How to become a lawyer

I'd consider it, except for some major drawbacks:
  • I find it highly unlikely I'd have the patience at age 38 to put up with the bullcrap of law school
  • I really only find a few areas of law actually interesting: like Intellectual Property (copyright, trademark, patent)
  • What I'd love to do (Appelate litigation) would take me years of doing really boring, poorly remunerated, stuff to be able to do
  • I would be held responsible for my legal musings, instead of now where I can throw them out from the cheap seats
 
My wife doesn't use her JD anymore. I'll sell it to you, and we can cut out the middleman. For the right price, I'll throw in membership to the Florida and Tennessee bars.

Oh, but you'll have to shave and call yourself Catherine.


(And please, no-one take this post seriously.)
 
JeffDG said:
  • I really only find a few areas of law actually interesting: like Intellectual Property (copyright, trademark, patent)
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I deal with that every day of my professional life as part of my job and I would rather take a gun to my head than work in that field fulltime.
 
ScottM said:
I deal with that every day of my professional life as part of my job and I would rather take a gun to my head than work in that field fulltime.
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So do I, though I suspect you're more in the patent end while I'm more in the Copyright side of things...I find the nuances fascinating, and I daresay that I could probably display a far greater depth of understanding than most "general" lawyers.

The specialists, hell no...they know their ****. But a general lawyer who advertises for mesothelioma victims, I'd happily take them on one-on-one in a copyright infringement case!
 
Nick: Not trying to scare you off, and I don't think that anyone else is, but lawyering ain't a cakewalk.

Basically, you're a social garbageman. As a lawyer, you help people take care of the messes that result from human interaction. Everything from crime (criminal court) to busted contracts (civil court) to people dying (probate). People come to you either: 1) because something bad has happened; or 2) because something bad is anticipated.

Just as with real garbagemen, there's a need for it. Just as with real garbagemen, if it weren't done, we would be knee deep in our collective ***t every day of the week. Just as with real garbagemen, you get paid for it.

And just as with real garbagemen, at the end of the day you've got the stink of garbage in your nostrils.

The video above is a little over the top, but not by much. Tone it down by about 5%, and it's right on.

That's not to say that it can't be enjoyable. And that's it not important - Somalia is an alternative.

Anyway, I'm seriously not trying to discourage you. Just want to make sure you know what you're getting into. :yes:
 
Ken Ibold said:
My wife doesn't use her JD anymore. I'll sell it to you, and we can cut out the middleman. For the right price, I'll throw in membership to the Florida and Tennessee bars.
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This had me picking up the phone and dialing...

Oh, but you'll have to shave and call yourself Catherine.
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...and kept dialing. All I had to do was press SEND...


(And please, no-one take this post seriously.)
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Then THIS! Hopes and dreams shattered. You weenie. You really had me going.
 
AdamZ said:
Good law is not about "smacking down your opposition" There is very little smacking down that goes on"
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Nick is the POA king of smack down.




Nick belive me, being a lawyer is not something that you do on the side.
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My former AME (RIP, Dr Rowe) held a JD, and an MD. As Senior AME he spent 2 weeks per year in OK City. He would also be called as an expert witness in actions against aircrew. Also, he was known as an aviation consultant, relying on his JD. He also owned and operated his own 135 but that is a different story albeit a good one.
 
Nick likes to stir the pot. Remember, he does things like go after NM because he failed to obey the tax law, and tries to turn it into they're crooks. He makes claims about engine reliability with statistics that would make any engineer cringe (or at least this one). I get the feeling that's why he wants to become a lawyer - so that he can stir the pot more.

Nick, you know I like you, just calling it like I see it. :)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Nick likes to stir the pot. Remember, he does things like go after NM because he failed to obey the tax law, and tries to turn it into they're crooks. He makes claims about engine reliability with statistics that would make any engineer cringe (or at least this one). I get the feeling that's why he wants to become a lawyer - so that he can stir the pot more.

Nick, you know I like you, just calling it like I see it. :)
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Perhaps more like getting paid to stir the pot...

Its a fun way to live life.
 
SkyHog said:
Perhaps more like getting paid to stir the pot...

Its a fun way to live life.
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Nick-

You might well enjoy it; some do.

Me, I ain't bad at it and I love my clients. It is not the most fun I have ever had, though.
 
SkyHog said:
Perhaps more like getting paid to stir the pot...

Its a fun way to live life.
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I suspect if you want to get paid to stir the pot - law probably isn't for you. One is better off not stirring the pot in the vast majority of legal dealings.
 
jesse said:
I suspect if you want to get paid to stir the pot - law probably isn't for you. One is better off not stirring the pot in the vast majority of legal dealings.
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In addition I don't think you get to stir whatever pot you want just because it fits your worldview.
 
One might counter-argue that if Nick's pursuit of law leads to him running for Public office, that might accomplish the goal of becoming (a useless IMHO) pot-stirrer. ;)
 
Everskyward said:
In addition I don't think you get to stir whatever pot you want just because it fits your worldview.
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Given the fact that Nick's talking about being a "part-time" lawyer and his general statements towards this, I'd think he'd be specifically looking to stir the pot that fits his view, or happens to meet whatever opinion he's taken a shine to.

The problem is, that probably won't do much to actually benefit society or much of anyone beyond his client and himself. Personally, I think that's a rather selfish view to take.
 
jesse said:
I suspect if you want to get paid to stir the pot - law probably isn't for you. One is better off not stirring the pot in the vast majority of legal dealings.
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It is often seen as a prerequisite to politics... and if that isn't professional pot-stirring, what is? Oh wait, journalism.
 
TMetzinger said:
It is often seen as a prerequisite to politics... and if that isn't professional pot-stirring, what is? Oh wait, journalism.
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Politicians do, very rarely mind you, occasionally stumble over a solution to a problem. If a journalist were to do so, he would either bury the story himself, or his editor would do it for him. Journalism is truly professional pot-stirring.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Given the fact that Nick's talking about being a "part-time" lawyer and his general statements towards this, I'd think he'd be specifically looking to stir the pot that fits his view, or happens to meet whatever opinion he's taken a shine to.

The problem is, that probably won't do much to actually benefit society or much of anyone beyond his client and himself. Personally, I think that's a rather selfish view to take.
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Actually, more specifically, its that the OP was about "How do I get from here to there," not "Why don't we have everyone try to talk me out of doing something I want to do."

Hence the jaded, flippant, and quick responses (stir the pot, smackdown the opposition, etc.).

I try not to take career advice from the internet. I will, however, take advice on how to do things from the internet. Works out pretty good for me so far. The few times I've taken career advice from the internet, I wound up making the wrong decision.

And I do believe that you might be the first person that's ever called me "selfish" in a manner that wasn't ironic or obviously a joke.
 
SkyHog said:
Actually, more specifically, its that the OP was about "How do I get from here to there," not "Why don't we have everyone try to talk me out of doing something I want to do."

Hence the jaded, flippant, and quick responses (stir the pot, smackdown the opposition, etc.).

I try not to take career advice from the internet. I will, however, take advice on how to do things from the internet. Works out pretty good for me so far. The few times I've taken career advice from the internet, I wound up making the wrong decision.

And I do believe that you might be the first person that's ever called me "selfish" in a manner that wasn't ironic or obviously a joke.
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I don't think anyone's trying to talk you out of it. Just saying that it ain't all Fourth Amendment arguments, locking up child sex offenders, or catching insurance companies in a lie.

Courtroom work is mostly compliance with deadlines and pushing papers.
 
SkyHog said:
Actually, more specifically, its that the OP was about "How do I get from here to there," not "Why don't we have everyone try to talk me out of doing something I want to do.".
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Because the answer on how to do it, i.e. take the LSAT and go to law school, is so blatantly obvious that most of us assumed that there was more to it.

You're a bit like that pierced and tatooed guy who came looking for advice and got mad when everyone told him stuff he didn't want to hear.
 
SkyHog said:
Actually, more specifically, its that the OP was about "How do I get from here to there," not "Why don't we have everyone try to talk me out of doing something I want to do."
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True, but you know how the internet works. Ask question A, get answers B, C, D, and E.

And I do believe that you might be the first person that's ever called me "selfish" in a manner that wasn't ironic or obviously a joke.
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Come now, Nick, I'm simply stirring the pot. ;)

You should know I don't actually view you as selfish.
 
steingar said:
You're a bit like that pierced and tatooed guy who came looking for advice and got mad when everyone told him stuff he didn't want to hear.
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I'm probably more like that guy that finished his undergrad and decided I'd rely on the advice of those that have already been through the process on how to proceed to get from undergrad to law degree.

Its only painfully obvious to take the LSAT and apply if you understand that prelaw degrees are not a requirement. I thought they were, so I figured the answer would be "Take the following classes to get the equivalent of a pre-law degree."

Knowing its much easier than that is a better place to be in.
 
SkyHog said:
I'm probably more like that guy that finished his undergrad and decided I'd rely on the advice of those that have already been through the process on how to proceed to get from undergrad to law degree.

Its only painfully obvious to take the LSAT and apply if you understand that prelaw degrees are not a requirement. I thought they were, so I figured the answer would be "Take the following classes to get the equivalent of a pre-law degree."

Knowing its much easier than that is a better place to be in.
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Wisdom is the ability to see beyond the lens of your own experience. Sometimes I find myself lacking. Being in an academic environment, I sometimes forget that the issues with which I deal all the time might be foreign and opaque to someone not in such an environment.
 
SkyHog said:
Hence the jaded, flippant, and quick responses (stir the pot, smackdown the opposition, etc.).
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You're the one who stated that you like to stir the pot. It's also obvious from many of your previous postings. That's not to say that it's bad, but people have other suggestions about what might be a more appropriate and less expensive road to take other than going to law school and being disappointed that it didn't turn out like your fantasy.

SkyHog said:
Perhaps more like getting paid to stir the pot...

Its a fun way to live life.
Click to expand...
 
Everskyward said:
You're the one who stated that you like to stir the pot.
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I was referring to my flippant responses, not anyone else. Was explaining that my responses were due to the number of "Don't do it!" posts in here.

Imagine, if we took the same attitude with new pilots:

"Don't bother learning to fly. Its expensive, and you're never going to fly as much as you had hoped when you first started anyway."

It'd be a pretty big downer, no?
 
SkyHog said:
Imagine, if we took the same attitude with new pilots:

"Don't bother learning to fly. Its expensive, and you're never going to fly as much as you had hoped when you first started anyway."

It'd be a pretty big downer, no?
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I'd rather have someone take a realistic look at it to begin with than being very disappointed because they spent $5,000, or whatever it costs now, on something that was a fantasy. If you are single and only supporting yourself that's one thing but it's a little irresponsible for someone who is supporting a family, living paycheck to paycheck, to take up an expensive hobby, flying included.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
I don't think anyone's trying to talk you out of it. Just saying that it ain't all Fourth Amendment arguments, locking up child sex offenders, or catching insurance companies in a lie.

Courtroom work is mostly compliance with deadlines and pushing papers.
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I think that's a lot of it, period. If it's not a courtroom it's your clients wanting to know where that document is.

If you want to go to lot school, you better really really really really like to read. A lot. Like to read. Yep, that's it. More than anything. Really really. Lots.

If you don't really like reading or if you are more of a hands on person, pick another profession.
 
zaitcev said:
Still, I'd say 68% is quite a lot.
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After that kind of specialized (and very expensive) training that's not much. And I wonder how many are making the same kind of money they would be assembling burritos for Taco Bell.
 
steingar said:
After that kind of specialized (and very expensive) training that's not much. And I wonder how many are making the same kind of money they would be assembling burritos for Taco Bell.
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Well, heck, if you get a student loan to cover most/all of your (very expensive) costs of law school, you've got nothing to lose as your payments will be capped.... :rolleyes2::rolleyes:
 
wsuffa said:
Well, heck, if you get a student loan to cover most/all of your (very expensive) costs of law school, you've got nothing to lose as your payments will be capped.... :rolleyes2::rolleyes:
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In 20 years, even with a cap of 10% annually, most people could pay off law school loans.

Even if you started out making 50K per year for 4 years, then 60K for four years, then 70K, then 80, finally 90K (only) from years 16-20... you'd still end up paying out 140K.
 
I stayed out of the crowd saying "Don't do it" if that counts for anything, Nick.

But I guess I'll semi-join them by saying...

You say you're going to do law part-time. I would never hire a part-time lawyer unless it were my only option.

The assumption here is that you'd be really inexpensive and it'd be hard for you to charge more than someone who did your specialty full-time.

Most part-time lawyers I've met aren't practicing and/or are doing menial paperwork for non-profits like filing their meeting minutes for them, and cleaning up their Articles of Incorporation that some buffoon wrote ten years prior.

None I've met were actually trying cases. Not saying they don't exist... just that I've never met any that were doing anything serious with the JD and all that work they put into passing the Bar.

In fact, at least one says he won't practice because he can't make enough money to even pay for the liability insurance he'd need if he screwed something up, and he knows his chances of screwing something up only practicing a few hours on weekends, are pretty high.

He mainly uses the knowledge to review his own contracts in real-estate and make sure there aren't nasties hidden in the typical boiler-plate material at closings, etc.
 
denverpilot said:
You say you're going to do law part-time. I would never hire a part-time lawyer unless it were my only option.

Most part-time lawyers I've met aren't practicing and/or are doing menial paperwork for non-profits like filing their meeting minutes for them, and cleaning up their Articles of Incorporation that some buffoon wrote ten years prior.

None I've met were actually trying cases.
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I only know one part-time lawer, whom I mentioned previously in this thread. He specializes in RKBA and 2ndAm cases in California. He basically gets paid to protect people from police overreach. Therefore, most of the time, his objective is to prevent the case from going to the trial (which is different from Alan Gupta, I suppose).

Why do people hire him even if he's a part-timer? I suppose mostly by reference.

Coming in cold from the street, a full-time lawer is a surer bet for all the right reasons.
 
I'll add to Spike: you aren't going to have a specialty unless you really focus on it. Just getting a law degree isn't going to get you much other than the right to say you have a law degree. Pass a bar, and you are a licensed lawyer. But if you don't use it, you aren't learning much.

Passing a bar is a license to learn as much as getting your PPL is a license to learn.
 
After 50+ years of owning businesses I have dealt with a whole raft of lawyers...

First, lawyers are a dime a dozen... They are out there scrabbling for a living while dreaming about that one big client who will make them rich and respectable... For most of them it will never happen... They will spend their lives in a 1 or 2 man office, hoping like hell to meet the payroll for their lone secretary on Friday, and have something, anything, left over to take home.. If you become a lawyer, this is what you will get... For every lawyer that winds up at a white shoe firm in NYC or DC with 17 partner names on the letterhead, a 100 will be praying for a DUI client to walk in who can come up with $500 in cash...

Most of the lawyers I have dealt with have been decent folks - just that and no more...
A few have been real dunce cap winners, shuffling through life in worn out shoes, a battered car, and you actually feel sorry for them...
And one or two have been scary smart - and vicious - hose are the ones that always made me nervous...

One in particular is a plaintiff's attorney out of the Detroit area... He is deposing me... Right from the get-go he is on a shark attack... I am not in the mood for it that day so I go right back at him... My attorney is having a heart attack, kicking me in the ankle under the table...
At one point the shark says to the court steno, "Let it be noted on the record this person is badgering me."
My instantaneous retort was, "Let it be noted on the record that counsel richly deserves it."
He just smiled...

denny-o
 
woodstock said:
In 20 years, even with a cap of 10% annually, most people could pay off law school loans.

Even if you started out making 50K per year for 4 years, then 60K for four years, then 70K, then 80, finally 90K (only) from years 16-20... you'd still end up paying out 140K.
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Yes, they may make enough to pay them off. And they should. But if they don't the loan will simply carry forward at a 10% cap. IOW, the cap simply means that there is very little risk carried by the recipient.
 
wsuffa said:
Yes, they may make enough to pay them off. And they should. But if they don't the loan will simply carry forward at a 10% cap. IOW, the cap simply means that there is very little risk carried by the recipient.
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I'm guessing the cap is probably needs based, and, my example was almost hyperbole. I suppose it's possible that someone with a law degree would only be making 90K per year 16-20 years after law school, but not entirely likely.

In other words, 10% of your gross income on student loans sounds about right. For example, I thought the standard ratio for a mortgage, using debt from ALL sources, was in the range of 28%. Meaning car, student loans, and finally housing on top.
 
The problem with a great line (one that cuts the lawyer off at the knees) during a deposition is that they can always "move to strike" anything they don't like. I don't particularly enjoy being deposed, but it seems to be part of the drill for executives in today's litigious environment. As a result, I take some perverse pleasure in cutting the pees-ants down to size.



Dr. O said:
After 50+ years of owning businesses I have dealt with a whole raft of lawyers...

First, lawyers are a dime a dozen... They are out there scrabbling for a living while dreaming about that one big client who will make them rich and respectable... For most of them it will never happen... They will spend their lives in a 1 or 2 man office, hoping like hell to meet the payroll for their lone secretary on Friday, and have something, anything, left over to take home.. If you become a lawyer, this is what you will get... For every lawyer that winds up at a white shoe firm in NYC or DC with 17 partner names on the letterhead, a 100 will be praying for a DUI client to walk in who can come up with $500 in cash...

Most of the lawyers I have dealt with have been decent folks - just that and no more...
A few have been real dunce cap winners, shuffling through life in worn out shoes, a battered car, and you actually feel sorry for them...
And one or two have been scary smart - and vicious - hose are the ones that always made me nervous...

One in particular is a plaintiff's attorney out of the Detroit area... He is deposing me... Right from the get-go he is on a shark attack... I am not in the mood for it that day so I go right back at him... My attorney is having a heart attack, kicking me in the ankle under the table...
At one point the shark says to the court steno, "Let it be noted on the record this person is badgering me."
My instantaneous retort was, "Let it be noted on the record that counsel richly deserves it."
He just smiled...

denny-o
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