Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
Oh without a doubt. I wouldn't gamble on getting it stopped if there was a playground at the end. I would veer for something else of course risking injury to myself before innocent civilians on the ground.
How to get killed an emergency
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Oh without a doubt. I wouldn't gamble on getting it stopped if there was a playground at the end. I would veer for something else of course risking injury to myself before innocent civilians on the ground.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
That's odd. I thought I was the only one without a clue and it was probably due to advanced geezerism.
I live under a rock. So...yeah.
Oh HELL no. There is not a single GA recip single certified aircraft that lands a that speed. If you regularly land anything like that at those speeds you are introducing exponential risk exposure to every landing. Look up what the maximum certifiable stall speed is for the class and report back. Every time you come across the threshold in a SE Ga recip that falls under those rules, you should be no higher than 10% positive of that figure when you cross the threshold regardless of what it is, Mooney, Cirrus, Cesnumbia, 210 or Bonanza. All this fast landing myth crap is the cause of many landing phase accidents and adds exponentially to their lethality with every knot of excess speed.
Mike5250
Line Up and Wait
The sr20 checklist I have shows 75kts approach, stalls at 56kt which is a little quicker approach compared to a 172sp and about 15kt higher stall speed with full flaps.
The only time the chute will always be the best option in my opinion is over mountains or rough terrain.
I only have about 10 hrs in an sr20 but near gross weight I was able to make full stop landings in about 1500 ft. Just like a mooney if you come in 10kts too fast you're probably doubling your landing distance.
The only time the chute will always be the best option in my opinion is over mountains or rough terrain.
I only have about 10 hrs in an sr20 but near gross weight I was able to make full stop landings in about 1500 ft. Just like a mooney if you come in 10kts too fast you're probably doubling your landing distance.
Landing distance is a poor determinant for crash worthiness. The question of greater interest is what is the terminal survivable perpendicular impact, and what is the slowest point of failure mode for cause of death. I want that to read "blunt force trauma following high speed impact with terrain." What is specifically on the bottom of the list is "burned to death in low speed impact."
Now don't go overboard interpreting that into a cry to arms. I am not afraid to fly in them and appreciate the BRS. However that above mentioned bottom of the list scenario has happened at least twice that I know of and that is once too many for a company to not take action. It is for that unacceptable behavior I neither would buy nor recommend to a client a Cirrus product. If they want one, I would point out my reservations once and let them decide from there. I wouldn't go much further to steer them away. I'm pretty sure I could get a Field Approval on an acceptable mod.
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For rough terrain, it is good to understand your minimum pull altitude because you will want placement control to as close to landing as you can get so you want to know your drift low. Being able to pick between little rocks and big rocks can make a big difference in overall survivability. It would be nice if they developed adequate simulation so that protocol can be better written as well as using it as a last moment brake going into tall trees so you can take advantage of the tree top deceleration and get the chute to drag in the drop going into tall pines and such.
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jmp470
Line Up and Wait
I don't have a problem with the video and realize that everyone is going to react differently in an emergency. I can tell you that my family and I did have an engine emergency in our Cirrus SR 20. It was my wife and 4 month ish daughter in back and me up front. We took off, as we always do at Gross weight. I say we always do, because if you know my wife and her packing skills... if their is a pound left in the plane, she adds a pound of clothing. Anyways, we were headed back from CT to NC at 8500 ft when the #5 exhaust valve popped. Their was a loud pop, followed by a horrific vibration. I immediately pulled power (right hand) then put my MFD to the engine page (right hand), started putting in trim to maintain altitude at first then best glide second (left hand), pressed the PTT button (left hand) told Center I had an engine problem and declared an emergency. Looked first at my MFD for a best glide airfield, why look right down, when I have time. Started a conversation with my wife, told her what was going on, told her the hard deck was 2,000' for the chute pull, all while I was looking for an airport... luckily I was not to far from Atlantic City and their 10,000 foot runway... But even with that... If I felt I wasn't going to make it to the run way or wasn't comfortable with the situation... I was pulling the chute at 2,000. My thoughts... once I have an emergency, that plane has only 1 mission... kill itself saving my life... If I can save the plane fine... but F*that if you think I'm dying for the plane... And at 2,000 a nice looking field can have lots of things on it that can kill you. if you don't think so, go over fly some farms that look smooth as glass from that height... then go walk the terrain!!!
Anyways, everyone has their own heroic thoughts while typing on the forum, If this happens then I will do that... but you only know what you are going to do when you are actually in the situation. I remember talking to tower and asking them for all information, like field length, freqs, etc... screw messing with the MFD or anything else... I was more concerned about flying the plane and talking my wife through what I was doing... In the end, we rented a car to drive home... then I got to fly a RV-10 up to Atlantic City to get my plane and did a flight of two back. Also, because I was able to talk to my wife the whole time... she never got scared and we flew lots more together...
Anyways, everyone has their own heroic thoughts while typing on the forum, If this happens then I will do that... but you only know what you are going to do when you are actually in the situation. I remember talking to tower and asking them for all information, like field length, freqs, etc... screw messing with the MFD or anything else... I was more concerned about flying the plane and talking my wife through what I was doing... In the end, we rented a car to drive home... then I got to fly a RV-10 up to Atlantic City to get my plane and did a flight of two back. Also, because I was able to talk to my wife the whole time... she never got scared and we flew lots more together...
Two factors should also be considered:
1. The 800 foot per minute descent rate assumes the plane is still flying and not in a stalled condition. If it stalls, the rate is going to be a lot faster than 1800 feet per minute of the Cirrus with the chute deployed.
2. If the plane is not stalled, given a stall speed of 49 knots, that still is a horizontal speed of 4962-ish feet per minute. If you fly into the side of a tree or building, the horizontal speed could kill you, even if the vertical speed is less.
I am not saying your conclusion is wrong. I just note that it's not quite as simple as comparing descent rates.
spiderweb
Final Approach
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Ben
Question: what do you mean it popped? I'm trying to picture that. Also, did you ever find out why it happened?
Thanks.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
Sorry I meant approach not landing. I was just thinking of how much ground is covered on approach to a 1000' strip.
jmp470
Line Up and Wait
Ben, it was the #5 exhaust. Simple find and fix on the ground. But interesting to experience in the air. I sent the exhaust out to Dawley aviation to get welded. I remember it cost more to ship than to fix!!!
Well done and well thought out. I like that you assign deck altitude watch to your wife. One thing I'll tell you from experience with engines, you don't necessarily want to shut the throttle all the way down because it may not be the smoothest/least destructive level, and you would be giving up distance. If you can keep power longer SE it extends your options. That's the sucky thing about SE failures is they typically cost an engine to exhaustion to get the best service.
spiderweb
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Ben
What do you mean?
With a twin, I have the option to feather an engine prior to destructive failure. I did this 3 times in 10 years owning my Travel Air allowing for sub AMU repairs rather than new engines.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Vs a single like the SB2C my grand pappy was it the back of that got an oil line cut by flak and they had to push it to failure and glide for home.
spiderweb
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That's kind of scary that you would have had -three- engine failures in ten years! Am I reading this wrong?
matthammer
Pre-takeoff checklist
Clark1961
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Obviously he was good at engine failures!
More likely he shut them down as a precaution rather than necessity. In other words, not the same as us single engine drivers would call a failure. Add to that he perhaps was putting a lot of hours on the aircraft...
dcmoser
Pre-Flight
I actually thought this video was enlightening. I keep an emergency checklist at the top of my lists in the knee pocket. I imagine everyone has a little different procedure they're comfortable with. Interesting to see other views and ideas. And I agree, the chute lever was discussed as an option of last resort. Didn't really see a problem with this video, but then again, I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night either.....
I had 3 oil lines fail. There are very few immediate catastrophic engine failures from major parts, after the first few hundred hours it's almost unheard of. It's mostly the small stuff and accessories that fail.
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L.Adamson
Pre-takeoff checklist
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If worse went to worst, in planned or unplanned IMC conditions (which still happens); I'd much prefer SVT, to verify that I am, or am not about to hit rising terrain. Personally, I prefer knowing these things, since it's now very real and possible. Yes, it's just like a home computer game/sim, with a real life topography database. It's a perfect verification for IFR, or an "actual" tool to keep you from feeling like a bug on a windshield. Of course, you probably wouldn't feel a thing. I doubt the bugs do, either.
L.Adamson
rottydaddy
En-Route
First of all, I can't take this guy seriously because he sounds just like the guy who narrated the hilarious "honey badger" spoof video.
But let's see what he's got.... after all he is a CFI....
New names for "aviate, navigate, communicate".... how nice for him. But it's nothing new, and isn't more clear, especially when he leaves out his position and altitude when he makes his mayday call.Already aquawking and talking? OK, I'll buy taht... but "who, where, what" should be automatic, so you will spit it out when not already "with" a controller.
After all that crap about his three Ps, he lays T-DODAR on us... innapropriate for most light GA flying, and another omission:after harping about TIME and showing how to come up with a "hard deck" for 'chute deployment, he neglects to apply that to estimating time before that altitude. OK, so maybe the altitude is more important... but what does it have to do with time?
I was OK with the display use at first, although a good look around would be my first thing.... but when he's twiddling to call up an emergency checklist page he lost me. That might be Ok when very high and no hazardous onboard condition, but I prefer memorized emergency lists and regular drills, like blindfolded when sitting on the ground. And if the emergency includes dark displays, this guy will be lost.
Code:
New names for "aviate, navigate, communicate".... how nice for him. But it's nothing new, and isn't more clear, especially when he leaves out his position and altitude when he makes his mayday call.Already aquawking and talking? OK, I'll buy taht... but "who, where, what" should be automatic, so you will spit it out when not already "with" a controller.
After all that crap about his three Ps, he lays T-DODAR on us... innapropriate for most light GA flying, and another omission:after harping about TIME and showing how to come up with a "hard deck" for 'chute deployment, he neglects to apply that to estimating time before that altitude. OK, so maybe the altitude is more important... but what does it have to do with time?
I was OK with the display use at first, although a good look around would be my first thing.... but when he's twiddling to call up an emergency checklist page he lost me. That might be Ok when very high and no hazardous onboard condition, but I prefer memorized emergency lists and regular drills, like blindfolded when sitting on the ground. And if the emergency includes dark displays, this guy will be lost.
It seems to me that he checked for nearest airport, realized he couldn't make it, and then decided to look around rather than blindly glide forward. While it's great to constantly look around and say "what if," I'm not going to fault him for taking a second look around.
The video is aimed at Cirrus pilots and people with similar avionics. It makes sense to use what is available to you although I might not agree with everything in the video. As an example, I hate seeing a guy kill his passengers by VFR flight into IMC when he has a perfectly good autopilot that could fly him out. Many people wind up in planes with more capability than the one they learned in but don't learn how to use what the new plane has.
Steve Wilson is a highly biased Cessna dealer. I would take his blog comments with many grains of salt. As for having your son land the plane, all I know is that a Cirrus pilot died trying to land in what looked like a flat field. The record for BRS activations, when done within parameters, is excellent.
Ilan cracked a vertebre. He was out of the hospital a couple of weeks later. BRS suspects he came down faster than normal since he had his engine running and may have been spilling air from the canopy. Ilan was trying to steer the plane under canopy which BRS claims is ineffective.
Yes, but you are probably a better pilot than most. I was surprised how, when practicing engine outs recently, I carried way too much energy into the landing. My slips weren't as effective as I had imagined and I needed to practice to get better speed bleed.
It has happened multiple times in Cessnas. As for Cirrus I know of one death caused by post crash fire but only one. Do you know of others? That said, there have been no post crash fires when coming down under canopy.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
The Helldiver was a beast. Bet your grandfather had some cool stories to tell.
Indeed he did
alfadog
Final Approach
Here is what "Ilan" says:
"First, my back was broken by the impact of crashing into the water."
"When all the test results were in, the ER doctor came in and told me that my back was broken, and that the orthopedist would be there shortly to explain further."
Guess he thought it was bigger deal.
http://www.avweb.com/news/features/190126-1.html
dell30rb
Final Approach
Yeah, but while too broad to be accurate, there is a kernel of truth there. If you are single engine w/ failure and you are over terrain that doesn't support a landing, ie big rocks, you pull or die. If you don't have the option to pull, well, there's only one option left. That's why I've been flying twins for 20 years.
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alfadog
Final Approach
I tend to cut folks that just inexplicably (at the moment) blacked out while flying and woke up in a redline unusual attitude a bit more slack.
For all he knew the next seizure might be seconds away and this is his one chance to pull the chute and save his life. He does not mention that but it is a possiblity. This is one instance that I will refrain from armchair quarterbacking and I certainly would not denigrate his intelligence.
Imagine the confusion and the stress level. This was not a little "oops" moment or even an engine-out scenario with a fully functioning pilot. When you cannot even trust yourself to remain conscious all bets regarding getting safely to the ground are off.
dell30rb
Final Approach
I understand but his advice to readers was "don't fly a single engine airplane without a parachute". Probably 95 percent of readers fly single engine airplanes without parachutes.
There are times where you could be overflying terrain and an engine failure would mean certain death. At night over the mountains and out of gliding distance of an airport would be one. Possibly flying in low IFR or flying IFR at night with a low ceiling, again out of gliding distance of an airport. You can utilize the plane a lot and still avoid these scenarios. Remember in the critical climb to 800agl or whatever you need for 'the impossible turn' the cirrus chute will do you no good.
Of course there are exceptions to 'certain death', in fact none of those scenarios are even close to certain death. A guy in our club ran a warrior out of fuel about 9 months ago at night, in IMC with 600 foot ceilings and went into the trees. He walked away...
http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/efwyknjpdugwo2555xznm5uy1/I04092012120000.pdf
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alfadog
Final Approach
Oh. Well there are plenty of folks here that take the position that you should, if you can afford it, pack your airplane with all the latest life-saving gadgetry. I do not fit in that category but those that feel that way are entitled to. Doesn't make them stupid. From that point of view, you should never fly without a parachute.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Oh, I think parachutes are great, i'd have one if I could afford it. But I wouldn't decline an offer for a ride in my buddy's skylane because it was a parachute lacking deathtrap.
alfadog
Final Approach
I know, I know. Same here. Some folk like things as safe as possible. No-one gets out this life alive, anyway.
But you know what, a BRS is probably one of the most unobtrusive safety features you can have in an airplane. Like an ELT. It is not tight around your chest, bothering you with "terrain" warnings when you are instructed to transit KFLL Class Charlie along the coast and at or below 500', or distracting you with computer-game graphics when you should be looking out the window.
It just sits in its little tube and if you want to ignore it then go ahead. It is easy to ignore. Like my kid (joke).
dell30rb
Final Approach
Or the voices in my head!
steingar
Taxi to Parking
The BRS has to be repacked every what, 10 years? Costs about $15K? Thus it's $1.5K/year worth of unobtrusive. That is my aircraft's annual. That's 30 hours of flying. That is something less than unobtrusive. And for questionable safety value.
alfadog
Final Approach
alfadog
Final Approach
Some folks have different considerations about money than I, or, I imagine, you. The $50/hour is prolly worth it to them to know that they are taking that extra step.
dell30rb
Final Approach
And the statistics say they would be much safer in a cherokee, mooney or skyhawk, all aircraft without parachutes.
alfadog
Final Approach
Cost is about $10K if you have a G1 and probably more like $8K for a G2/G3 but those are rough numbers. That said, it is a sizable expense that needs to be budgeted.