How Much Trim for Steep Turns in a 172?

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

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I am getting close to taking my Form 5 CAP flight with a completely by the book CFI. I am quite sure he will have me do steep turns and I only have .4 easy hours in a 172.

When I do steep turns in a 140 I know just about how much to move the trim wheel to easily maintain altitude during the maneuver. I don't even remember how the trim is actuated on a 172.

I don't know exactly which 172 version it is, but it is a pretty late model. Can anyone give me a hint or a starting point for how much trim to dial in for this maneuver?

Thanks for your help.
 
If your trim in the 140 is anything like the 170s and late 50s/very early 60s 172s, it is on the floor. Sometime in the 60s Cessna moved it to the lower center post below the panel. I would suggest you try using about as much trim as you would in the 140. Personally, I don't typically adjust trim for steep turns, but that's just me.
 
Too many variables to get a good answer here. The only way to know is to actually try it on the airframe and even then it wont be a 100% solution

Mine is a 56 and generally, when trimmed for straight and level on a normal day, it takes 1/4 to 1/2 a wheel turn, depending on air speed to make steep turns able to be done with no hands, more or less.
 
In my experience two top to bottom trim adjustments should be enough to reduce the back pressure for the steep turn on an SP.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I am getting close to taking my Form 5 CAP flight with a completely by the book CFI. I am quite sure he will have me do steep turns and I only have .4 easy hours in a 172.

When I do steep turns in a 140 I know just about how much to move the trim wheel to easily maintain altitude during the maneuver. I don't even remember how the trim is actuated on a 172.

I don't know exactly which 172 version it is, but it is a pretty late model. Can anyone give me a hint or a starting point for how much trim to dial in for this maneuver?

Thanks for your help.
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I put in one full "swipe", touching the wheel at the top and rotating it down as far as it will go in one "swipe." That's probably about a 1/4 turn. This relieves the back pressure enough to not have fight it. I'd guess that 2 "swipes wouldn't be over doing it. I fly M and N models.
 
If you are trying to do the maneuver to FAA recommendations - just leave it trimmed for normal flight.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...aft/airplane_handbook/media/FAA-H-8083-3B.pdf

Look at section 9-1.

The better instructors I've flown with all told me to stop trimming as much and concentrate on knowing how much yoke input I needed. Generally if you trim too much, you're more likely to bust on the recovery.
 
Why not go up with a CAP instructor different from your evaluator and try a few? If you can fly from the right seat, any qualified CAP member will do; you just can't use the controls below 1000 AGL.

I use two "handfuls" on a 172N, but CAP airplanes are fat pigs. I can't imagine you're much below max gross on a G1000 172 with all the CAP equipment and two adults. We have trouble fitting three guys in a 182.

It may seem a lot like a check ride, but it isn't. I managed to get away with one approach a little on the slow side and a lot of power on my Form 5. It was actually a very good landing, but that's a no-no with a DPE.

Good luck and semper gumby.

I should be taking my Form 91 in a month or so. Just finished MP ground school.

FYI, a Form 5 counts as 5 of the 6 activities required for Wings.
 
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So MAK, I havent done a wings event in several years. Does 6 equal a BFR? Our CAP is a CFI, but for some reason he doesnt write off the BFR for the form 5.

Thanks to all for the replies. They are very helpful.
 
It's trim, not paint by numbers, meh swipe and a half or so, it has been a LONG while since I flew the mighty 172 skychicken.
 
Maciej said:
In my experience two top to bottom trim adjustments should be enough to reduce the back pressure for the steep turn on an SP.
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This is what I would say as well. I was taught to use trim, but prefer only using the yoke.
 
MBDiagMan said:
So MAK, I havent done a wings event in several years. Does 6 equal a BFR? Our CAP is a CFI, but for some reason he doesnt write off the BFR for the form 5.

Thanks to all for the replies. They are very helpful.
Click to expand...

There are six activities -- three flights and three seminars -- to complete a "phase" in Wings, which delays your BFR. It is NOT equivalent; the activities expire individually after one year, and all six must be current.

The missing activity is CRM. There are not many Wings seminars that fit that, but there are a few (the most convenient is AOPA's online unit).

It would be nice if other CAP activities, especially Mission Aircrew School, counted for Wings, as they are quite relevant, and include quite a lot of CRM. I don't know if you've done any aircrew training yet, but there is a whole lot of emphasis on overlapping responsibility and teamwork. If you haven't, I'd strongly suggest scanner training ASAP. You only need a form 5 if you're in the left seat. The right doesn't even need a pilot certificate, except for a few instances like flying the new scanning cameras (the pilot must be heads down for that, so it's a lot like being a safety pilot).

I'm currently MS, MO, AP, TMP, O-ride, and MP-T. So far, the most fun has been MO, but I haven't yet flown any MP missions. Odds are, passing your form 5 will get you TMP immediately (if you have enough PIC hours -- 100 I think), and O-ride can be added on nearly trivially to the form 5 (but it needs 200 PIC hours).
 
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Cpt_Kirk said:
This is what I would say as well. I was taught to use trim, but prefer only using the yoke.
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Exactly these. I was taught two swipes top to bottom, but more into my training I decided my preference was to go with muscling the yoke a bit instead of using trim. On my checkride the DPE was a little surprised but didn't make much more than a side comment.
 
On a 172M or P, two turns... Grab the wheel at the top and rotate it from the 1 o'clock position to about 4 o'clock and then do that again. That said, I don't usually trim for steep turns.
 
Pretty rare I trim for steep turns. I just role rapidly to the bank angle that I want while focusing outside the window to ensure I "pivot" the nose around a point on the horizon and keep the nose there or slightly above that point.

I'll trim for a steep turn in an airplane if the control forces require lots of strength but that's just not the case in a 172.
 
MBDiagMan said:
When I do steep turns in a 140 I know just about how much to move the trim wheel to easily maintain altitude during the maneuver. I don't even remember how the trim is actuated on a 172.

I don't know exactly which 172 version it is, but it is a pretty late model. Can anyone give me a hint or a starting point for how much trim to dial in for this maneuver?

Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

As much or as little as required. Each airplane is different.
 
jesse said:
Pretty rare I trim for steep turns. I just role rapidly to the bank angle that I want while focusing outside the window to ensure I "pivot" the nose around a point on the horizon and keep the nose there or slightly above that point.

I'll trim for a steep turn in an airplane if the control forces require lots of strength but that's just not the case in a 172.
Click to expand...

Ditto. I was taught no trimming, two hands on the yoke and keep your eyes on the cowling / horizon 90% of the time. It's not that difficult to do this and keep within 100' altitude. You can know from where the horizon is relative to the screws on the cowling whether you're going up or down and need to adjust. That sight picture is far more important and swiping the control wheel.

Neither is right or wrong, just different ways.
 
DesertNomad said:
On a 172M or P, two turns... Grab the wheel at the top and rotate it from the 1 o'clock position to about 4 o'clock and then do that again. That said, I don't usually trim for steep turns.
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I was taught to do that for hands off steep turns. Seems to work.
 
jesse said:
Pretty rare I trim for steep turns. I just role rapidly to the bank angle that I want while focusing outside the window to ensure I "pivot" the nose around a point on the horizon and keep the nose there or slightly above that point.

I'll trim for a steep turn in an airplane if the control forces require lots of strength but that's just not the case in a 172.
Click to expand...

I trim for everything. That was one thing flying the Jetstream really taught me, always be tweaking the trim.
 
bflynn said:
Ditto. I was taught no trimming, two hands on the yoke and keep your eyes on the cowling / horizon 90% of the time. It's not that difficult to do this and keep within 100' altitude. You can know from where the horizon is relative to the screws on the cowling whether you're going up or down and need to adjust. That sight picture is far more important and swiping the control wheel.

Neither is right or wrong, just different ways.
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If you need two hands on the yoke you should be trimming.

If you need two hands on the yoke of a 172 you need to eat some

rare+steak.jpg
 
Sac Arrow said:
I was taught to do that for hands off steep turns. Seems to work.
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On a 172 or 182, yes. Though I haven't ever tried steep turns on a 172SP. Done lots of Ms and Ns though. But never at max gross and any CAP airplane is likely to be much heavier than normal.

On anything I've tried with a stabilator (Cardinal, several Cherokee models), it's way too much.
 
However much you want. Try them and see. Its going to vary from plane to plane and airspeed to airspeed and pilot to pilot. That's how trim is. Its always different. Your response should be semi-automatic. When you feel pressure, trim it out. With a steep turn, you know its for a short amount of time. If you are comfortable strong arming it, go ahead. They both work. Captain DOITMYWAY to the contrary.
 
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Trim = Finesse. If you are trimmed for the speed in the turn, it is incredibly easy to make a zero deviation steep turn even at 60° of bank. I don't think 45° should be taught as steep either. That's steep for an airliner, not a 3.8G GA plane. 2G is where steep starts, and that's 60°.
 
I don't use trim in my 182 for 45* steep turns most of the time. I might dial in a little for a 60* turn if I'm going the full 360 though. It would probably be easier if I did use some trim and I'd probably be more consistent, but I kinda like the feel of the control forces. Makes me feel all piloty.
 
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