How much does your mechanic or avionics person charge?

[Jdm]

A huge issue for independents is Insurance.

When you need it it’s too late.

Yessir indeed. I don’t even want to use my IA because of the liability risks. Certainly not worth getting the insurance for a side job guy like myself.

 

[Magman]

Anyone ever hear of a group of independents forming an LLC and sharing a policy?

One policy has a premium of about $6K for 1 million coverage.

Seems doable for part-timers who bill through the LLC and split about 4 ways.

I’m guessing this varies by state?

Any alternatives to the insurance dilemma?

 

[mandm]

Supposed to be $100/hour but ends up costing about $400 to fix anything (such as installing a new fuel pump). No idea how much time actually goes into it though. Smaller fixes are usually around $100.

Prices were considerably cheaper in Florida.

 

[mandm]

Anyone ever hear of a group of independents forming an LLC and sharing a policy?

One policy has a premium of about $6K for 1 million coverage.

Seems doable for part-timers who bill through the LLC and split about 4 ways.

I’m guessing this varies by state?

Any alternatives to the insurance dilemma?

I’ve heard of people doing this and splitting costs from 10-12 people.

 

[Jdm]

Anyone ever hear of a group of independents forming an LLC and sharing a policy?

No I haven’t. Not a bad idea though. Certainly worth a try. I do know a rather sharp IA who formed a LLC and has structured his finances to where it'd be extremely difficult and costly to reach him financially. I’d say it’s almost impossible to reach him actually. The amount of effort he puts into this is impressive. Not something I’m interested in but it seems to work well for him.

 

[Bell206]

Anyone ever hear of a group of independents forming an LLC and sharing a policy?

Interesting concept but never seen multiple APs as equal members or managers of an LLC. Maybe one or two guys have the LLC and hire the others as employees or contractors then yes. For me, if I couldn't have final input or control over the work or decisions of the others I wouldn't want that risk given airworthiness is subjective to the person. Just look at the number of prebuys that turn into a pandora's box at the 1st annual.

One policy has a premium of about $6K for 1 million coverage.

Seems a bit low. Is this an aviation maintenance policy?

I’m guessing this varies by state?

Yes and is the most important part as LLCs are governed at the state level.

I’d say it’s almost impossible to reach him actually.

FYI: if negligence is involved LLCs don't offer that level of protection. However, if you want the most protection live in a state that provides exemptions for the basics like your primary domicile and certain retirement accounts.

 

[Magman]

From what I’ve seen; Techs are reluctant to work on aircraft they don’t own due to liability concerns. However; most Aircraft Insurance policies do not cover the Owner/Mechanic’s maintenance actions on that aircraft. That burden dos not end when the aircraft is sold.

I think you can get higher coverage.

At one time PAMA ( Professional Aircraft Mechanics Assn) offered a
“ Defense Only” policy for a reasonable cost. There was no “ pot of gold” to encourage legal action. They discontinued it.

Suggestions?

 

[JOhnH]

These GA shops are rediculiously low.

But when i see they want to hire MXs with 3 years exp and they offer $25/hr they wonder why no one applies.

Wanna know why GA A&Ps are a dying breed? $85/hr shop rate leaves almist no meat on the bone.

But then when a shop charges enough to build a business and make a living for the owner and the employees, someone opens a thread complaining about being ripped off, and others want to know who it was so they can avoid them.

Shops need to pay a competitive wage and charge a sustainable fee and pilots need to pay it without whining and complaining. Of course there are limits to what they can charge, but I don't know of many shops that have reached that limit yet.

 

[Jdm]

FYI: if negligence is involved LLCs don't offer that level of protection. However, if you want the most protection live in a state that provides exemptions for the basics like your primary domicile and certain retirement accounts.

Completely agree and precisely the reason I haven’t bothered starting an LLC. The IA fellow I’m referring to has a much more complex system in place than just an LLC. It’s quite a circle of legal money movement to prevent anyone from having an understanding or ability to attack. Again, it’s definitely not for me, but pretty slick nonetheless.

 

[Jdm]

From what I’ve seen; Techs are reluctant to work on aircraft they don’t own due to liability concerns. However; most Aircraft Insurance policies do not cover the Owner/Mechanic’s maintenance actions on that aircraft. That burden dos not end when the aircraft is sold.

I’ve actually become the opposite. Find myself more concerned with maintenance on my own airplanes than others. A simple A&P sign off doesn't bother me but the blanket airworthiness statements are concerning. With partners involved it’s beginning to feel more and more risky.

 

[Jdm]

Just look at the number of prebuys that turn into a pandora's box at the 1st annual.

I’ve gotten to where I actually enjoy prebuys and believe that I’ve become pretty good at the job. I like them for a number of reasons. First of all I really like helping new owners into the airplane they want while offering general education along the way. Also it commonly turns into delivery, test flights, flight instruction, aircraft management, representation, and lasting friendships.
I also think there’s less liability than other work. There’s no statements attesting to airworthiness even though an impressive “evaluation” has taken place. I have the purchaser sign an extremely detailed disclosure that defines what a prebuy is and more importantly what it is not. It has a clear statement releasing liability for any future costs or legal recourse whatsoever. I’m told by at least one legal contract specialist that it’d be rather difficult to misunderstand or fight the intent of a prebuy under this agreement.

 

[Bell206]

Suggestions?

Simple. Grow the market and get more people interested in flying and the infrastructure will grow also. The reason APIAs, small shops, and airport are disappearing is they are following that market. Maintenance insurance costs are secondary in a declining market.

The IA fellow I’m referring to has a much more complex system in place than just an LLC.

FYI: There are only a handful of options available in the US. Complexity only makes it take longer. The only system that really works is to have no tangible assets or income worth coming after. But who wants to live like that?

A simple A&P sign off doesn't bother me but the blanket airworthiness statements are concerning.

What "blanket" statements? Every sign off I make is referenced to a specific guide. If you're signing for something you don't know about then that is a different matter.

I also think there’s less liability than other work.

For what it is worth, there's no difference. You are still liable for the work you actually perform from a regulatory point and from the civil side under duty of care. There's no free ride as an A&P. Unfortunately there are a number of examples out there that prove it.

 

[Jdm]

FYI: There are only a handful of options available in the US. Complexity only makes it take longer. The only system that really works is to have no tangible assets or income worth coming after. But who wants to live like that?

Precisely. I wouldn’t want that life either! Works for him and when he retires he has a plan to retrieve assets. I call him Pablo Escobar

What "blanket" statements? Every sign off I make is referenced to a specific guide. If you're signing for something you don't know about then that is a different matter.

By blanket I mean broad such as an annual. I understand there’s a guide and a reference but it’s still a much larger maintenance task. With a prebuy eval you’re not making any such statements. I’ve signed legit inspections that I put forth 100% effort and still accidentally missed something, not major but still liability. Even if nothing is missed lawyers have a way of dragging innocent people into court.

For what it is worth, there's no difference. You are still liable for the work you actually perform from a regulatory point and from the civil side under duty of care. There's no free ride as an A&P. Unfortunately there are a number of examples out there that prove it.

Totally agree and with a prebuy that liability (work preformed) is considerably reduced. Typical work preformed on a prebuy is opening and closing panels and a compression check. Everything quoted (which is a lot) gets looked at but with less overall liability in comparison to a regulated inspection that requires its minimum airworthiness. It’s also a different objective than a regulated inspection. No one wants to pay top dollar for minimum airworthiness on a new airplane. It’s not uncommon for the customer to request additional items (mag timing, borescope, discrepancies) and I sign for those individually. Just overall less work preformed but with a more appropriate goal of evaluating the airplane.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Completely agree and precisely the reason I haven’t bothered starting an LLC. The IA fellow I’m referring to has a much more complex system in place than just an LLC. It’s quite a circle of legal money movement to prevent anyone from having an understanding or ability to attack. Again, it’s definitely not for me, but pretty slick nonetheless.

Gonna guess my accountant could figure it out in an afternoon. Not many have escaped without liability for some serious error.

 

[Jdm]

Gonna guess my accountant could figure it out in an afternoon. Not many have escaped without liability for some serious error.

Sure but with nothing illegal and no assets it’s not much to look into or come after. Nothing illegal about paying taxes and then spending all profits. All his hard assets are funded with max borrowed money that never achieves equity.
Again, it’s nothing I’m promoting. Certainly not my idea of happiness!! I just find it interesting how serious the insurance burden is on mechanics and the measures some take to avoid consequences. The funny thing is this guy is one of the most thorough and knowledgeable mechanics I’ve ever known..

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Remember,
LLCs don’t protect you from yourself. They’re used in partnerships and companies to protect you from your partners/coworkers. LLCs veil of protection can be broken if you don’t use due diligence.

Second, some states have protected assets that can’t be touched, in Florida that includes retirement accounts and primary homes. So in Florida you would have a big home with smaller or no mortgage and you would maximize your retirement savings.

 

[Bell206]

Just overall less work preformed but with a more appropriate goal of evaluating the airplane.

Even if nothing is missed lawyers have a way of dragging innocent people into court.

And that is the point I'm trying to make. You can get dragged in whether its an annual or a "prebuy." The scope/amount of work doesn't preclude it even if you do not break a single regulation. And a good plaintiff attorney can easily convince someone that a "prebuy" should be the same scope as an annual. We don't buy insurance to protect us against the FAA rather from the owner. Something to think about.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

$110/hr, and he has a seemingly endless backlog of work, so I won't be surprised (or upset) if he raises it more next year.

 

[Jdm]

And that is the point I'm trying to make. You can get dragged in whether it’s an annual or a "prebuy." The scope/amount of work doesn't preclude it even if you do not break a single regulation. And a good plaintiff attorney can easily convince someone that a "prebuy" should be the same scope as an annual. We don't buy insurance to protect us against the FAA rather from the owner. Something to think about.

Good point and well taken. My prebuy disclaimer is extremely detailed. It clearly states the evaluation should in no way be confused with an annual inspection, or any other inspection that attests to the airworthiness of the aircraft. Hopefully it’ll at least help deter any misunderstandings in that regard. Nothings bulletproof but I have had it reviewed by professionals and they seem to think it passes the sniff test anyway.

 

[Magman]

Just about every PB I’ve done started with; “ How much for a PB?” When I answer
with “ Just what do you want done?”the reply is along the line of whatever I think.
A lengthy discussion follows as I state that they are responsible for the scope/ hours to be conducted. The value of the aircraft and airworthiness are not always related. ie Runs in the paint may reduce the value but have little impact on airworthiness. The result of this is a List with no recommendations to purchase on my part.

I hope the “professionals” are AVIATION attorneys and not garden variety lawyers.
I think liability varies between an Annual and a PB. A misinterpreted AD or missed corrosion spot can put you in court also. Hopefully Agreement covers you.

 

[Steve136]

Problem does not lie in the hourly rate, but in the hours. My experience has been that if the mechanic says about 20 hours to do the job, figure 3 times that much or 60 hours. My experience!

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

$70 per hour at the home field. That's plastic dollars from north of the border so in real dollars, at current exchange rates it's $52 per hour.

 

[Rcmutz]

$110 per hour.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Problem does not lie in the hourly rate, but in the hours. My experience has been that if the mechanic says about 20 hours to do the job, figure 3 times that much or 60 hours. My experience!

This is so true.

 

[chemgeek]

Both my avionics guy and my local mechanic charge $75/hr. I figure that's a bargain. They do good work.