How soon is too soon for actual during training?

Somedudeintn

Somedudeintn

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somedudeintn
I'm really itching to get some actual time in and was wondering at what stage during instrument training is it OK to start flying in actual. My cfii is saying he wants me to get more hood time first (which I also agree is probably best since I'm only a few lessons in).

This is pretty much how I was feeling about soloing during private training. Just curious to see what others' experiences have been.
 
My CFII was fine taking me up into it day 1. However it got a bit windy so we didn't end up going. This week it's pretty cloudy so if the winds are sub 20knots or so then I'm sure we'll get up, and I'm 4 lessons in so far.

I will say though I now see how people get messed up. Even just under the hood practicing holding patterns there have been a few times where spatial disorientation really made me feel we were straight and level in a bank, or banked while straight and level.
 
When you and your instructor both feel comfortable.
 
After you learn your power settings and demonstrate control under the hood (including partial panel). Actual is different from simulated, it's good to do with your instructor when you can.

If you can't hold heading and altitude, and turn to requested headings, actual time will be of little benefit.
 
Day 1. You should be doing as much of your IR training in actual as the weather will allow. Foggles just ain't the same.
 
I did actual pretty quick in my private training. Just basic headings and altitudes with approach vectoring us around. Not as much in my instrument though as weather wasn't cooperating.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Day 1. You should be doing as much of your IR training in actual as the weather will allow. Foggles just ain't the same.
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That

If you can't get IMC, get in the sim, I know some areas of the U.S. it just won't work out, but really from day 1, it's like looking for good VFR days during your PPL :D

How much IMC time does your instructor have? Could it be he isn't very comfy in actual?
 
Somedudeintn said:
I'm really itching to get some actual time in and was wondering at what stage during instrument training is it OK to start flying in actual. My cfii is saying he wants me to get more hood time first (which I also agree is probably best since I'm only a few lessons in).

This is pretty much how I was feeling about soloing during private training. Just curious to see what others' experiences have been.
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My instructor had me in it as soon and as frequently as he could. Since it was winter in SoCal, it gave us plenty of opportunity. It's actually tougher in actual than with a hood due to things popping in and out of sight around you causing distraction.

If your instructor wants you to have more hood time, your instructor is not a confident instrument pilot himself and probably is low on time in actual as manipulator of the controls.
 
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I hope none in the DA-20. I'm not sure what else you guys fly over there.
 
I'm not a fan of day 1. I believe you first should be able to control the airplane.
If you are actual, you will be in an IFR light plan. There will be no room for your instructor to let you deviate. In theory he may need to physically make the corrections for you immediately. That doesn't seem like a good learning environment.
One you have your basic attitude skills down, I'm all for it.
 
James331 said:
That

If you can't get IMC, get in the sim, I know some areas of the U.S. it just won't work out, but really from day 1, it's like looking for good VFR days during your PPL :D

How much IMC time does your instructor have? Could it be he isn't very comfy in actual?
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Thoe are my thoughts as well. I had only 8 hours actual with 45 hours simulated when I started teaching instrument flying.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm not a fan of day 1. I believe you first should be able to control the airplane.
If you are actual, you will be in an IFR light plan. There will be no room for your instructor to let you deviate. In theory he may need to physically make the corrections for you immediately. That doesn't seem like a good learning environment.
One you have your basic attitude skills down, I'm all for it.
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My instructor would get us a block of airspace to work in, no worries where you are within the box. But really, if you're a proficient VFR pilot, it doesn't take long at all before you have the basic moves within parameters.
 
Henning said:
My instructor would get us a block of airspace to work in, no worries where you are within the box. But really, if you're a proficient VFR pilot, it doesn't take long at all before you have the basic moves within parameters.
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The block will indeed work to get the BAI skills down.
Correct about it not taking long, but everyone is different. I'm betting a couple hours should do it for a good VFR pilot, but I'm not a CFII.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I hope none in the DA-20. I'm not sure what else you guys fly over there.
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No actual in the da20. They said we would jump in the 172 for actual but I'm planning on trying to switch over to the m20j to build complex time and time in type. The current plan is to purchase some m20 (likely an F, but would love a J) in another 2-3 years.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Day 1. You should be doing as much of your IR training in actual as the weather will allow. Foggles just ain't the same.
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Agree.

If your instructor isn't confident in actual, find a new instructor. First experience in IMC is much better done with an instructor than without.
 
Kritchlow said:
The block will indeed work to get the BAI skills down.
Correct about it not taking long, but everyone is different. I'm betting a couple hours should do it for a good VFR pilot, but I'm not a CFII.
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I should qualify my response... That is IF you are training in an area where you can get a block.
 
And if you can't get in a sim, or actual, do it at night.
 
My first IFR training flight was into IMC. It was more of a demonstrator flight of how a typical IFR flight works.
 
I'll take an instrument student into actual on lesson one. We won't spend that time working on approaches, instead I will get a block of airspace from atc for us to maneuver in and we'll work on the same thing I would have had the student do under the hood in vmc.

The end of the lesson of course ends in an approach that I walk them through but the focus of the lesson is building the core instrument flying skills needed in that block of airspace.
 
I agree that as soon as practical is a good idea. That's the stuff you really have to get comfortable with. It's too easy to cheat with foggles and you know in the back of your mind you can always take them off and see. IFR flight plan + IMC is the real deal.

Maybe I'm a weirdo but I found IMC to be relaxing. I hated having those foggles on. With IMC I could just scan the instruments without junk on my face and I could look out into the clouds periodically which is pretty cool. :)
 
jesse said:
I'll take an instrument student into actual on lesson one. We won't spend that time working on approaches, instead I will get a block of airspace from atc for us to maneuver in and we'll work on the same thing I would have had the student do under the hood in vmc.

The end of the lesson of course ends in an approach that I walk them through but the focus of the lesson is building the core instrument flying skills needed in that block of airspace.
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Well since my cfii is on his way to the regionals in a few weeks I'm thinking I've got a few things I'll be sure to check for the next cfii. I'll plan on seeing how much actual they have and if they are willing to go into actual early. I really don't mind paying more for an experienced cfii vs a younger timebuilder for the quality of instruction and experience. I think I'll also go with someone who follows a syllabus as I also haven't felt like there has been a ton of direction in my last few lessons.
 
Find a old freight dawg or EMS pilot.

Thus why I always like to tell folks to find a ATP, CFI, at least you know they ain't going away soon.
 
James331 said:
Find a old freight dawg or EMS pilot.

Thus why I always like to tell folks to find a ATP, CFI, at least you know they ain't going away soon.
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What does having an ATP have to do with a cfi leaving? Seems like if you're worried about a cfi leaving you should find one whose end game is the instruction itself.
 
Henning said:
If your instructor wants you to have more hood time, your instructor is not a confident instrument pilot himself and probably is low on time in actual as manipulator of the controls.
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That's possible but I don't think it necessarily follows. My first CFII would not take me up in actual if there was a chance we would not be able to get back in at home base. As a result, I had very little actual during training for the rating. He was, I believe, a confident instrument pilot but he was also a self-employed career CFI, very much afraid of losing business if he had to cancel on a student if he got delayed somewhere with another student.
 
AustinPilot said:
Maybe I'm a weirdo but I found IMC to be relaxing. I hated having those foggles on. With IMC I could just scan the instruments without junk on my face and I could look out into the clouds periodically which is pretty cool. :)
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Then I'm a weirdo too... I hate hoods and found actual much easier. A big part of it is that most of the time my scan has to include the GPS as well as the steam gauges, and when using the hood, that means moving my head, with the inevitable side-effect of vertigo. Without the blasted hood, I can scan my entire panel, including the engine instruments, with eye movements only.

Unfortunately, my first CFII insisted that I wear the hood even in actual, so I never had the real experience of instrument flying until the last couple of months, finishing up with a different CFII who did things very differently, and had a very different philosophy of teaching instrument flying.
 
My first taste of actual was when we started doing approaches about half way through my training. It's all about how comfortable you and your CFI are. I was fortunate enough to have a CFI who wasn't afraid of the clouds and I got about 10 hours of actual during training.
 
As early and as often as possible. If you can't get actual, fly at night.
 
azure said:
That's possible but I don't think it necessarily follows. My first CFII would not take me up in actual if there was a chance we would not be able to get back in at home base. As a result, I had very little actual during training for the rating. He was, I believe, a confident instrument pilot but he was also a self-employed career CFI, very much afraid of losing business if he had to cancel on a student if he got delayed somewhere with another student.
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That's a whole different issue, that is IFR flight planning. It's about being able to get back period. Did you only have a high minimums approach available or was most of it LIFR?
 
Trying to conduct basic instrument training (the A/B patterns and the like) under IFR is very difficult -- the flexibility you need to change heading/altitude at will is very hard to arrange with ATC. For that reason, I do that portion of IR training in clear air under VFR. However, once that's done, I'm happy to move my trainees to the next stage (basic procedures like PT's and holding) under IFR in the weather -- and do, if the weather allows.
 
Doing at least some of your training in actual does have some value, problem is you've still got your CFII security blanket sitting right there beside you. I've often thought what instrument training really needs is something that serves the same confidence building purpose as "solo" does for private pilot training.
 
I trained in SoCal and getting block airspace within which we could maneuver at will was a matter of a radio call. :dunno:
 
I actually was in actual with a CFII when I flew to Peoria for my first FAA medical. This was while I was working on my FAA conversion license prior to IR training. Frankly, this experience gave me the bug for instrument training.
 
Ron Levy said:
Trying to conduct basic instrument training (the A/B patterns and the like) under IFR is very difficult -- the flexibility you need to change heading/altitude at will is very hard to arrange with ATC. For that reason, I do that portion of IR training in clear air under VFR. However, once that's done, I'm happy to move my trainees to the next stage (basic procedures like PT's and holding) under IFR in the weather -- and do, if the weather allows.
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Depends on where you're at. Easy as pie here. Remain between radial 270 and radial 320, dme 10 miles to 20 miles, altitude three thousand to six thousand.

Can usually get them to carve off a pretty massive chunk of airspace as long as it's out of the way of the arrivals and departures. Would be much harder in other parts of the country.
 
jesse said:
Depends on where you're at. Easy as pie here. Remain between radial 270 and radial 320, dme 10 miles to 20 miles, altitude three thousand to six thousand.
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Point taken. I do about 90% of my training east of the Mississippi, and that makes it a lot harder to get such airspace blocks.
 
Henning said:
That's a whole different issue, that is IFR flight planning. It's about being able to get back period.
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But that's exactly my point, you can't tell what the issue is based solely on whether a CFII is willing to take students up in actual.
Did you only have a high minimums approach available or was most of it LIFR?
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It's not a real high minimums approach but it isn't an ILS either. On any real IFR day in SE MI, you do run the risk of it going too low for that approach. I was stranded at PTK twice doing solo IFR practice flights.
 
I think I did the first actual flight when we were starting instrument approaches
 
Basic attitude instrument flying and learning "the numbers" for the airplane requires unrestricted VFR, IMHO, and i think that the first few hours should be dedicated to those goals (with an approach at the end of each lesson). When conditions allowed, I would punch out of Boeing Field to VFR-on-top, cancel IFR when in the clear, and do airwork until it was time to shoot the approach back to home base.

A perfect training day in the Puget Sound area was 1000 overcast, tops 4000...because almost all of the initial approach altitudes were at 3000.

Bob Gardner
 
That initial training can be done in a sim too, better environment and better bang for the buck.
 
James331 said:
That initial training can be done in a sim too, better environment and better bang for the buck.
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Depends on the sim - or what one means by sim. I used one of the ATC-610 or whatever it was, and it was of no help early on. No feedback. But when the weather was too scuzzy (trained out of a field with no approaches) it was a decent substitute later on.
 
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