How to know when to say enough?

Don Jones

Don Jones

Line Up and Wait
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DJones
I feel I have my first student which is never going to get it. I have only flown 3 hours with him so far, but he was given to my by my boss to see if I could work him through it. He has 30+ hours and is no where near being able to solo. So far nothing either of us has tried has worked to get this guy consistent. His approaches are all over the place, too high, too low, too fast, too slow. Simple fact is he thinks he is doing ok despite the several heart to heart's he and my boss have had. They flew again this morning and evidently the student has decided he wants me to finish him up. Ha! I am supposed to fly with him tomorrow morning and plan to lay it on the line of where he's at and where he needs to go. I just need some input from those of you who are much more experienced than I. Any good words of wisdom?
 
I feel your pain. I've had a few students like this myself. They seem to have some type of delusional view of their abilities. I guy I was working with was trying to get current after being off for 30 years. We got his landings down ok, but he consistently missed and botched radio comms with the tower. He was convinced that I was being too hard on him. Finally, we went up with a digital recorder and I let him handle everything. Back on the ground, the playback proved to him that he still didn't have it. Maybe recording a lesson might allow your student to analyse his performance more objectively back on the ground.

Good Flying! - Russ
 
It took me forever to learn how to land.

Give him the 40 hours it took me. :smilewinkgrin:

I suspect other students might not have the will, money and airplane to stick with it that long.
 
What is the average students have when they solo? checkride? I had around 54 hours when I took my checkride, is it really common to have more? I've heard ranges of over 70-100hrs and some that get it right at 40.
 
I was able to solo at 10, checkride at 43.7, but I had an instructor whose skills and enthusiasm were remarkable.

---

I think Russ has the right idea - tell the student you are going to fly with him and to pretend as if you are not there... and see what happens. If he starts to go wrong, allow the latitude (within the bounds of safety).

If, at the end of that process, he has no area in which his performance is acceptable, you may have to have the "Come to Jesus" speech, and it may be inevitable; on the other hand, you may be able to isolate a few key areas which are most in need of attention and, attacking those with intensity, you may be able to break the cycle.

Like Mike says above, he may just be a tough cookie, but not untrainable, and if his attitude and intellect allow for further learning, albeit at a slower pace than many, then you can continue the process with a clear conscience.

There was a student who went through at about the same time as I, same instructor, and he took, if I recall correctly, 120 hours before the instructor could sign him off for the checkride, and he was OK with that. It did take a long time, but now the guy is instrument rated and flying in HP/complex aircraft, and doing so safely. He himself told me that, when he learns, it's like you have to carve it into the stone instead of writing it on the page- but once carved, the writings last a great while, indeed!

Good luck.
 
I am not a CFI. But in my project mentor dealings I have dealt with one guy that to this day I don't think will ever "get it".
Actually "write stuff" knows this guy, he has flown with him I believe.
But back to the point. As he suggested, maybe doing a video of his landings may make him "see" how bad he is?
I know my old CFI once had a student like this. So he asked the local DE/CFI (since he wasn't going to use him) to go for a ride with him and give him a mock check ride. Well the student didn't get through the oral before he found out what he DIDN'T know.
Being from someone not affiliated with the school seemed to really bring it home for him. An idea???

Mark B.
 
My private students pretty consistantly take their checkrides between 60 and 65 hours. I could probably shave 5 to 7 hours off of that by training to closer to the minimums on night and x-country. But I like to give the student a little extra training in these areas. My student pass rate is still 100% after 11 years of instructing.

I have worked with some students trained primarily by other instructors that have completed the requirements in closer to 40 hours. Their success rate on the check rides is much lower, like maybe 70%.

As to the original posters question, The way I usually handle his situation is I tell the student up front that I think it is going to be challenging and will take him significantly more hours than the norm to solo and complete his certificate. My accessment may be wrong and I will continue do everything I can to help him complete his goal should he decide to continue. I also recommend he get a 2nd opinion. (sounds like the OP has already done this) Then while flying I make sure to let him know specifically what he is doing (when he does it) that is preventing him from progressing. I also make a list during the flight so we can review it and the end of the flight. I have had few student that I didn't think woud make it, do so, but most eventually give up.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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In the initial post I didn't see any analysis as to why he it too high, too low, too fast, too slow. Are you saying he is not capable of comprehending how that happens and how to fix it? Sounds like he needs to be taken to the practice area and work on one set of issues at a time so he truly understands what causes either set. Go out one day and just work on speed control and once he shows a comprehension for that then work on the altitude control.

I'm curious if you went into this with a, "my boss told me this guy can't hack it attitude" or a "this is a great challenge for me to prove my instructional abilities"

Good Luck, I bet you can do it!!
 
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Agreed. Write down 10 things you want to see him do tomorrow, and the acceptable +/- for each. Review the list before you fly. Then watch his performance and write down the results. Review it with him after the flight and give him a copy. Tell him to think about them and be prepared to tell you how he's going to do them better when he comes back next time.



Yep.
SCCutler said:
I was able to solo at 10, checkride at 43.7, but I had an instructor whose skills and enthusiasm were remarkable.

---

I think Russ has the right idea - tell the student you are going to fly with him and to pretend as if you are not there... and see what happens. If he starts to go wrong, allow the latitude (within the bounds of safety).

If, at the end of that process, he has no area in which his performance is acceptable, you may have to have the "Come to Jesus" speech, and it may be inevitable; on the other hand, you may be able to isolate a few key areas which are most in need of attention and, attacking those with intensity, you may be able to break the cycle.

Like Mike says above, he may just be a tough cookie, but not untrainable, and if his attitude and intellect allow for further learning, albeit at a slower pace than many, then you can continue the process with a clear conscience.

There was a student who went through at about the same time as I, same instructor, and he took, if I recall correctly, 120 hours before the instructor could sign him off for the checkride, and he was OK with that. It did take a long time, but now the guy is instrument rated and flying in HP/complex aircraft, and doing so safely. He himself told me that, when he learns, it's like you have to carve it into the stone instead of writing it on the page- but once carved, the writings last a great while, indeed!

Good luck.
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The only thing that bothers me about this story is that he thinks he's doing OK. Is he doing well enough to let him land sometimes and see how bad he's doing?

I like the ideas of trying to nail airspeed and descent rate while adding flaps out in the practice area.

I also think that as long as he knows his progress is slow and has a safe attitude there's no reason not to keep training him.

Joe
 
Tristar said:
What is the average students have when they solo? checkride? I had around 54 hours when I took my checkride, is it really common to have more? I've heard ranges of over 70-100hrs and some that get it right at 40.
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Most training done is "academy" style training of foreign students. It's on a tight schedule, most will solo around 11-15hrs and will have a license within 5 hrs of minimums be they 91 or 141. There are people who take 70-100+. They are not typical regardless what internet cheerleaders say. Typically, there are advanced issues with them.

In this case, if the guy feels he wants to keep going after the CFI has sat down and given them a reality check that unless they manage to correct XXX issues, they will not solo much less become certificated. If they are paying the bill and decide to continue, go for it. I figure about 150hrs for a good chimp. My 9 year old nephew could fly and land a mis rigged PA-12 from the back seat in 9hrs. As long as you come at this with full disclosure, it's his money, let him spend it.
 
I had ~100, but about 75 of them were solo X/C over three years of college summers. If the plane was there I could go. If I thought the winds were too strong I was supposed to stay home. As long as I brought the plane back in one piece and paid for the flight I could go again next time. It was different in western OK back then. :)

Tristar said:
What is the average students have when they solo? checkride? I had around 54 hours when I took my checkride, is it really common to have more? I've heard ranges of over 70-100hrs and some that get it right at 40.
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Check out the CFIcast, #9, "Challenged students & students who are a challenge." I'm on that one talking about the first part of the title which has nothing to do with the OP. Later the show has some great discussion led by Rick Durden dealing with the topic of students who seem like they're not going to get it.

http://pilotcast.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=316550

Getting a second opinion is a good start. IMHO you can't teach judgement. Some people just don't seem to have it in flying.
 
Don Jones said:
I feel I have my first student which is never going to get it. I have only flown 3 hours with him so far, but he was given to my by my boss to see if I could work him through it. He has 30+ hours and is no where near being able to solo. So far nothing either of us has tried has worked to get this guy consistent. His approaches are all over the place, too high, too low, too fast, too slow. Simple fact is he thinks he is doing ok despite the several heart to heart's he and my boss have had. They flew again this morning and evidently the student has decided he wants me to finish him up. Ha! I am supposed to fly with him tomorrow morning and plan to lay it on the line of where he's at and where he needs to go. I just need some input from those of you who are much more experienced than I. Any good words of wisdom?
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "he thinks he's doing OK". Do you mean that his slow progress is acceptable to him or that he fails to recognize and/or correct when he's high, fast, low, slow etc on approach?

If it's the former, I'd say that as long as he understands that his slow progress will require him to spend more money and time than he might have been led to believe was needed to obtain a pilot's certificate and is OK with that, I'd keep looking for ways to improve his stick and rudder skills.

If it's the latter, you need to figure out whether this is a perception problem (i.e. he doesn't understand how to detect when above or below the intended flight path) or a control problem (he can tell that he's off but doesn't correct properly). Then you can attack the problem.

simply need to give him the tools to detect approach errors and the techniques to correct them when recognized.
 
When I first came here, I was told we don't let students make bad landings. Well, sometimes you have to give a student enough rope so they know what the limits are. Short of letting them porpoise and potential damage result, I'll let them land a bit hard or with a slight side load and see the result of what they did or didn't do. Something may seem perfectly normal if they don't see the result of why such an action is in error. Sometimes, you have to learn what doesn't work so you're less likely to do it again.
 
CFI's:
Does the age of the student have anything to do with the time to checkride? Overall skill level? Ability to learn?
 
Kelvin said:
CFI's:
Does the age of the student have anything to do with the time to checkride? Overall skill level? Ability to learn?
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Probably only as to their ability to comprehend the information relative to other things they've learned along with their level of judgment. I think those exist at all ages but are more of an issue at younger ages.
 
KennyFlys said:
When I first came here, I was told we don't let students make bad landings. Well, sometimes you have to give a student enough rope so they know what the limits are. Short of letting them porpoise and potential damage result, I'll let them land a bit hard or with a slight side load and see the result of what they did or didn't do. Something may seem perfectly normal if they don't see the result of why such an action is in error. Sometimes, you have to learn what doesn't work so you're less likely to do it again.
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Big 10-4, good buddy.
 
KennyFlys said:
When I first came here, I was told we don't let students make bad landings. Well, sometimes you have to give a student enough rope so they know what the limits are. Short of letting them porpoise and potential damage result, I'll let them land a bit hard or with a slight side load and see the result of what they did or didn't do. Something may seem perfectly normal if they don't see the result of why such an action is in error. Sometimes, you have to learn what doesn't work so you're less likely to do it again.
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One day while standing in our FBO, one of the other instructors got out of the airplane and sent his student off to solo. The 1st thing the instructor said as he walked into the FBO was "he can't make a good landing to save his life, on the other hand he is better at recovering from bad landings than I am." :)

The Students that scare me the most are the ones that never make a bad landing because I can't tell if they have the judgement or skill to recover from one when the do make a bad landing.

Also lack of skill does not translate into lack of judgement. There are some very skilled pilots that have very poor judgement.

Brian
 
brcase said:
One day while standing in our FBO, one of the other instructors got out of the airplane and sent his student off to solo. The 1st thing the instructor said as he walked into the FBO was "he can't make a good landing to save his life, on the other hand he is better at recovering from bad landings than I am." :)
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My primary instructor always told me that I could salvage the most jacked up approaches better than he could. Which was mostly related to the fact that I didn't know what a pattern was during my earlier years of flying as a kid. It was always just..theres a place to land..here you are..make the airplane go there. Early on in my training I would totally botch a pattern and then he would wait to see what I'd do..and I'd always salvage it in the last 100 feet or 1/4 mile.

Still to this day--I often just hot-rod down to short final and then slip to lose some energy and place the airplane on a reasonable glide-path with a touch-down on the numbers. It is a lot of fun to practice getting an airplane from point A to point B at undesirable altitudes, attitudes, or energy levels. I try to be standard and predictable though if there are other airplanes around or if I have another pilot with me.

It'd be a lot of fun to have your own airport in the middle of nowhere where you could do whatever you so pleased.

As far as the actual landings--I am nowhere near as good as I used to be. Mostly do to limited flying and no tailwheel airplanes. I dearly miss the aircraft I could rent in Minneapolis...It was nice being tailwheel current..someday.
 
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Be very upfront with this candidate. Tell him you want to start from the BEGINNING, or at least at the rate he's going, it's looks like it's going to cost that much.

Video EVERYTHING. Have it running in the cabin. Make sure you can see his FACE particularly his EYES. Have video running on the ground. Costs $$s, yes, but he wants to fly, yes?

Be very leery of quitting. I have a NEt Jets former mentee who got stuck at ERAU after 9/11 because her chief CFI put her into the penalty box with a legacy scion student whom after 10 hours she simply concluded, "not gonna happen".

Hang in there!
 
Ok, so more info. My boss is extremely experienced and has been teaching for a long time. He is almost always successful in working through this stuff with his students. I have sat in for him lately on a few that were not making the progress he felt they should and I helped them greatly. Just hearing it from someone else often helps. I am virtually a clone of this instructor since he has been my instructor from my private all the way through all my ratings. We teach a lot alike.

I look at these situations as a challenge. My primary focus is to help them through their learning plateau's and often find myself going back to basics to correct a problem causing them difficulty.

First issue with this student was total lack of airspeed control on approach from downwind on he was all over the map where speed is concerned. I hammered on his trim technique and he has improved there somewhat, as long as I continually prompt him.
The part that really bothers me about this guy, He can be coming in on final extremely low and getting slow and I can ask him "so what's wrong with this approach?"
Him: "looks fine to me"
Me:"no, it isn't fine, look at your airspeed, what should it be and why are we getting cactus thorns in the tires?
Him: "it should be 75 and I guess we are a little low"
Me:"then why are we going 60 and why aren't you doing something about it? power on, go around"

It's just weird that he knows what he should be doing and still doesn't recognize he isn't getting it done. Hmmm

He does understand it's going to take him a long time and seems ok with that. I am going to try my best to work him through it, it's just this one has me a bit puzzled.

Lots of good input here, keep it coming!!!
 
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The one student that I had that didn't "get it" was a retired college professor
(smart) that I took after no one else could make any progress. Many heart to heart talks later we came to the understanding that he liked talking about flying and had a real interest, just not the skills. We agreed that I wasn't taking advantage of him or his money and we just went out and flew for a hour a week for a year or so. He enjoyed it immensely, and I could deal with the frustration knowing his motives. We were good friends until he passed away.
Dave
 
d.grimm said:
The one student that I had that didn't "get it" was a retired college professor
(smart) that I took after no one else could make any progress. Many heart to heart talks later we came to the understanding that he liked talking about flying and had a real interest, just not the skills. We agreed that I wasn't taking advantage of him or his money and we just went out and flew for a hour a week for a year or so. He enjoyed it immensely, and I could deal with the frustration knowing his motives. We were good friends until he passed away.
Dave
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I'm doing similar with a student who has been delayed until he is off some meds. He wants to keep flying so we do that when he is able. Once I got him turned on to Cooper's BBQ brisket, he didn't need a lot of motivation to fly. :) We'll keep that up for a few more months when he should be done with the meds. The worst part about it, two weeks after he started on the meds he had his best landings ever. I wanted to solo the guy so dang bad. I would have endorsed him on the spot.
 
Try for a bit more....but something that seems to be taboo here is actually saying that some people are just not cut out to be pilots.

That is not smug or elitist, but some people cannot drive a stick, ride a motorcycle, scuba dive, or even ride a bicycle very well.

Not EVERYONE has the ability/capability to be a pilot.
 
tdager said:
Try for a bit more....but something that seems to be taboo here is actually saying that some people are just not cut out to be pilots.

That is not smug or elitist, but some people cannot drive a stick, ride a motorcycle, scuba dive, or even ride a bicycle very well.

Not EVERYONE has the ability/capability to be a pilot.
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Agreed, but some here want to make it a hard core decision when often it's only a back down from the current training level, a redirect on how to handle things or simply a breather while some other issues are settled.

I have two students who started out very rough. Both have around 25 hours. Had I given up on them when things were so tough, neither would have been flying this last weekend with unassisted landings.
 
I understand Ken, and absolutely applaud you and other instructors that see the "tough spot" many students are in a work to get them over it, whatever it takes.

I guess I was referring to those admittedly few students that just will never get it.
 
tdager said:
I guess I was referring to those admittedly few students that just will never get it.
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There are some, yet they are few.

Too many instructors expect the same level of rigor and discipline they experienced or wish they'd experienced in the military.

This ain't the Army -- this is private, general aviation VFR flying. Sure the stakes are high, but it's not attack missions.

Anyway, it's the rare student who sails through the entire PP curriculum without dead spots or times of doubt. Often this is due to a lack of imagination.

Intelligent, imaginative types can conjure up all sorts of troubles lying just beneath the surface. Our job as pilots and instructors it to help them manage the demons-- not necessarily elimate or ignore them.

Often the dull-witted appear "brave," when really they just don't understand.
 
tdager said:
Try for a bit more....but something that seems to be taboo here is actually saying that some people are just not cut out to be pilots.
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That's true, but most of those people don't have the time, money or dedication to get to the point where the instructor has to make the call.

I've flown with people who are too stupid, too smart, too impulsive, too passive, and too downright nuts to be pilots. Almost all of them enjoyed their lessons.

I wouldn't even think of signing them off for solo if they weren't safe to do so. And I'm as honest as I can be while being polite in what I think is the problem and how much time and money it will cost them to progress to the next step.

So far they have all either decided I was incompetent and moved on to someone else, quit or solved the problem. I have yet to give up on somebody.

Joe
 
brcase said:
Also lack of skill does not translate into lack of judgement. There are some very skilled pilots that have very poor judgement.
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WRT "giving up" on a student I think if I were a CFI the only time I'd ever want to tell a student to quit would be if it was obvious that his judgement and/or attitude was such that I thought he'd get himself into trouble because of it. I believe the level of skills required for a PPL can be learned by almost anyone (given enough time and money) although some slow learners might require unusual methods of teaching but IME judgement is pretty much impossible to "teach" (it can be learned) within the relationship of a CFI and student pilot.

For the stuggling student that doesn't seem to have the "right stuff" skills wise I agree that they should be informed (as politely as possible) that at their current rate of progress they will need to spend considerably more time and money pursuing this goal and that those resources might run out before the goal is accomplished and then let the student decide when to quit. I also believe that a significant amount of some student's lack of progress can be laid at the feet of their instructor's inability to tailor their methods of teaching to the student's needs.
 
Don Jones said:
First issue with this student was total lack of airspeed control on approach from downwind on he was all over the map where speed is concerned. I hammered on his trim technique and he has improved there somewhat, as long as I continually prompt him.
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So he is constantly applying pressure to the yoke instead of using the trim?

Can you get him to fly with trim only? Don't let him use more than his thumb and one finger on the yoke?

Just a thought...

Oh, and Tristan asked about time to solo - I had just over two hours dual logged when I soloed in a Cessna 120...
(Obviously there were some unlogged hours :D)
 
Areeda said:
I've flown with people who are too stupid, too smart, too impulsive, too passive, and too downright nuts to be pilots. Almost all of them enjoyed their lessons. Joe
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I think you just described this guy. He is the intellegent type, a doctor actually. I feel he is has convinced himself his abilities are far better than they are. From my perspective he just won't take control of the airplane. He is happy to sit there passively droning along when things are going bad. Bad trait for a pilot!

Usually students that are in a plateau or hitting a particular rough spot in their training give us instructors some glimmer of hope periodically, such as a timely power correction, a well executed approach (even if it's followed by a landing that sets off the elt), something! This one just does not. He no showed me this morning, so who knows, maybe he is considering his options.:redface:
 
gismo said:
I also believe that a significant amount of some student's lack of progress can be laid at the feet of their instructor's inability to tailor their methods of teaching to the student's needs.
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I agree. Instruction is an information transfer problem, measured by how much is received error free. Some transmitters are just incompatible with some receivers, even when both are fully functional and within specs.

I think the best way to address this is the way Don is doing it. Have the student talk and fly with different instructors, searching for one that works.

Joe
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So he is constantly applying pressure to the yoke instead of using the trim?

Can you get him to fly with trim only? Don't let him use more than his thumb and one finger on the yoke?

Just a thought...
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...at first yes he was flying out of trim. He was using the trim, just over doing it. It's not like I haven't made some progress, although not very much.
 
Don Jones said:
I think you just described this guy. He is the intellegent type, a doctor actually. I feel he is has convinced himself his abilities are far better than they are. From my perspective he just won't take control of the airplane. He is happy to sit there passively droning along when things are going bad. Bad trait for a pilot!
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My last student (who passed his checkride after a first round bust) was very similar -- passive, unwilling to take charge, waiting for the airplane to take care of him.

On more than one occasion I had to give him the "YOU need to take charge of this airplane!" speech. Department Chairs aren't used to being talked to like that, BTW.

I avoided touching any controls -- which took ALOT of self-discipline!!
One landing was so poor he damaged a wheel fairing (his airplane).

He eventually got it, passed the PP, and will start the IR this summer.

For some people the airplane is the venue for learning other, more crucial life skills. Sadly, some quit before they get that far.
 
Don Jones said:
First issue with this student was total lack of airspeed control on approach from downwind on he was all over the map where speed is concerned. I hammered on his trim technique and he has improved there somewhat, as long as I continually prompt him.
The part that really bothers me about this guy, He can be coming in on final extremely low and getting slow and I can ask him "so what's wrong with this approach?"
Him: "looks fine to me"
Me:"no, it isn't fine, look at your airspeed, what should it be and why are we getting cactus thorns in the tires?
Him: "it should be 75 and I guess we are a little low"
Me:"then why are we going 60 and why aren't you doing something about it? power on, go around"
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I suspect that forcing him to trim properly will do nothing more than decrease the likelihood of flying at the wrong airspeed and not address the real problem (inadequate correction when off speed). Seems to me there's a basic failure to control the airplane (i.e. he's letting the airplane control him and/or fly itself). I think you need to address that all by itself. Maybe step away from landing practice and try some exercises that develop his ability to make the airplane do his bidding along with some relatively forceful discussions about that specific issue. As long as he's willing to let the plane do something other than what he understands it should be doing he's not likely to master approaches and landings and chances are there's too much going on when trying to land for him to focus on overcoming this basic deficiency.
It's just weird that he knows what he should be doing and still doesn't recognize he isn't getting it done. Hmmm
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Weird to you, but I've met many folks who don't naturally connect the perception of an undesired situation with the application of corrective measures. But that connection can be learned, and once he's able to close that loop consciously he can move on to doing so as a background process. One thing you might find is that he's gotten by in other control situations without conscious participation and never had to operate in that mode. IOW he may be expecting to move from step 2 (conscious incompetence) to step 4 (subconscious competence) without step 3 (conscious competence).
 
Don Jones said:
I think you just described this guy [too smart, too passive]. He is the intellegent type, a doctor actually. I feel he is has convinced himself his abilities are far better than they are. From my perspective he just won't take control of the airplane. He is happy to sit there passively droning along when things are going bad. Bad trait for a pilot!
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Here's my 2¢ without knowing your guy at all.

I suspect the problem is the guy can't multitask or prioritize. He might be concentrating on something insignificant and trying to get it perfect, perhaps the ball is perfectly centered on descent while the airspeed is decaying.

My exercise for this is the simulated pattern at 3000', in a 172. Line up parallel to a road at 4000' and 85-90 kts, abeam our simulated touch down point, carb heat out, power to 1600, 10° flaps, slow to 75, and descend at 500 fpm, at 3,700' turn left 90°, second notch of flaps and slow to 70 kts, make a 90° turn to roll out on the road, 30° flaps, slow to 65 kts and descend at 3100' power to idle, at 3000' hold altitude until it stalls, recover and repeat until it's within tolerances.

Sorry for all the words to describe what you already know. The point is to get it all right at the same time. I find often times the smart ones want to figure out the perfect inputs that work everytime instead of responding to whats going on.

Joe
 
dmccormack said:
Too many instructors expect the same level of rigor and discipline they experienced or wish they'd experienced in the military.

This ain't the Army -- this is private, general aviation VFR flying. Sure the stakes are high, but it's not attack missions.
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Absolutely. We're not training pilots to kill anyone here. We're not trying to get pilots trained while saving the taxpayers' money or keeping them from bending the taxpayers' airplanes. We're training them to fly themselves and their passengers safely. There is absolutely no reason in the world to wash out a student who's willing to learn and fully understands the ramifications of his learning approach and abilities. Give them full disclosure, and if they want to stick with it, keep flying with them.
 
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