to sell their planes and even this slow country boy figured out I'm money ahead to set the price 10% below what I thought I could get for it rather than 20% above like everyone else did.

I figure that I have zero transaction costs on the sale. No broker, no nothing and if I had a loan, no interest nor payments.... I think if people were more business like on selling their aircraft the markets would be alot more fluid and you might even see people able to buy in and out of two or three or four airplanes as their mission and needs changed.

brien23 said:
Plan on giving it away at a real low price, not what you think it's worth. The only people saying prices are up are those who don't grasp reality.
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If you want out,then have your partner buy you out and give him an offer he can't refuse. When prices where really falling I traded my twin and took the hit. Never looked back.
 
N747JB said:
The wife really didn't understand why I didn't buy another Citation for less money than the Conquest.;)
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My mom still can't figure out why I don't have something with an air stair door.

Then when we fly someplace in the Aztec/310, she can't believe how much fuel costs. Hmm...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My mom still can't figure out why I don't have something with an air stair door.

Then when we fly someplace in the Aztec/310, she can't believe how much fuel costs. Hmm...
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So, are you in the market for a T-Bone, now?
:D:D:D
 
brien23 said:
Your right. I just want to get rid of it but I have a partner that I still have to convince.
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Jut tell Rich you'er selling your half to me. he'll sell.
 
jhausch said:
Someone's gotta watch the kid at the destination....
;)
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Who said my mom was capable of watching the kid? We have to bring someone along to watch her.
 
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