How to round out.

I learned by watching my CFI's hands and listening to his breathing ... when his fingers started to twitch, I started just a little back-pressure on the yoke. When he inhaled sharply, I pulled to a flare... :D if he gasped and grabbed, I know I was just about right. :D
 
dtuuri said:
I don't remember spin training ever not being required for CFIs. I had to do them in 1967 and have a logbook endorsement before the flight test. Maybe you mean they had to do them on a flight test if they previously failed that area? :confused:

dtuuri
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Interesting. I got the dates wrong - should be 1949 and 1991. But here's the source of my information - the Federal Register discussion of the Final Rule that added the current CFI spin training requirement. This is part of it but, having read the whole thing, I don't see any reference to an existing spin training requirement for instructors. Could be the way the commentary was worded, though.

==============================
This rule amends Secs. 61.49, 61.183, and 61.187 to require that applicants for flight instructor certificates, airplane and glider, present a logbook endorsement of spin training, and to require a mandatory demonstration of spins on a retest for flight instructor certification if a candidate for the aforementioned certificates failed either the oral or flight portion of the practical test due to deficiencies in stall/spin awareness and associated procedures and techniques. The examiner has the option of requiring spins on the initial flight test and retains discretion to require a spinable aircraft for that test. Thus, while the FAA intends that spin demonstration still may be required on the initial flight instructor test, airplane or glider, a demonstration of spin entry and recovery will be required on the flight instructor retest if the candidate failed because of deficiencies in knowledge or skill related to stalls or spins.
==============================

Maybe there's something else that I am missing? Wouldn't be the first time.
 
Problem is, that the "actual" training isn't occurring, as evidenced by the constant questions am fear of even "slipping " on final . "Afraid of spinning" they say.
Seems the instructors are not really "instructionaly competent".
Sadly, most FAA Examiners are retired airline pilots who are also afraid of spinning and don't do them on checkrides .
And most pilot training in the U.S. has reduced to what is expected on the "Checkride ".
As if that closes the deal .
 
gkainz said:
I learned by watching my CFI's hands and listening to his breathing ... when his fingers started to twitch, I started just a little back-pressure on the yoke. When he inhaled sharply, I pulled to a flare... :D if he gasped and grabbed, I know I was just about right. :D
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ROFL!! I guess that goes along with the objective my CFI shared... Toward the end of the training, my job was to do well enough that he didn't have to say anything other than requesting the next maneuver.
 
eman1200 said:
I think I am the 2 bolded items away from a really good landing. I might pull back just a little too hard too quickly, and I need to remember to pull to idle at the right time. unfortunately wx aint lookin perty for KCLT @ 22zulu this evening.
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Idle at the right time is the easy part. Once you have the runway made, you don't need any more power usually in a Cessna.

(The thread about some other types behaving poorly in the flare with power off, aside... Any Cessna typicalky used for training and most others will behave fine power-off...)

Runway made, smoothly remove all that excess power. You don't need it to "get there" anymore.

If you can start from the proper speed before that and not "chop chop" like a crazed maniac (Endeavor to FLY SMOOTHLY!), it'll come into place quickly.

Same with pitch. Put it smoothly where you want it (there's a difference between smooth and SLOW. Don't always be SLOW to pitch if you need a big change, but if things are stable and going right, you shouldn't NEED a big change...), and it'll reward your efforts.

The old instructor game of finding a nice long runway and playing the "don't let it land" game can find where you're going wrong. If you hold it off, hold it off, pull more, faster the elevator is getting set-noodle now, hold it OFF!... game, and you chew up over 1000' of runway... You were WAY too fast. 500'... better... 200'... now you're getting to Pvt PTS standards... 50'... Oooh, nice... 10'... Now you're cooking with gas! (Nailing a spot with power and energy right that small is hard for even the best without cheating and going behind the power curve and chopping at the landing spot.)

It's allllll practice. And it's somewhat perishable as far as skills go. It can take three times around the patch to get it dialed in, or 30. Whatever it takes. Just try to make it better each time.

A good instructor will recognize when you're figuring it out, and let you have some leeway to be a little slow, a little fast, a plop-it-on, an accidental greaser (yeah, they can tell by the surprised look you tried to hide...), and then when you're feeling cocky, they'll throw you a curve ball and step up the game a bit. ("Those are looking pretty good....... How about you do one with no flaps the next time around? I'll bet you a Coke you can't hit that spot the first time. No pressure." [evil grin...])
 
nosehair said:
Problem is, that the "actual" training isn't occurring, as evidenced by the constant questions am fear of even "slipping " on final . "Afraid of spinning" they say.
Seems the instructors are not really "instructionaly competent".
Sadly, most FAA Examiners are retired airline pilots who are also afraid of spinning and don't do them on checkrides .
And most pilot training in the U.S. has reduced to what is expected on the "Checkride ".
As if that closes the deal .
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I have to quibble with your assertion that most DE's are retired airline pilots. When I was a DE, the school I worked for had five branches and three examiners and all three of us were GA pilots. Running through my rapidly fading memory, I can't recall any examiner in the Seattle area at that time who was retired airline.

I know that there are current examiners in the US who are employed as airline pilots and do checkrides on the side (they need the money, you know). Insofar as spins on checkrides are concerned, no PTS requires them.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
I have to quibble with your assertion that most DE's are retired airline pilots. When I was a DE, the school I worked for had five branches and three examiners and all three of us were GA pilots. Running through my rapidly fading memory, I can't recall any examiner in the Seattle area at that time who was retired airline.

I know that there are current examiners in the US who are employed as airline pilots and do checkrides on the side (they need the money, you know). Insofar as spins on checkrides are concerned, no PTS requires them.

Bob Gardner
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All the local one I know are very experienced GA, charter and corporate guys.
 
ja_user said:
All the local one I know are very experienced GA, charter and corporate guys.
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Ditto here. None of the five DPEs I used for my seven checkrides were airline pilots. All were experienced GA and/or corporate pilots.
 
I've had one of each. Doesn't really matter unless you want to hear 727 stories. ;)
 
Take your time and control your airspeed, that's what it took for me. Pretty consistent now after only 8 months and 135 hours! Transisition your eyes down the runway after you have rounded out.

Dave
 
bobmrg said:
I have to quibble with your assertion that most DE's are retired airline pilots.

Insofar as spins on checkrides are concerned, no PTS requires them.
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Bob, why would you want to quibble on that point?
My main point is that most inspectors don't want to do spins on checkrides.

To clarify, I didn't say DE (Designated Examiner), they have a different reason for not conducting a true full by the book checkride - money.

But was speaking of the FAA employed Flight Instructor Examiner. He supposedly examines without fear of losing "customers" like the DE has to do.
But most of them don't wanna do spins because they havn't spent a lifetime conducting GA training and don't really see the connection between spin training and accident reduction.

Flying big airplanes is not the same as little airplanes. There is a big big difference in stability and control. You know it. I know you do.

As for the requirement for spins on CFI flight tests, it is not prohibited. It is up to the Examiner to accept the CFI "endorsement" in leu of demonstrating the spin on the checkride.

And, I'm not even suggesting doing actual "spins", more than one turn.

The initial CFI applicant should be "instructionally competent " in recovering the "wing-drop" in a power-on stall when student allows the wing to drop past 60 and recover back to level before it gets to 90. And be cool about it. Not scared.

I call that the normal training required in "stall/spin awareness" required of a PP applicant.

Judging from what I read on these boards, ("will I spin if I slip on final?") CFI's are not being trained or tested on "stall/spin awareness" to the level that we should expect.

Designated Examiners are mostly GA, and are better trained to evaluate the GA applicant, but if they hold the applicant's feet to the fire, they will lose their customers to the DE who is "forgiving".

Take one of the simple maneuvers on the PP test - Landings. The PTS says "Lands on the centerline with no sideload".

I don't see that very often. Most GA landings with nosewheel airplanes have some sideload and are a little off centerline.

The actual landing in and of itself is safe and passable, but the skills required to actually plant it on centerline and landing in a true straight line with no sideload is the point of training. And testing.

The testing has deteriorated to a "license to learn", and the "learning" beyond testing is not happening.

Students, and instructors, will learn and teach "to the test". That is a fact of life as I now know it. So the testing has to be better. And actually, the PTS is ok, if Examiners would be strict about it.
 
not sure if y'all want to start another thread on non-roundout issues, but at least right now, roundout info is important to me (and obviously the OP) so maybe we can keep this post to that topic. again, just my $.02.
 
jpower said:
Hey look, another James! Welcome!

The way I look at it is that you try not to land. Hold the airplane a foot above the runway until it decides it won't fly any longer. I was having a similar problem to you when I learned, but when my instructor phrased it like that, it made a lot more sense to me and things worked themselves out nicely.

Also, doing low passes a few feet above the runway gives you tons more practice in the critical few seconds of the landing flare than shooting touch and goes does. It did wonders for my crosswind technique, so I see no reason it shouldn't help with the normal landing.
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Me as well. I was trained to basically flare and try to keep it a foot off the ground, when you bleed off enough airspeed the plane just stops flying and sinks down onto pavement.
 
nosehair said:
Take one of the simple maneuvers on the PP test - Landings. The PTS says "Lands on the centerline with no sideload".

I don't see that very often. Most GA landings with nosewheel airplanes have some sideload and are a little off centerline.
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Depends on whether "on the centerline" means it's located somewhere under the airplane vs the nose/tail wheel actually touches the painted line.:D
 
gismo said:
Depends on whether "on the centerline" means it's located somewhere under the airplane vs the nose/tail wheel actually touches the painted line.:D
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See? That's what I mean. Lawyers and philosophers "interpreting" the PTS for us.

The animals are running the zoo.
 
eman1200 said:
start another thread on non-roundout issues, but at least right now, roundout info is important to me (and obviously the OP)
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Right. Sorry about the thread creep. My advice on rounding out is to get some time flying in the "round-out" attitude down the runway.

Instead of maybe 10-15 seconds per landing at rounding out, start your round-out close to the approach end of the runway, then add just enough power to keep it "floating" about 3 to 5 feet off the runway with power so you get maybe a full minute floating down a mile long runway.

The time spent getting the visual cues for elevator, rudder, and aileron control will be well spent and you will gain valuable control.
 
The first motion of the yoke or stick is the SMALLEST amount that you can physically move (unless you are doing a minimum energy landing).....and still be sure you have moved it....
 
bbchien said:
The first motion of the yoke or stick is the SMALLEST amount that you can physically move (unless you are doing a minimum energy landing).....and still be sure you have moved it....
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if it ever, and I mean EVER, stops raining here in Charlotte, I'm going to try this. I think I'm, uh, yanking it too hard to start.
 
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denverpilot said:
Airplane doesn't know it's raining. ;)
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At least not while it's flying. Light rain is not IMC by itself.

You can have rain or showers with a 6000 foot ceiling and 20 miles visibility.

Heavy rain affects visibility and radio communications. That's probably not a good idea.

But there is no reason not to train in the rain. Not in the clouds, of course, and not anywhere near thunderstorms.

Landing IS a bit different in the rain, for the same reason it is in a car. The wheels will skid much more easily. But all the more reason to do this while you're still training.
 
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It was just an old joke from an old CFI friend intended to point out that airplanes generally don't care. Only the pilot does.

It was kinda his way of saying, "Get your instrument rating." :)
 
Female rain: slow, steady, warm rain falling vertically out of a high overcast = fun!
 
MAKG1 said:
At least not while it's flying. Light rain is not IMC by itself.

You can have rain or showers with a 6000 foot ceiling and 20 miles visibility.

Heavy rain affects visibility and radio communications. That's probably not a good idea.

But there is no reason not to train in the rain. Not in the clouds, of course, and not anywhere near thunderstorms.

Landing IS a bit different in the rain, for the same reason it is in a car. The wheels will skid much more easily. But all the more reason to do this while you're still training.
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Flying in the rain aint that big of a deal.

Learned to fly in WA, if I never flew in rain I would never have flown lol
 
bbchien said:
The first motion of the yoke or stick is the SMALLEST amount that you can physically move (unless you are doing a minimum energy landing).....and still be sure you have moved it....
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ok, so I only got 5 laps around the pattern today due to weather (again) but I tried this trick. unfortunately I did it TOO lightly the first two times. by the last landing, I really nailed the roundout, perfect height and right amount of pull, but because I'm just a dumbass, I left just a touch of power in, just enough for a little ballooning and keeping me from my first greaser. I knew I nailed the roundout, I could feel it, and I think I have a good idea of how much pull I need. so, if the wx holds out tom'w, we'll find out!
 
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