How soon is too soon for actual during training?

[airdale]

I learned the patterns by myself on an Elite sim. Most of my in-airplane training was flying approaches and I got into IMC fairly early on. Looking at an old logbook, I see three hood sessions totalling 3.1 hours before I logged 0.4 of IMC. My instructor flew singles and light twins for a living and was as comfortable in IMC as he was in his recliner chair at home. That matters IMO.

Re foggles, I find IMC to be much less stressful and more enjoyable. My goal in training was to have 10 hours before I took my checkride. IIRC I had 10.2.

Re IMC in training, I think some is good and more is better. A little ice is nice, too, but that is another thread.

 

[Shawn]

That initial training can be done in a sim too, better environment and better bang for the buck.

Depends on the sim - or what one means by sim. I used one of the ATC-610 or whatever it was, and it was of no help early on.

I agree with EdFred (don't find myself saying that too often)...the SIM for me was useless during IFR training other than understanding hold procedures. Individual results may vary.

For me, under the hood was NOTHING like actual so I would argue once you are on to shooting approaches, the more actual the better.

 

[Kritchlow]

The sim is a great PROCEDURAL trainer, but unless it's a "real" sim (level C/D), I think they suck for mastering aircraft control.

 

[James331]

What you get out of a sim is really, really tied into the quality of your instructor.

For my initial IFR I used a frasca sim with no windshield video, but with real instruments, worked great, but my II give like 1k hrs dual IFR a year and has been a teacher for twice my lifetime.

Redbirds are fine, the full motion is a gimmick though.

I used a craigslist satek yoke and pedals and flight sim X to prep for my ATP, worked great.

Really it's just a matter of how the information and sim lessons are conducted, just like ground it's useless with a crap CFI and very useful with a good CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

I agree with EdFred (don't find myself saying that too often)...the SIM for me was useless during IFR training other than understanding hold procedures. Individual results may vary.

My experience is that the effectiveness of a sim in IR training is directly proportional to the instructor's knowledge and skill in using it, including a full understanding of its capabilities, limitations, and appropriateness to each thing being trained. In the hands of a good instructor, it's an effective training aid; in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it properly, it's an instrument of torture and a waste of time.

 

[petrolero]

Fly it when you got it.

In my case, in Denver, we never got any actual during my training but we did go cloud hunting as soon as I was done. And since I got my IR I've flown to places that have more frequent IMC. And still I rarely need to fly an approach - although sometimes I request them just for button-pushing practice or when unfamiliar.

 

[Pghsteel]

I to started in IMC when the approach phase began. What a eye opener. I found it to be very difficult. I felt it took 85% just to fly the airplane. The remaining 15% put me into a % hole. I felt as if I had to give up a little on the flying side and alternate priorities. Now I found myself doing nothing really we'll.

Just like anything, practice and repetition fixed me up. I do think it slowed my training a bit tho.

So for me. I wish I had more IMC earlier in my training.

Steel

 

[denverpilot]

I'll take an instrument student into actual on lesson one. We won't spend that time working on approaches, instead I will get a block of airspace from atc for us to maneuver in and we'll work on the same thing I would have had the student do under the hood in vmc.



The end of the lesson of course ends in an approach that I walk them through but the focus of the lesson is building the core instrument flying skills needed in that block of airspace.

And that's what we did. We weren't even expecting the fog but it completely changed my mindset about what and why we were working on the rating and what the end goal and accomplishments were for.

I had way too damn much sim time where everything is safe and the world can be reset.

An approach to minimums on night number one (knowing that we had a reasonable "out" and VMC all around) still gave me a completely new perspective on what the hell I was doing it all for.

And frankly, I feel damned lucky to have stumbled into an instructor who wasn't afraid to fly whatever weather was thrown at us and teach how to assess it and make decisions about it.

Not everyone gets so lucky as to have a fog bank roll in over the airport at night on day one. I wouldn't trade that night for the world. It makes the hood time, for lack of a better way to explain it, seem meaningful later, once you've seen it. It also gives an anchor of importance to it all.

Which frankly, is why I'm now out of currency and don't plan on being back in currency until I have the correct amount of time and focus to both need it and to do it right. I don't belong inside a cloud again until I've had one hell of an IPC and beat some things back into habits again. And it might take years of hard IPCs to make all those habits permanent.

My advice is, if you can't get any real weather time during your training, fly to where you can and do it. And later, go find more and stay sharp. If you're not staying sharp, just stop until you can.

Or just go visit Jesse in December. Ha. He's on my permanent "I'm buying beverages" list. Something he taught me or showed me (like all good instructors) will eventually save my life, of that I have zero doubt. May not be this year, may not be next year, but it will happen. There's other instructors on that permanent beverage list, too. And a couple of them have saved my ass with their voices in my head over the years.

 

[topsail]

I prefer actual.

That said years ago when I trained for my IFR ticket I successfully shot my first approach to near minimums I looked over at my CFI and he was pale as a sheet. He later confessed it was his first actual IMC approach and all of his training at Embry Riddle had been under the hood. It was time to get a new CFI.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Much of my IFR training was done after work on the California coast where we get the marine layer right at about 6:00 PM....

I think I was fortunate to have this as we were "in the clouds" from day one... and I think this accelerated my training.. BTW.... my cross country was about 30% actual IMC....

 

[bobmrg]

That initial training can be done in a sim too, better environment and better bang for the buck.

Can't learn "the numbers" in a sim and have that muscle memory transfer into an aircraft. "How many rpms and how many degrees of pitch should you add to get a 500 fpm climb at constant airspeed?" You can collect those numbers for a specific sim but they probably won't work in a 172, Cherokee, BO, etc.

Bob Gardner

 

[Henning]

But that's exactly my point, you can't tell what the issue is based solely on whether a CFII is willing to take students up in actual.

It's not a real high minimums approach but it isn't an ILS either. On any real IFR day in SE MI, you do run the risk of it going too low for that approach. I was stranded at PTK twice doing solo IFR practice flights.

I don't care what their issue is, if they can't fulfill my requirements, I have no use for them and will find someone who will. I don't pay second rate talent to educate me. There are plenty of good working CFIs to be found among the QBs there is never a need to settle. Usually I pay them in maintenance work as well.