How to get my students to stop taxiing with the yoke?#?!?

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FlyingForMe

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FlyingForMe
I have several students who are having a very hard time not steering the airplane on the ground with the yoke.
I'm trying to instill wind correction on the ground, but it seems to quickly turn into them steering the plane around.

Thoughts???
 
worry about wind correction after they have stopped taxiing w/ the yoke.
They sit on their hands and you manage wind correction for a couple lessons.

once they have got that let them know the "Climb into a head wind, dive out and away from a tail wind"

That is how I was taught.
 
How many hours do they have? It takes time.

I don't talk about control position for crosswind taxiing until they have 5 hours or so. I do it myself if necessary. If not necessary and they try to steer with the yoke I yank it in the opposite direction to demonstrate the futility.
 
dmspilot said:
How many hours do they have? It takes time.

I don't talk about control position for crosswind taxiing until they have 5 hours or so. I do it myself if necessary. If not necessary and they try to steer with the yoke I yank it in the opposite direction to demonstrate the futility.
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10+ hours, BTW, your user name threw me off for a second, I'm based near KDSM.
Seems like they are fine hands off then the minute they get their hands back on they start steering.
 
I like to mess with them, right as they start a left turn I'll quickly turn the yoke all the way to the right.

Or just have them sit on their hands for a taxi or two.
 
Smack their hands when they do that.

I went from driving a truck to flying. It took me a couple months to stop looking for the outside mirrors...
 
I just started telling them I was going to buy a tazer and start electro shock therapy on them :).
I am enjoying being an instructor! !!
 
As I recall my CFI made me take my hands off the yoke by crossing my arms or some such. Luckily that's all it took to break me. At that early point, within my first few hours, he was correcting for the wind and managing the mixture on the ground. He always preached not to taxi any faster than a fast walk or slow jog.
 
dmspilot said:
How many hours do they have? It takes time.

I don't talk about control position for crosswind taxiing until they have 5 hours or so. I do it myself if necessary. If not necessary and they try to steer with the yoke I yank it in the opposite direction to demonstrate the futility.
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Same. I introduce crosswind handling when they get a god grasp of taxiing and aren't all over the place.
 
Mine introduced crosswind correction and just wouldn't let me move the yoke unless a change in direction justified it starting on lesson 2, I think. I seem to remember something about a sailboat analogy (the sail doesn't work until we're up in the wind, so just use the rudder).
 
I can certainly see how that happens initially. If it takes more than two or three lessons, than you are getting retarded students. They may be the 60+ hour solo candidates.
 
You're teaching wind correction AND steering to the same person at the same time. Re-evaluate that decision and I'm certain you'll start getting results you like.
 
FWIW I've tried both ways -- teaching them from lesson 1 about proper wind inputs versus waiting until they've had about 5 hours and teaching them then.

I've had a hell of a lot better luck teaching and enforcing the proper inputs from lesson 1. When I've done it the other way I have a hell of a time getting them to remember to position the controls appropriately.

Yes it will take time. Yes you will repeat yourself a lot. That's flight instructing. The end result is better IMO if you teach it fully from lesson 1 and enforce it until it clicks.
 
Shoot... If you're talking strictly wind correction... What ever happened to "climb into & dive away from" ??
 
Side note: the best taxi advice I ever learned 30+ years ago, and will hold true forever... "If the shadows don't hit, the wings won't hit".
 
Patience. Most students come in with years of experience steering with their hands. They can't actually steer on the ground with the yoke so eventually the fact that it doesn't do anything will register with their brains and they'll stop trying. My 2 cents as a low timer, not an instructor.
 
Kritchlow said:
Side note: the best taxi advice I ever learned 30+ years ago, and will hold true forever... "If the shadows don't hit, the wings won't hit".
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I never understood this bit of wisdom. It certainly is NOT true, and what if you are flying on cloudy days?
 
POApontificatingposter: The Earth orbits the sun at an approximate distance of 93 million miles. The Earth itself can be approximated as an oblate spheriod that rotates about it's axis with a 24 hour period. The result is the appearance that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west every day.

POAinsurancelizardlikeposter: No it doesn't and what about cloudy days when the sun doesn't shine?
 
I taxi with my left hand on the dash, and right hand controlling the throttle. I used to be a yoke steerer, big time. I still try during a crosswind landing. Trying to correct that now.
 
I taxi in the TB-10 with my left elbow propping up the left door and my right on the throttle quadrant. For some reason I never acquired the habit of trying to steer with the yoke.

But I have looked for the mirrors once or twice. And the horn :)
 
stevenhmiller said:
I taxi with my left hand on the dash, and right hand controlling the throttle. I used to be a yoke steerer, big time. I still try during a crosswind landing. Trying to correct that now.
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I worked with one student who did the same thing. He came to me second hand, so I suspect that his first instructor used that tactic to reinforce that the yoke is not for steering. That approach had its own problems however, it took a bit to get him to apply the correct wind corrections while taxiing and he would start his takeoff roll the same way.

As far as the question at hand goes, my approach so far varies with the student. Some pick up the concepts faster than others and trying to have them do two things at the same time can lead to a situation where they're doing neither one well.
 
My first couple lessons I was not able to touch the yoke during taxi. After that if I made improper yoke inputs he would say "it's not a car".
 
Every time the airplane starts to turns, ask them two questions - "where's the wind", then "where does the yoke go".

You need to override their trigger from driving a car with a different trigger connected to them turning the airplane with their feet. Whenever they step on the pedal, ask them the first question. After they figure that out, ask them the second so that you connect all three in a chain. After a short time you won't have to ask either.
 
Geico266 said:
I never understood this bit of wisdom. It certainly is NOT true, and what if you are flying on cloudy days?
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It is absolutely true. It is physically impossible for light to shine between two objects that are touching, regardless of sun position. It does not hold true in the other direction. It is possible for shadows to touch and NOT have the wings hit.

If the shadows don't hit, neither will the objects. Simple science.
 
On occasions where I've had problems, we've simply spent 5-10 minutes taxiing around the airport with their hands in their laps.
 
Kritchlow said:
It is absolutely true. It is physically impossible for light to shine between two objects that are touching, regardless of sun position. It does not hold true in the other direction. It is possible for shadows to touch and NOT have the wings hit.

If the shadows don't hit, neither will the objects. Simple science.
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This works, high-wing to high-wing, but if it is low wing to high wing the wings would not touch anyhow.
I teach this as a tool, not as the rule.
 
Whats wrong with yelling at the student? That's what my instructor did with me, and it took all of one lesson to get the idea ingrained in my head that you steer with your legs and the only thing that the yoke is used for is inputs for wind correction. The fact that it was in a Cessna140 helped as well...but still, I think the point stands.
 
jesse said:
FWIW I've tried both ways -- teaching them from lesson 1 about proper wind inputs versus waiting until they've had about 5 hours and teaching them then.

I've had a hell of a lot better luck teaching and enforcing the proper inputs from lesson 1. When I've done it the other way I have a hell of a time getting them to remember to position the controls appropriately.

Yes it will take time. Yes you will repeat yourself a lot. That's flight instructing. The end result is better IMO if you teach it fully from lesson 1 and enforce it until it clicks.
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Jesse,
I've been doing it both ways as well and it doesn't seem to matter, they either get it or they need more help.
I'll try having them sit on their hands or hold the dash and maybe spend some time taxiing as others suggested.
 
vkhosid said:
Whats wrong with yelling at the student? That's what my instructor did with me, and it took all of one lesson to get the idea ingrained in my head that you steer with your legs and the only thing that the yoke is used for is inputs for wind correction. The fact that it was in a Cessna140 helped as well...but still, I think the point stands.
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I'm trying to encourage people to fly and stick with it. I want them to have a mostly positive experience with aviation.
I reserve yelling for the students who argue with me about what I'm telling them to do and how I'm wrong.
Only had to do that once so far, sorry but if you want to blame me and the plane for your lack of control over it at 25 hours, you might get yelled at.
 
FlyingForMe said:
I'm trying to encourage people to fly and stick with it. I want them to have a mostly positive experience with aviation.
I reserve yelling for the students who argue with me about what I'm telling them to do and how I'm wrong.
Only had to do that once so far, sorry but if you want to blame me and the plane for your lack of control over it at 25 hours, you might get yelled at.
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I can't speak for every student out there, but I can tell you for a fact that yelling cemented the importance of thinking about what my actions will do to the plane. Don't get me wrong, I'm talk talking about yelling at the student like a parent yells at a child when they did something wrong. I'm talking about yelling at the student like I would yell at a friend for tossing an already shaken can of beer to me (hopefully this illustrates the difference).

I know it didn't discourage me. In fact, it encouraged me to make a mental note and think/realize that i'm NOT in a car, and that control inputs are noticeably different.
 
I start from the beginning emphasizing that one hand must be on the throttle while taxing, the other holding the yoke correctly for wind. It takes a few lessons but most catch on pretty quick. And if a student doesn't get it after 2-3 lessons it doesn't mean that student is retarded as a prior poster implies. I have had students solo quickly and yes, some at 60+ hours. Those were usually students I picked up from other CFIs.
 
ETres said:
He always preached not to taxi any faster than a fast walk or slow jog.
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I know slightly off topic but mine did as well and maybe its because I'm getting towards old guy age... but sometimes I wonder about the speed I see some people taxi at, especially on a busy GA ramp...
 
I can't criticize for that one or even help...

When I was a student with a couple hours of solos, I entered the pattern and found myself face to face with a glider... I slammed on the brakes... Only thing that happened was the plane Yawed left....

Missed the glider then looked in my rearview mirror to check his position... all that was there was a compass... no mirror...
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I know slightly off topic but mine did as well and maybe its because I'm getting towards old guy age... but sometimes I wonder about the speed I see some people taxi at, especially on a busy GA ramp...
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A plane with a free castering nose wheel needs to taxi above a certain speed for the rudder to be effective. Taxiing too slowly can counter-intuitively lead to more break wear.

Within limits, of course!
 
First time I taxied a plane, the instructor had me put one hand on the glareshield and the other on the throttle, use my feet to move.

Law of primacy is so strong that 23 years later, I go up with a CFI and he tells me to put my hands on the wheel for wind (there really was none), still was doing the glareshield/throttle thing. I don't move the yoke on taxi unless there are high enough winds to warrant it, still keep my hand on the glareshield, other on the throttle the whole way down to the runway.

Takeoff, you bet I use crosswind correction. I think teaching someone where to put their hands might be useful (even if that place isn't on the wheel). One hand on the throttle, the other one (hold this sectional). Something...
 
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