How to buy a plane

simtech

simtech

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Simtech
So I think I have found my plane. It is in Memphis and a 3 hour drive. I couldn't make it last weekend due to no plane to fly there and the weather was bad. So I figured this coming weekend. Well we own a greenhouse and since the weather is nice this coming weekend we are to re plastic it. So that blows out this weekend.

How does one deal with this type of situation when you don't have time to go look when someone else might snatch it before I get a chance to get there? Should I hire a broker or just schedule a pre buy and if all is good do it? I don't like that idea and this would be my first purchase.

Any ideas?
 
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I would try to see it. However I did purchase a twin over the internet. Had the owner e mail logs,had a pre purchase from a shop that didn't service the airplane,had my mechanic talk to prebuy shop.Had a great bunch of years with that airplane.
 
Seen a good bit of pictures but we all know what pictures can hide.
 
simtech said:
So I think I have found my plane. It is in Memphis and a 3 hour drive. I couldn't make it last weekend due to no plane to fly there and the weather was bad. So I figured this coming weekend. Well we own a greenhouse and since the weather is nice this coming weekend we are to re plastic it. So that blows out this weekend.

How does one deal with this type of situation when you don't have time to go look when someone else might snatch it before I get a chance to get there? Should I hire a broker or just schedule a pre buy and if all is good do it? I don't like that idea and this would be my first purchase.

Any ideas?
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Sounds like you want it pretty bad, which is a great way to end up with a huge suprise $$$$$ at the first inspetion under your ownership by skipping a detailed prbuy. All airplanes have problem areas and the Cardinals are no different.

Typical 1968 C177:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59403&highlight=easy+work

Just finishing up re-sealing all the fuel valves in a 1977 C177B now.
 
It's worth making the time to go see the plane. If you think it's a gem, make the time. Alternately, ask the seller to fly to you. 3 hour drive sounds like a 1-hour flight. If I were the seller, I'd be glad to do that for the cost of fuel, and I think that's a pretty common practice.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's worth making the time to go see the plane. If you think it's a gem, make the time. Alternately, ask the seller to fly to you. 3 hour drive sounds like a 1-hour flight. If I were the seller, I'd be glad to do that for the cost of fuel, and I think that's a pretty common practice.
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The guy lost his medical or I be the would do it. But maybe he has a buddy and they can fly it down. That was a good idea. Thanks.
 
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bnt83 said:
Sounds like you want it pretty bad, which is a great way to end up with a huge suprise $$$$$ at the first inspetion under your ownership by skipping a detailed prbuy. All airplanes have problem areas and the Cardinals are no different.

Typical 1968 C177:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59403&highlight=easy+work

Just finishing up re-sealing all the fuel valves in a 1977 C177B now.
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I don't want it bad but....hahaha okay yeah that's why I asked. I'm not comfortable buying sight unseen. I guess I'll give it time and if I can't make it hen it wasn't for me. Oh and I would do a pre buy know doubt about that!!
 
simtech said:
I don't want it bad but....hahaha okay yeah that's why I asked. I'm not comfortable buying sight unseen. I guess I'll give it time and if I can't make it hen it wasn't for me. Oh and I would do a pre buy know doubt about that!!
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What year? FG or RG?
 
In the process of buying an airplane right now. FYI. the pre-buy inspection came back looking perfect. Airplane looks perfect in and out. I went ahead and had a mechanic do an estimate for the annual since it was due in 6 months anyhow and got a $13K estimate. I think I would have a mechanic give you an estimate for the annual as well before committing, depending on how they are offering the airplane for sale. I now have $13K to negotiate or drop the deal.
 
JasonM said:
In the process of buying an airplane right now. FYI. the pre-buy inspection came back looking perfect. Airplane looks perfect in and out. I went ahead and had a mechanic do an estimate for the annual since it was due in 6 months anyhow and got a $13K estimate. I think I would have a mechanic give you an estimate for the annual as well before committing, depending on how they are offering the airplane for sale. I now have $13K to negotiate or drop the deal.
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Prebuy really needs to be a complete annual inspection done by a make/model knowlegable guy IMHO.


I can think of one part that wears out quickly on the 1968/1969 models thats about $1k to replace. Cessna is the only new parts source for it.
 
JasonM said:
In the process of buying an airplane right now. FYI. the pre-buy inspection came back looking perfect. Airplane looks perfect in and out. I went ahead and had a mechanic do an estimate for the annual since it was due in 6 months anyhow and got a $13K estimate. I think I would have a mechanic give you an estimate for the annual as well before committing, depending on how they are offering the airplane for sale. I now have $13K to negotiate or drop the deal.
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$13000 for an annual?? Must have some squawk list.
 
JasonM said:
In the process of buying an airplane right now. FYI. the pre-buy inspection came back looking perfect. Airplane looks perfect in and out. I went ahead and had a mechanic do an estimate for the annual since it was due in 6 months anyhow and got a $13K estimate. I think I would have a mechanic give you an estimate for the annual as well before committing, depending on how they are offering the airplane for sale. I now have $13K to negotiate or drop the deal.
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What are you buying that had a perfect pre-buy and a 13K annual estimate?

How do you estimate annuals anyway? I've seen set rates for the "inspection" But, you typically fix at least the airworthy items you find during the inspection. i.e. you have to get an annual to know what it's going to cost.
 
bartmc said:
What are you buying that had a perfect pre-buy and a 13K annual estimate?
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This is my question. I'd think the pre-buy would have brought to light some of the items that this annual has uncovered. Did this $13k A&P also do the pre-buy?

And reminds me of one of the seminars that Mike Busch gave at AOPA summit. A Cirrus shop tossed on lots of items that by the calendar was needed and created an annual topping over $20,000. But applying IRAN or a different solution quickly brought this downward.
 
simtech said:
So I think I have found my plane. It is in Memphis and a 3 hour drive. I couldn't make it last weekend due to no plane to fly there and the weather was bad. So I figured this coming weekend. Well we own a greenhouse and since the weather is nice this coming weekend we are to re plastic it. So that blows out this weekend.

How does one deal with this type of situation when you don't have time to go look when someone else might snatch it before I get a chance to get there? Should I hire a broker or just schedule a pre buy and if all is good do it? I don't like that idea and this would be my first purchase.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Back to your question....

Two ideas: One is having the aircraft brought to you as mentioned earlier.

Second: Hire some expert. If this is a Cardinal, Keith Peterson is someone who is known among the CFO'ers as someone who will do a very thorough per-pre-buy inspection. He is very knowledgeable in the C177 airframes and knows where to find all the good things and bad gremlines. The examples I've seen of his report are very thorough.

Consider using Guy Maher. Guy is one of the Guru's of the Cardinal (sorta like Ron Levy is to the Grummans). Guy will act as the rep for the buyer or seller. The difference about Guy is won't rep a plane for sale, nor recommend one to a buyer unless he and his top Cardinal shop have given the aircraft a thorough look over.

Third: Check CFO for Memphis and find someone who owns a Cardinal similar to the one you are looking at. Contact them and check their knowledge. See if they would be willing to be the "boots and camera on the ground". Ask them to look over the aircraft as if they were about to buy it and get a report and series of photos (including all log books). And then their honest opinion of "would you guy this airplane?"

Hopefully some of this helps.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Back to your question....

Two ideas: One is having the aircraft brought to you as mentioned earlier.

Second: Hire some expert. If this is a Cardinal, Keith Peterson is someone who is known among the CFO'ers as someone who will do a very thorough per-pre-buy inspection. He is very knowledgeable in the C177 airframes and knows where to find all the good things and bad gremlines. The examples I've seen of his report are very thorough.

Consider using Guy Maher. Guy is one of the Guru's of the Cardinal (sorta like Ron Levy is to the Grummans). Guy will act as the rep for the buyer or seller. The difference about Guy is won't rep a plane for sale, nor recommend one to a buyer unless he and his top Cardinal shop have given the aircraft a thorough look over.

Third: Check CFO for Memphis and find someone who owns a Cardinal similar to the one you are looking at. Contact them and check their knowledge. See if they would be willing to be the "boots and camera on the ground". Ask them to look over the aircraft as if they were about to buy it and get a report and series of photos (including all log books). And then their honest opinion of "would you guy this airplane?"

Hopefully some of this helps.
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Great ideas! It would be nice to have an expert inspect and give me an honest opinion. Im not attached to this one, but it does have all my wants. We will see. Ill get on CFO and see what I can come up with. Alot of their site requires a paid membership. I might bite the bullet, I for sure would if I buy one.
 
simtech said:
How does one deal with this type of situation when you don't have time to go look when someone else might snatch it before I get a chance to get there? Should I hire a broker or just schedule a pre buy and if all is good do it? I don't like that idea and this would be my first purchase.

Any ideas?
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If somebody snatches it, there will be another one next month. Don't panic and don't rush if it doesn't fit your schedule. Yes, you might miss one that really was "too good to be true", but that is a far better risk than rushing on one that wasn't as it was represented.

Also, life is short, don't waste all your time working. Take a day off and go look at the plane. You deserve it. :wink2:
 
simtech said:
Great ideas! It would be nice to have an expert inspect and give me an honest opinion. Im not attached to this one, but it does have all my wants. We will see. Ill get on CFO and see what I can come up with. Alot of their site requires a paid membership. I might bite the bullet, I for sure would if I buy one.
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If you have Cardinals on the short list of what to purchase, the less than $35 for the annual subscription is worth it. You pay more than that to support your annual gas station coffee habit!!
 
JoseCuervo said:
If somebody snatches it, there will be another one next month.
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Yup!! And if you let folks like Guy Maher know you're looking, what your budget is, and what features are on your must have and would be nice lists, you might find an even better one.
 
JoseCuervo said:
If somebody snatches it, there will be another one next month. Don't panic and don't rush if it doesn't fit your schedule. Yes, you might miss one that really was "too good to be true", but that is a far better risk than rushing on one that wasn't as it was represented.

Also, life is short, don't waste all your time working. Take a day off and go look at the plane. You deserve it. :wink2:
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I figure to get a good deal on a good plane in this market. You need to search hard for 6-12 months.
 
JasonM said:
In the process of buying an airplane right now. FYI. the pre-buy inspection came back looking perfect. Airplane looks perfect in and out. I went ahead and had a mechanic do an estimate for the annual since it was due in 6 months anyhow and got a $13K estimate. I think I would have a mechanic give you an estimate for the annual as well before committing, depending on how they are offering the airplane for sale. I now have $13K to negotiate or drop the deal.
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What kind of plane is it and what is it that will bring the cost of an annual to $13k?
 
simtech said:
69' FG.
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the 68 and most if not all 69s have a garbage lower cowling/airbox/airfilter design. I wouldn't buy one unless dirt cheap and in good shape. There have been guys who bough the later year parts and tried to convert, few completed successfully.
 
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Henning said:
What kind of plane is it and what is it that will bring the cost of an annual to $13k?
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2005 Cessna 206H. It is a pretty long list, but mainly was items that should have been replaced over a year ago and slipped passed the last annual. I'm gonna let them keep the plane if they don't step up and cover it.
 
JasonM said:
2005 Cessna 206H. It is a pretty long list, but mainly was items that should have been replaced over a year ago and slipped passed the last annual. I'm gonna let them keep the plane if they don't step up and cover it.
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:eek:

A 2005 needs $13k worth of work? Let me guess. Hoses? Accessories (prop, mags, etc)
passed the OEM recommended TBO? Bad Battrey(ies)?
 
simtech said:
69' FG.
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Another quick easy gochya on the 177FG, it the nose struts. All you need to do is let the air out of the filler valve. If a pile of hydraulic fluid comes out too, there could easily be pitting on the inside of the strut. Changing the o-ring on the floating piston in the strut isn't very fun and most of them have never been properly resealed (replacing all orings). When a guy finally bites the bullet and presses the fork retaining pin out and pulls the pug and the floating piston, cross your fingers that its not all rusty pitted junk inside it.
 
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bnt83 said:
Another quick easy gochya on the 177FG, it the nose struts. All you need to do is let the air out of the filler valve. If a pile of hydraulic fluid comes out too, there could easily be pitting on the inside of the strut. Changing the o-ring on the floating piston in the strut isn't very fun and most of them have never been properly resealed (replacing all orings). When a guy finally bites the bullet and presses the fork retaining pin out and pulls the pug and the floating piston, cross your fingers that its not all rusty pitted junk inside it.
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Actually the nose strut was recently rebuilt. Could you explain the problem with the lower cowl and air filter? That's the first I've heard of that. Just found out the plane has only been run up and taxied for the last year. Ugh...
 
simtech said:
Actually the nose strut was recently rebuilt. Could you explain the problem with the lower cowl and air filter? That's the first I've heard of that. Just found out the plane has only been run up and taxied for the last year. Ugh...
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The airbox and air filter is an intergral part of the lower cowling on the 68 and 69. That means there is a flexible duct between the carburetor and the cowl/airbox. Also, a duct for the carb heat connects to the lower cowl/airbox.

Each duct has a metal union with chinsey gawd aweful hooks that get beat to crap from the vibration of the engine and whatnot. The carb duct is around a $1k alone. The hooks wear through the lip on the unions that hold the whole assemblies together.

The carb heat cable also connects to the airbox/cowl...
 
simtech said:
Actually the nose strut was recently rebuilt. Could you explain the problem with the lower cowl and air filter? That's the first I've heard of that. Just found out the plane has only been run up and taxied for the last year. Ugh...
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Doesn't mean much. Hit the valve and watch for fluid.
 
Pretty much the only good things about the 68 & 69 is the thin wings. The 180 conversions use the same stupid airbox and duct design.
 
This transaction brings to mind the circus when I was very young. " in the center ring ladies and gentlemen! Watch as this man walks high above us without a net! Defying death!" Unquote. 13000 dollar annual? Give me a break! Harry madoff would have liked you!
 
simtech said:
Yikes for a duct! I'll have to inquire about that with the seller. Thanks! Any other known problem areas to check?
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They pay particular attention to the upper cabin structure carry thru spars due to corrosion from the CAT ducting for the fresh air system. Its a well known. What they won't tell you is the same ratty CAT ducting starts at the leading edge of both wings, where the fresh air opening is, and the ducting goes aft to the airboxes that control the flow of fresh air. These ducts corrode the crap out of those boxes, sometimes the wings skins they touch, and rib they pass thru.

Plastic brittle battery boxes. Nuff said here.

Belly skin corrosion from the battery box area aft. Battery box is aft of the plastic baggage closeout.

Alternator wiring can be trashed. Its routed right below the cylinders in there and baked to death. If the adel clamp cushions fall off then the aluminum clamps chafe the insulation on the wires. Eventually could lead to fire. (This isn't really a C177 issue tho, it's most anything Lycoming powered even some continental powered ships)

Ill fitting doors. Just hold the door up to the latch and check the misalignment. If you have to considerably lift the aft edge of the cabin doors to get them closed something is worn out in the hinges or other problems.


I could write a book...
 
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bnt83 said:
:eek:

A 2005 needs $13k worth of work? Let me guess. Hoses? Accessories (prop, mags, etc)
passed the OEM recommended TBO? Bad Battrey(ies)?
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I'd rather not give every detail about the airplane I am dealing on, but there was some electrical issues that were not found on the pre-buy including a bad mag. There are some very expensive items that expire after 7 years. And yes I was shocked. I was told to expect about $2500. Just threw this out there so it wouldn't shock someone that buys an airplane after the pre-buy then finds out next annual there was a bunch of expensive items that were not found. I was just told they will only cover half of it, as only half of it is airworthy items. I think I'm going to pass on this one.

Jimmy cooper said:
This transaction brings to mind the circus when I was very young. " in the center ring ladies and gentlemen! Watch as this man walks high above us without a net! Defying death!" Unquote. 13000 dollar annual? Give me a break! Harry madoff would have liked you!
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$13,000 annual on a $350K airplane and I am scamming? This is my first time doing this. I think I am the one being scammed. :rolleyes2:
 
JasonM said:
There are some very expensive items that expire after 7 years.
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Not on anything I'll ever own... aint worth it. I'm not even crazy about a $500+ 28 volt main battery for a 210M that I lust for lol.
 
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