How to fail a checkride.

falconkidding said:
You can "ignore" the standard and still follow it. It just says applicant demonstrates the ability to clear the area. DPE could say hey I know you looked for traffic but remember lets do clearing turns as well. Applicant will mentally freak out and not forget it again. What good does it do to fail someone and say hey we're gonna land fill out some paper work then climb back up and do a clearing turn.

Same if someone lands slightly long on a short field or slightly firm on a soft. You say hey we'll count that as your normal landing make this next one count. Not saying you give out ppls but if someones done every other task to standard passed the knowledge part and brain farts on something use judgement and work something out the ACS gives examiners the room to do that.
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One of the aspects of a checkride is being able to do things right at the correct time. If you can’t remember to do the proscribed clearing procedure before a maneuver, that’s a problem. If a pilot doesn’t use judgement and choose to go around if the short field landing is too long or the soft field landing isn’t working, that’s a problem.

Both of those are legit busts. The PTS ACS requires certain maneuvers, and that they all be done to standard. My personal opinion is that clearing turns are over rated, but allowing oneself to botch a short or soft landing instead of going around is also real-world judgement issue in addition to a real-world safety issue. There are definitely places where the PTS/ACS deviates from the real world, but it’s the standard that an applicant has agreed to by taking a checkride.
 
What happens if the student forgets to bring the cash for the check ride.???
 
tawood said:
@IK04 , @Kritchlow , did either of you read the Chief Counsel's opinions I posted above? I'm not saying I agree with his opinions, but you two seem to have your own (other) interpretations...
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No, I did not. But I will. That said, the airlines (none that I know of) even allow circling approaches.
My A320 type has a limitation against circling actually.
 
A true circling aporiach is not a VFR pattern.

That said, I will read tawoods links to better educate myself.
 
I'm with Kritchlow! I don't care what the Chief Counsel "thinks" the rule says, circling approaches are inherently so risky the airlines mostly prohibit them. But, as somebody who has probably shot more in one day than some airline pilots have done in a career, they're safe enough as long as you don't pile on more and more imaginary restrictions like armchair-bound lawyers seem wont to do. For my money, the letter to Collins grants enough wiggle room to forget the previous letters. The rule says:

§91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.​

Instrument approaches are regulatory under Part 97, ergo, circling is "authorized and required." There's plenty of guidance how to do it safely, and none of it specifies Class G is an exception.

If that isn't enough, Lorain County Airport near Cleveland has a Part 93 right hand pattern which was the subject of a dispute about IFR aircraft circling low over the Oberlin Conservatory (they don't like airplane noises, not music to them). The judge came down on the side of IFR pilots and said Part 93 only applies to VFR aircraft there. Unfortunately, the lawyers here will need to research that for themselves. I did it by phone many years ago and have no written proof. :(
 
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dtuuri said:
There's plenty of guidance how to do it safely, and none of it specifies Class G is an exception.
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Safe and illegal is still illegal, and you didn't read far enough since it's not specific to Class G.
 
Zeldman said:
What happens if the student forgets to bring the cash for the check ride.???
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I seem to recall my last DPE saying something to the effect of "this check ride starts when you hand me the check (or cash)".

I guess that's why they call it a "check ride".
 
dtuuri said:
I'm with Kritchlow! I don't care what the Chief Counsel "thinks" the rule says, circling approaches are inherently so risky the airlines mostly prohibit them. But, as somebody who has probably shot more in one day than some airline pilots have done in a career, they're safe enough as long as you don't pile on more and more imaginary restrictions like armchair lawyers seem wont to do. For my money, the letter to Collins grants enough wiggle room to forget the previous letters. The rule says:

§91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.​

Instrument approaches are regulatory under Part 95, ergo, circling is "authorized and required." There's plenty of guidance how to do it safely, and none of it specifies Class G is an exception.

If that isn't enough, Lorain county Airport near Cleveland has a Part 93 right hand pattern which was the subject of a dispute about IFR aircraft circling low over the Oberlin Conservatory (they don't like airplane noises, not music to them). The judge came down on the side of IFR pilots and said Part 93 only applies to VFR aircraft there. Unfortunately, the lawyers here will need to research that for themselves. I did it by phone many years ago and have no written proof. :(
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“Authorized and required” alone will almost certainly not save you from an enforcement action sanction. If it could, it would have saved Dibble and Rivard. But it didn’t.

Admittedly, I can’t speak to the practicalities if actually flying them on a regular basis, because I just don’t have that kind of experience.
 
dtuuri said:
What is "it's"?
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The topic we are discussing.

PPC1052 said:
I’m curious too, given that 14 CFR 126 specifically applies only to airports in class g airspace without a tower.
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Suggest you read 91.127 and every regulation after that until you realize why your statement is incorrect.
 
Circling is protected on all sides.
By your definition if an Alpha approach comes in from the right it’s wrong to adjust and line up because that would be a right base.

Anyone that has done it for real will have a different take on that one.

Done this as a pro for 30 years without issue.
All the airspace is protected, and it will be noted that “circling NE prohibited” if need be.
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Yep. I have been flying, training, examining and writing flight training manuals as a military and civilian airplane and helicopter pilot since the Seventies.
I have found very few pilots actually have experience with circling approaches to landings. It is not a great question to ask on an oral exam, unless you want some kind of rote answer the guy read somewhere...
 
PPC1052 said:
“Authorized and required” alone will almost certainly not save you from an enforcement action sanction. If it could, it would have saved Dibble and Rivard. But it didn’t.

Admittedly, I can’t speak to the practicalities if actually flying them on a regular basis, because I just don’t have that kind of experience.
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I think when an airport is VFR, traffic rules apply. Practice IFR approaches and IFR approaches like Dibble and Rivard (one of which I've not been able to read, I think) were under VFR conditions.

The Collins letter says, "The phrase 'authorized or required' itself does not give pilots the discretion to deviate from §91.126." When they talk about "pilots", I infer they mean ALL pilots, VFR and IFR. In other words, VFR conditions for both types present. But when only one IFR pilot is trying to land, in the dark, turbulent, foggy night--Part 97 would be my parachute and damned be the Chief Counsel's previous interpretations.
 
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dmspilot said:
Safe and illegal is still illegal, and you didn't read far enough since it's not specific to Class G.
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Well, I'm still not sure what you think I didn't read, but let me take the opportunity to agree with whoever said (DPE or CFI) to overfly the airport first, then circle. Excellent advice! In fact, I'm quite sure the Lear 45 at KTEB wouldn't have crashed in a parking lot had they done just that. Since TEB has a tower, though, permission would have to be granted first. Breaking it off early for a circle at an unfamiliar airport is an invitation for all kinds of miscalculations.
 
IK04 said:
Yep. I have been flying, training, examining and writing flight training manuals as a military and civilian airplane and helicopter pilot since the Seventies.
I have found very few pilots actually have experience with circling approaches to landings. It is not a great question to ask on an oral exam, unless you want some kind of rote answer the guy read somewhere...
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The current ASEL Instrument ACS requires the applicants to demonstrate a circling approach. Which means in most cases you are going to be doing it in VFR conditions. Ideally you could do this to an airport where the approach is not lined up with the runway and the circling approach does not require a full course reversal (to land the opposite runway). But in practice I think most of the time on a check ride it means you will have to approach the opposite runway and then perform a course reversal to land. Flying the circling approach in VFR conditions opposite the traffic pattern would seem like a bad idea. I only saw an applicant do this on a practice check ride, I haven’t seen anyone actually fail a check ride for this.

Brian
 
brcase said:
But in practice I think most of the time on a check ride it means you will have to approach the opposite runway and then perform a course reversal to land. Flying the circling approach in VFR conditions opposite the traffic pattern would seem like a bad idea.
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Yeah, but... you could practice them at a controlled field with ATC permission. Or, you can do like everybody else and be real careful at non-controlled, quiet little airports and screw the Chief Counsel. It would be a good idea to discuss this with the DPE before departure.
 
dmspilot said:
Suggest you read 91.127 and every regulation after that until you realize why your statement is incorrect.
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Let me quote the reg:

(b)Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
​
So, I fail to see the error in what I said. I suppose you are referring to the provisions in 91.127 - 91.131 that incorporate by reference 126. That's certainly a reasonable point. But the requirements in paragraph (b) specifically limits itself to Class G airspace. Now, to be sure, I agree that aircraft in Class E airspace have to follow the traffic pattern. So, whether that's by the incorporation clause in 127(a) or the directive to follow the traffic pattern in 127(b) may be a bit of semantics, and not worth fighting about. And, as I said above, the relevant distinction is not whether the plane is IFR or VFR, but whether the airport has an operating tower.
 
PPC1052 said:
Let me quote the reg:

(b)Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
​
So, I fail to see the error in what I said. I suppose you are referring to the provisions in 91.127 - 91.131 that incorporate by reference 126. That's certainly a reasonable point. But the requirements in paragraph (b) specifically limits itself to Class G airspace. Now, to be sure, I agree that aircraft in Class E airspace have to follow the traffic pattern. So, whether that's by the incorporation clause in 127(a) or the directive to follow the traffic pattern in 127(b) may be a bit of semantics, and not worth fighting about. And, as I said above, the relevant distinction is not whether the plane is IFR or VFR, but whether the airport has an operating tower.
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It does not "specifically limit itself to Class G airspace". Read 91.127(a), 91.129(a), 91.130(a), and 91.131(a). The rule applies to all airports except where 91.129(a), 130(a), and 131(a) grant exceptions.

In other words, every airport in a more restrictive class of airspace requires following the rules of all the airspace that comes before it.

91.127(b) is irrelevant because it is about departures, not arrivals.
 
@dmspilot:
dtuuri said:
Instrument approaches are regulatory under Part 95, ergo, circling is "authorized and required." There's plenty of guidance how to do it safely, and none of it specifies Class G is an exception.
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The "it" I was referring to is the circling approach maneuver guidance in the AIM and other FAA handbooks. I would think the authors would certainly mention that the guidance did not apply to airports in Class G airspace due to Part 91.126, if it really did, and that only the turns consistent with that Part applied. But they don't.

dmspilot said:
Safe and illegal is still illegal, and you didn't read far enough since it's not specific to Class G.
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I think your "it's" refers to Part 91.126 required turns, not the circling guidance in the AIM, right? Since the Chief Counsel is on record in regard to deviation from that rule, see Collins, "Such deviation must be"authorized or required" by the approach guidelines of a specific airport or by another FAA regulation," it would seem a Part 97 SIAP would apply-- at a towered airport ATC can "authorize" the deviation and at non-towered airports under IFR conditions deviation could be "required". Under VFR at non-towered airports deviation would not be "required".
 
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When I took my check ride, the DPE told me to go into slow flight and then had me do maneuvers. She said if the stall horn stop sounding I would fail. During my last flight review, the CFI said he should never hear the stall horn during my slow flight maneuvering. While I do get nervous during slow flight, I know from my heck ride that the horn is an indication of impending stall and not something to fear.
 
brcase said:
Private/commercial:
Not know how to calculate a wind correction angle, or even explain what a wind correction angle is.
Not be able to accurately identify the type of airspace you are flying in (Class E vs G)
Identify the wrong town as your checkpoint.
Spin the airplane during Stall demonstration
Enter Class C airspace before establishing communication with approach.
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Cross the hold short line with an aircraft on final... I was the guy on final, working on my commercial multi, when a 172 did this. I grabbed a handful of throttle in preparation for a go-around, but the 172 stopped. I took my Comm-AMEL checkride with the same examiner the next day, he said the applicant complained that I hadn't made any traffic calls (I did, and the DPE heard them) but that doesn't particularly matter.

BTW, I couldn't tell that the 172 was actually across the line. This was in Cadillac, MI in the winter, and piles of snow obscured the view of the taxiway from final approach. It kinda looked like a 172 with no landing gear floating on top of the snow. :)

Instrument:
Identify the step down fix wrong and descend early on the approach
Identify the step down fix wrong and descend early on the approach (I know 2 applicants that have done this)
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Make it three. I did that. Last approach of the checkride was an ILS, DPE failed Nav1 just as I was getting the final clearance (vectors to final, so just shy of the FAF), and I had no GS on Nav2 in that plane. Intercepted the localizer, but my brain was still thinking "maintain 2700 until established" so once I was established inbound on the localizer, I began to descend and got below the FAF altitude prior to the FAF. Dumb mistake, but an easy one to make. Having the DPE tell me I flew to ATP standards until then was no comfort at that point!

I thought I told this story here before, and found another similar thread you may want to check out, though it's specifically about instrument rides: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/how-i-almost-did-fail-the-checkride-because.57114/
 
tawood said:
My instrument instructor, and my DPE, actually were at odds on this one on circling approaches...My instructor said "Always do left hand pattern for an airport with left hand pattern"...my DPE was critical of this, and said "During low visibility, ALWAYS overfly your runway before circling, so a right hand pattern will sometimes be appropriate".
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Your CFI was right. VFR or IFR, you should follow the standard traffic pattern rules unless otherwise specified. You never know when some yahoo is out there flying around the airport at TPA (no matter how illegal). When circling, you must stay in visual contact with the runway environment at all times, until you are in a position to land using normal procedures. "Normal" in context would exclude extreme bank angles and descent rates. If you can't, then you are required to go missed.
 
If it is required to circle in the direction of the local traffic pattern, why is that information not on the government approach plates? Or at least noted somewhere on the plate? Seem to be setting pilots up to fail.
 
SbestCFII said:
Your CFI was right. VFR or IFR, you should follow the standard traffic pattern rules unless otherwise specified. You never know when some yahoo is out there flying around the airport at TPA (no matter how illegal). When circling, you must stay in visual contact with the runway environment at all times, until you are in a position to land using normal procedures. "Normal" in context would exclude extreme bank angles and descent rates. If you can't, then you are required to go missed.
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But you see, most of the time you're going to be well below TPA when you're on a circling approach, and most mid-airs near airports seem to be one plane descending into another. It seems like flying the same traffic pattern at a different altitude (circling mins) is a recipe for exactly that type of disaster.
 
SbestCFII said:
You never know when some yahoo is out there flying around the airport at TPA (no matter how illegal).
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Right, like pipeline patrol and scud-runners. So, why would you expect that those reprobates would only make Part 91.126 turns too? You pays your money and you takes your chances. I note that the seasoned pros here are aghast at this new-found notion, at least during real inclement weather. Then, overheading the runway before circling should be the teaching point, not making VFR-conformant turns.
 
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Hunt-man said:
If it is required to circle in the direction of the local traffic pattern, why is that information not on the government approach plates? Or at least noted somewhere on the plate? Seem to be setting pilots up to fail.
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I think it's not on the plates because the mandatory rules about the direction of flight in the traffic pattern is knowledge at the student pilot level. And yes, I know many instrument pilot think it doesn't apply to them. Another big one is this area is thinking flying an instrument approach gives you priority over VFR traffic (a pretty similar question),p.

It's not the only "gotcha" where you have to know basic flight rules at the instrument level. Years ago, I saw an instrument oral almost stop at the very first question, which was about whether an IFR clearance was required to depart from a Class D Airport when the ceiling is less than 1000 feet. The DOE in that one asked the question 6 different ways and finally the light came in.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But you see, most of the time you're going to be well below TPA when you're on a circling approach, and most mid-airs near airports seem to be one plane descending into another. It seems like flying the same traffic pattern at a different altitude (circling mins) is a recipe for exactly that type of disaster.
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Really? Coming in on a circling approach in VFR conditions you are going to fly below the traffic pattern most of the time? Sounds like a particularly bad idea.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really? Coming in on a circling approach in VFR conditions you are going to fly below the traffic pattern most of the time? Sounds like a particularly bad idea.
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Are circling mins no longer circling mins if the weather is higher than circling mins?
 
Hacker said:
Are circling mins no longer circling mins if the weather is higher than circling mins?
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They are still circling mins. But the word is "minimums" not "maximums". The lowest we are permitted go until we meet the requirements of 91.175(c).
 
Hunt-man said:
If it is required to circle in the direction of the local traffic pattern, why is that information not on the government approach plates? Or at least noted somewhere on the plate? Seem to be setting pilots up to fail.
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The scenario that I think most of these folks are yacking about is when you are circling under vfr conditions. Then you need to worry about meshing with vfr traffic. That’s not new. I think some are worrying about meshing with vfr traffic when they are doing an approach to minimums. Well that’s IFR weather. Then you don’t have any trafficpaytern to worry about. Youre already below the published altitude. At that point it’s all an IFR procedure. Traffic pattern be damned.

Anyone that comes along with a letter from some retard lawyer working for the government that claims I’m doing it wrong will be ignored.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The scenario that I think most of these folks are yacking about is when you are circling under vfr conditions. Then you need to worry about meshing with vfr traffic. That’s not new. I think some are worrying about meshing with vfr traffic when they are doing an approach to minimums. Well that’s IFR weather. Then you don’t have any trafficpaytern to worry about. Youre already below the published altitude. At that point it’s all an IFR procedure. Traffic pattern be damned.

Anyone that comes along with a letter from some retard lawyer working for the government that claims I’m doing it wrong will be ignored.
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The direction of turns is a flight rule, not a visual flight rule. It might be better argue that the rule is retarded, but the interpretation is not.
 
dmspilot said:
The direction of turns is a flight rule, not a visual flight rule. It might be better argue that the rule is retarded, but the interpretation is not.
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At minimum weather for an approach I’m complying with the approach procedures and common sense safety of flight. I would rather be alive and defending my decision than dead and in compliance with an attorneys interpretation. When you go fly you can make decisions based on whatever criteria you deem appropriate. I’ll do the same.
 
Kritchlow said:
Clearly you are a book person, and not an actual “doing it” person.

Circling is protected on all sides.
By your definition if an Alpha approach comes in from the right it’s wrong to adjust and line up because that would be a right base.

Anyone that has done it for real will have a different take on that one.

Done this as a pro for 30 years without issue.
All the airspace is protected, and it will be noted that “circling NE prohibited” if need be.
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30 years ago we all did the right turn, but the FAA Chief Council wrote an opinion saying nah baby nah.

91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

http://www.ifr-magazine.com/issues/33_8/features/Which-Way-to-Turn_1277-1.html
 
On the ride prior to my instrument checkride, the instructor failed me on a circling approach for climbing up 150 feet from circling minimums which were 500+ feet below TPA. The weather was CAVU, it was a towered field with multiple runways and there was an aircraft on the opposite side of the runway from me that the tower said would be landing first. As I was looking for the other aircraft on the other side, I drifted 150 above MDA and failed the ride. I told him, to no avail, that had this been a real instrument approach with weather at mins, I wouldn't need to be watching for traffic (in the clouds) I was told to follow. The ACS says applicant must maintain MDA -0 to plus 100 feet until in a position to land normally. I had to repeat the ride, actually just a circle to land, with the chief instructor. I did fine on the actual checkride.
 
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Clip4 said:
30 years ago we all did the right turn, but the FAA Chief Council wrote an opinion saying nah baby nah.

91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace...
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and
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My home airfield has right traffic to runway 17. It's annotated on the sectional and in the chart supplement as right traffic to 17. There are no "approved light signals or visual markings" indicating right traffic. So does anyone who chooses to do left traffic to 17, contrary to the "published" right traffic stipulation, have a legitimate defense since no approved light signals or visual markings are installed?
 
Witmo said:
My home airfield has right traffic to runway 17. It's annotated on the sectional and in the chart supplement as right traffic to 17. There are no "approved light signals or visual markings" indicating right traffic. So does anyone who chooses to do left traffic to 17, contrary to the "published" right traffic stipulation, have a legitimate defense since no approved light signals or visual markings are installed?
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What is your home field?
 
Witmo said:
My home airfield has right traffic to runway 17. It's annotated on the sectional and in the chart supplement as right traffic to 17. There are no "approved light signals or visual markings" indicating right traffic. So does anyone who chooses to do left traffic to 17, contrary to the "published" right traffic stipulation, have a legitimate defense since no approved light signals or visual markings are installed?
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Was this information available before flight? (91.103)
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think it's not on the plates because the mandatory rules about the direction of flight in the traffic pattern is knowledge at the student pilot level. And yes, I know many instrument pilot think it doesn't apply to them. Another big one is this area is thinking flying an instrument approach gives you priority over VFR traffic (a pretty similar question),p.

It's not the only "gotcha" where you have to know basic flight rules at the instrument level. Years ago, I saw an instrument oral almost stop at the very first question, which was about whether an IFR clearance was required to depart from a Class D Airport when the ceiling is less than 1000 feet. The DOE in that one asked the question 6 different ways and finally the light came in.
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If the FAA is going to apply the traffic pattern rule to actual IFR circling procedures, then the correct direction to circle should be published on the plate. Pilots don't always fly into the same airport everyday and that is a basic fact. If they are applying it to VFR conditions, I get it and that makes sense, but it still needs to be on the plate. We don't always get all the time we want to prepare for an approach. And with over 4000 hours of no autopilot flying under my belt, it is hard to look for info that isn't on the plate while IMC.

The other point that no one has mentioned yet, is that if you are circling, it is usually best to put the airport on the side the pilot is on. Not everyone is PIC in the left seat all the time.
 
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