How to do an unnecessary procedure turn?

[midlifeflyer]

As soon as you begin the turn over

Neither pilots, nor chart designers, decide on course reversals. The procedures designers in OKC develop the procedures, then prescribe it on an official FAR 97 form, which is noticed in the federal register as an amendment to Part 97.

Attached are the two regulatory source documents for 3B4. Note that the RNAV procedure has three IAFs and one feeder fix (PSM). Any of these four fixes are fixes from which the approach may commence. Note on the VOR-A source there are no terminal routes so Line 1 controls. (PSM-procedure turn-PSM, etc.) Line 1 makes PSM the sole IAF, Line 3 makes PSM the FAF.

You are right, of course. Brain fart. I meant "procedure" designers, not the guys, whether FAA, Jepp, Garmin, ForeFlight, WingX, or the guys in the back room of "Joes' Chart Emporium" who use the data fro the official forms to create the documents and program the devices we generally use in-cockpit.

 

[jaybee]

been that way since ive been rated, 2012

 

[PPC1052]

The approach plates should name the designer. They are kind of like artists. Then we could invite them to come share their thoughts in our threads when we discuss their work.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Well, I stand corrected! Is this a (relatively) new interpretation, or did I have it wrong for all these years?

Assuming I understand your question, it's been like this in the ~25 years I've been instrument rated. Charts can be depicted differently, but it's just your basic descend to the altitude on a published segment application.

On the one we've been discussing, you may descend to 3,000 once outbound from the VOR and down to 1500, when inbound. That's what it says.



OTOH, in this one, it says you may descend to 2500 outbound and remain at that altitude until you cross the VOR inbound.

 

[MauleSkinner]

....if you are coming from the south and then you turn to the right after station passage, you are essentially entering the published hold. Maybe stated a little differently, is the reason you can descend related to the protected area for the published hold on the south side of the radial?

If you turn to the right coming from the south, you're protected because you're on the barbed side of the procedure turn. The published hold has nothing to do with the course reversal...even if it wasn't there, a holding pattern course reversal is acceptable when the barbed course reversal is published.

Of course the reverse is not true...if the course reversal is published as a holding pattern (or a teardrop), that's the type of reversal you must fly.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Well, I stand corrected! Is this a (relatively) new interpretation, or did I have it wrong for all these years?

It was that way in 1988 when I got my instrument rating.

Keep in mind that one of the biggest lies in aviation is an instructor saying, "I'll teach you everything you need to know about...." Unless you're keeping that instructor employed full time for a couple of years, he can't teach you everything you need to know about instrument flying. That means we, as pilots, need to study on our own.

Which, of course, is something that NONE of us do adequately...and even when we do study, the information is so boring that we miss a lot of it. That's one of the reasons we're here, participating in threads like this. After 35 years and 13,000 hours, I'm still learning.

 

[FastEddieB]

On the one we've been discussing, you may descend to 3,000 once outbound from the VOR and down to 1500, when inbound. That's what it says.

View attachment 62867

Yep. That much is clear. I just always thought you had to be both outbound AND on course, i.e. established on a “segment”.

But per the above-linked document, apparently not.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yep. That much is clear. I just always thought you had to be both outbound AND on course, i.e. established on a “segment”.

But per the above-linked document, apparently not.

On the proper side of the barbed course, you ARE established on a segment.

 

[FastEddieB]

On the proper side of the barbed course, you ARE established on a segment.

I think we used to interpret a “segment” as literally a line on a chart.

But no point in justifying what is obviously now a mistaken assumption.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yep. That much is clear. I just always thought you had to be both outbound AND on course, i.e. established on a “segment”.

But per the above-linked document, apparently not.

as @MauleSkinner said, there's no real "on course" requirement. To the extent you want to think in terms of one, you are "on course on a published segment" when you are outbound on the turning side of the procedure, even if you never intercept the inbound course outbound or fly the barb as published. It's just like being in a TAA in a more modern approach. All those semi and quarter circles are "on a published segment" and "on course."

 

[MauleSkinner]

I think we used to interpret a “segment” as literally a line on a chart.

But no point in justifying what is obviously now a mistaken assumption.

In this case, the segment includes leaving the line to reverse course.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think we used to interpret a “segment” as literally a line on a chart.

But no point in justifying what is obviously now a mistaken assumption.

No need, but useful. Many are initially taught to fly barbed PTs by tracking the inbound course outbound and flying the courses depicted on the barb. Plus, you do need to be on certain lines, such as the transition routes, feeders, airways, and the final approach course. So it's pretty easy to come away with the impression that "on a published segment" is always "tracking a published line," even in situations where the "published segment" is an area.

 

[aterpster]

On the proper side of the barbed course, you ARE established on a segment.

It's the initial approach course reversal segment. Sort of like those huge TAA areas are feeder segments.

 

[aterpster]

Well, I stand corrected! Is this a (relatively) new interpretation, or did I have it wrong for all these years?

Nope. The procedure turn design has had an entry zone and a maneuvering zone since the inception of TERPs. They meld into one descent area unless there is a higher obstacle in the entry zone. zone=area.

What came along later, perhaps 15 years ago, is three sizes of procedure turn zones/areas, depending upon altitude.

 

[jaybee]

On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45° type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot (limited by the charted remain within XX NM distance). Some of the options are the 45° procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop procedure turn, or the 80° procedure turn, or the 80° 260° course reversal. Racetrack entries should be conducted on the maneuvering side where the majority of protected airspace resides. If an entry places the pilot on the non-maneuvering side of the PT, correction to intercept the outbound course ensures remaining within protected airspace.

Still seems to be people confused about the difference between holds and racetrack patterns.

Two different things.

A racetrack pattern is a procedure turn.

 

[dmspilot]

You have to turn outbound on the barbed (PT) side.

So you cannot cross the fix and turn left, even if you wait until you intercept the outbound course to descend?

 

[jaybee]

So you cannot cross the fix and turn left, even if you wait until you intercept the outbound course to descend?

Define left. Which direction you coming from? As long as "left" is on the barbed side of the course you can do a course reversal however you like

 

[dmspilot]

Define left. Which direction you coming from? As long as "left" is on the barbed side of the course you can do a course reversal however you like

Refer to Post 1.

 

[aterpster]

So you cannot cross the fix and turn left, even if you wait until you intercept the outbound course to descend?

The barbed side is the side of the course where all maneuvering must be done; turn to course outbound, or "racetrack," or 90-270, or 80-260, or even just a 360.

 

[aterpster]

You are right, of course. Brain fart. I meant "procedure" designers, not the guys, whether FAA, Jepp, Garmin, ForeFlight, WingX, or the guys in the back room of "Joes' Chart Emporium" who use the data fro the official forms to create the documents and program the devices we generally use in-cockpit.

Worthy of note for this thread. The United States is the only ICAO compliant nation that issues IAP as regulations and in text format. The many other ICAO compliant nations issue their IAPs as an actual approach chart in their 28-day cycle Aeronautical Information Publication. (AIP) (We, the USA, are the only trooper marching in step Mom.)