How much can we complain and demand for free

[drgwentzel]

Flyers:

There was an article in AVWeb called "Who's working against your favorite apps?"


This article appears to be concerned that the FAA will start charging what is deserved for its aviation database information. It is stated that what we pay now to ForeFlight or WingX per year might double. Well, whoop-de-doo! 75 dollars verses 150.

Their concern was that WingX might lose users because of this and gave an analogy of, “What if Toyota doubled its price of the Camary?" Please! There is a BIG difference between 25K and 50K, and 75 dollars verses 150 dollars. One will break you, and other means you might have to sacrifice one night out to dinner and actually prepare your own meal that day. Please!

The FAA is already losing millions by the loss of electronic media dissemination of the charts they create and put together. Now the FAA is going to give us free weather and traffic in the cockpit and do we really have the nerve to *****-it-up about 75 dollars per year for the greatest free services in the world that they already provide us?
User fees are a real threat, but please, let's pick our battles and not nit-pick everything.

The way I look at it, we are a minority of golfers who play golf on an expensive country club and aren't happy that the entire country pays our green's fees and our country club memberships. NOW, we're bitching that they aren't going to buy us our golf balls and tee's too! Please!

Gene Wentzel

 

[timwinters]

+1

And, preemptively, there will be some that say "but my taxes already pay for this".

Okay.

Show me in writing what tax I pay that is specifically earmarked to pay for these chart.

Whether aviation charts or food stamps, it's welfare.

 

[ebykowsky]

But where does it end? Next we'll be paying for ATC and FSS and more ramp fees. Things gas taxes already go toward. Plus, aviation is a bit more important to our nation than golfing.

 

[poadeleted21]

The value of free information is much more than if it's only available for sale.

For instance, if they were to start charging to login/view this very site... chrip chirp chirp.

Go ahead and try to find a nice website for an overview of Canadian charts, when you get ready to head that direction, then find the competition.

It's not welfare when you pay at the pump for it. It's also not welfare when the information is free for anyone, aviation uses or not.

AND AND AND... All I need to get from A->B is is a Rand McNally road atlas from 1971, you going to make me PAY to see what laws you're subjecting me to?

You guys who want to pay for this stuff above and beyond what you already do...

 

[MAKG1]

Show me in writing what tax I pay that is specifically earmarked to pay for these chart.

Goodness gracious!

Show me in writing what tax I pay that is specifically earmarked to pay for the US Army. Should we now be charged a "protection" fee?

Taxes don't work that way. They never have.

People who think the government is like a business don't understand what government is for. It is NOT a business. It has responsibilities -- like separating aircraft -- that supersede profit.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Now pay for the airports and atc services you use. Pilots are a bunch of freeloading cheapskates.

 

[ebykowsky]

I might add that these charts save lives in the air and on the ground. It is for our nation's benefit that we have them. By charging more, fewer people will buy them and the world will become a more dangerous place.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Lives on the ground are in danger because of your hobby? We must ban your hobby for the children.
Free avgas to practice with would save lives as well, should the nation pay for that as well?

I might add that these charts save lives in the air and on the ground. It is for our nation's benefit that we have them. By charging more, fewer people will buy them and the world will become a more dangerous place.

 

[ebykowsky]

Free avgas to practice with would save lives as well, should the nation pay for that as well?

Sure!
Wait---but that would cause global warming and flood the earth, endangering more people. So never mind.

 

[timwinters]

Show me in writing what tax I pay that is specifically earmarked to pay for the US Army. Should we now be charged a "protection" fee?

Taxes don't work that way. They never have..

the point being that out taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years and we can't expect everything for free at those rates.

The electronic charts were, until recently, subsidized by the sale of paper charts. But, with the advent of foreflight, et. al., these subsidies are gone, so they need another way to pay for them.

With as much as I travel, BFF (before foreflight) I spent at least $700/yr on paper.

Now, I spend $75...

And $150 will still be a bargain.

 

[supernovae]

the point being that out taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years and we can't expect everything for free at those rates.

The electronic charts were, until recently, subsidized by the sale of paper charts. But, with the advent of foreflight, et. al., these subsidies are gone, so they need another way to pay for them.

With as much as I travel, BFF (before foreflight) I spent at least $700/yr on paper.

Now, I spend $75...

And $150 will still be a bargain.

Now all we Ned is more options than foreflight.. I so don't want an apple tax. :wink2: Hopefully other developers increase their digital chart game and compete on features & price.

 

[Luigi]

Flightplan.com is Free. But, I do use an Ipad for access. Has android app as well.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Lives on the ground are in danger because of your hobby?

Only a hobby for some.

 

[poadeleted21]

the point being that out taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years and we can't expect everything for free at those rates.

The electronic charts were, until recently, subsidized by the sale of paper charts. But, with the advent of foreflight, et. al., these subsidies are gone, so they need another way to pay for them.

With as much as I travel, BFF (before foreflight) I spent at least $700/yr on paper.

Now, I spend $75...

And $150 will still be a bargain.

You have no idea what it would cost if every chart was $0.01 a cycle. Cost isn't always measured in dollars and cents.

If you want to pay for charts, dissolve the bureaucracy that produces them, return the funds to the taxpayers, privatize the system.

 

[timwinters]

If you want to pay for charts, dissolve the bureaucracy that produces them, return the funds to the taxpayers, privatize the system.

Good idea! After all it's worked so well w/FSS.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Only a hobby for some.

Worse. Lives are in danger on the ground so someone can make pilot money? That isn't putting a very high price on our precious children.

 

[poadeleted21]

Good idea! After all it's worked so well w/FSS.

Yup, FSS has been great to me, they have my monthly route on speed dial. The conversation is pretty much "yep, me again" There were some hiccups at first but that seems to have been resolved a few years ago. AND I don't have to "insert quarter to continue"

Feel free to donate all the money you want to the treasury or whatever bureaucracy you want, please don't demand I do. I'm convinced I'm paying my fair share, if my tax check (that's probably going to at least double this year) wasn't enough to cover a few maps, I have a Bonanza for sale.

Truthfully, I have no problem paying for the maps, It aint the money, it's the freedom they allow/innovation they inspire by being freely available that I worry about, not the money.

Hell, I learned what a GEOTIFF was and how to load it into a GIS server and how to query it and plot routes.... because the maps were free. No, I wouldn't have paid one cent to learn it, because I'm not in the business of creating software that I have to charge for because the bureaucracy needs a cut. And no, I'm not going to write software for free in my spare time that would have a market value of tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars if I know I HAVE to charge for it because I have to pay a bureacracy on a per user basis.

The computer I'm typing this on, has GeoServer loaded on it, the Sectional GEOTIFFS imported into a PostGIS database hooked to mod_tile and mapnik. I'm working on my very own software for routing etc... and currently trying to figure out how to get it all on an iPad/Android. Charge ONE CENT for the maps, I format the hard drive, install X-Plane 10 and shoot practice approaches instead, I have a nice CH Products yoke and a fresh copy of X-Plane 10 that I haven't used.

 

[Ted]

I would agree that I don't see why this should be provided for free, and that pilots should stop complaining. All the tools we have for free these days are incredible, yet people just seem to complain and want more. I have no issues paying a bit more for charts. As Tim pointed out, it's still a bargain vs. what it was.

 

[poadeleted21]

I would agree that I don't see why this should be provided for free, and that pilots should stop complaining. All the tools we have for free these days are incredible, yet people just seem to complain and want more. I have no issues paying a bit more for charts. As Tim pointed out, it's still a bargain vs. what it was.

Very few of those great tools would exist if the chart's weren't public domain. And the ones that would exist, you'd probably be on here bitching about how much Jeppesen charges for them and how somebody ought to do something about the Garmin/Jeppesn monopoly.

 

[Ted]

Very few of those great tools would exist if the chart's weren't public domain. And the ones that would exist, you'd probably be on here bitching about how much Jeppesen charges for them and how somebody ought to do something about the Garmin/Jeppesn monopoly.

I don't really complain about that, because I understand the market. And I disagree that the services wouldn't be there - most people would be happy paying the marginally higher costs.

Jepp does charge a good bit of money, they also provide a good service for the money, and I've always gotten good customer service from them.

Garmin charges a bunch of money, but nobody can argue the quality of their products. Their customer service is crap.

There is minimal competition because we live in a very small market. The market is small because a relatively small portion of the population have much of a need, and the rest of the people in it are in it for fun. Those are the ones who seem to complain about things not being free.

 

[Ted]

I also go to Canada and pay user fees when I go there. I don't see a problem with it - I'm using their airspace, so I pay for it. I don't expect it to get subsidized. While I am against user fees for other reasons, if they come to pass in this country, I'll go ahead and pay for them.

If we want this stuff to be free, taxes need to go up. But it seems to me nobody wants taxes to go up, and nobody wants to give up any services. Hmm...

 

[Everskyward]

There is minimal competition because we live in a very small market. The market is small because a relatively small portion of the population have much of a need, and the rest of the people in it are in it for fun. Those are the ones who seem to complain about things not being free.

The ones who are not doing if for fun generally do not need to purchase their own charts. In any case, charts are a cost of doing business and a pretty small cost compared to some of the other costs. As [cough] frugal as some companies are, some have still not moved on to electronic charts and are still paying Jepp for paper subscriptions.

 

[poadeleted21]

I also go to Canada and pay user fees when I go there. I don't see a problem with it - I'm using their airspace, so I pay for it. I don't expect it to get subsidized. While I am against user fees for other reasons, if they come to pass in this country, I'll go ahead and pay for them.

If we want this stuff to be free, taxes need to go up. But it seems to me nobody wants taxes to go up, and nobody wants to give up any services. Hmm...

If there's truly a need for increased revenue for a bureaucracy (which I can only giggle while I type it because the notion is SOOO absurd). Raise the taxes already in place, at the fuel pump, I see no need for a new "Bureaucracy of Aviation Fee Collection".

If you go to Canada often, you'll also note the lack of their information on the internet in comparison to the US aviation information and how you're pigeon holed into using paper products or god forbid that one horrendous free website that has a marginal amount of info about the Canadian airspace. I was actually at a Canadian airport and had to walk my ass about a mile (not that it hurt me) back across the ramp out to my plane to get my PAPER charts out to get from Lethbridge to Calgary, the entire time thinking "This is %^&*( ridiculous" . I also had to wait on the charts to arrive from Sporty's before I could even begin to flight plan my trip to Calgary. Yeah, I know, first world problems, but you're saying "pay more for less" and had I just decided to go to Calgary on a whim instead of a month in advance, there was no good source of information to get me there.

I've directed MANY kids (think of the children) and innocent bystanders to the sectional chart section of the FAA website, you think they're going to spend their allowance on $150 charts?

The value of the charts being free is in the FREEDOM that the public domain provides, not in pilots bank statements. We're either broke already or too rich to care. Free as in Freedom, not free as in beer.

 

[Michele]

the point being that out taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years and we can't expect everything for free at those rates.

The electronic charts were, until recently, subsidized by the sale of paper charts. But, with the advent of foreflight, et. al., these subsidies are gone, so they need another way to pay for them.

With as much as I travel, BFF (before foreflight) I spent at least $700/yr on paper.

Now, I spend $75...

And $150 will still be a bargain.

I agree with the idea that no one else should pay for my pleasures. And you're right, last Fall, after getting Foreflight, I cancelled hundreds of dollars of subscriptions; three A D/F, several TACs, bunches of Sectionals, WACs, etc.

What has happened is that the money still gets paid out, only it's redistributed. Foreflight gets $150 (yes, I get the geo referenced version), Apple got ~$1000 for my 64 gig iPad and all the extra little iPad apps and gizmos. [will probably need to upgrade the iPad in a year or two]

In the end, I pay more for charts with Foreflight than I did with the government. But, for that extra money I get a better product, infinitely easier to use, more versatile, seamless and always current. My hobby and the skill are greatly enhanced. If the government had kept up with the times and produced a better product, they wouldn't have lost market share. But, in the end, still it is they who produces the charts and they aren't getting much of the revenue.

I get more product utility, private industry is making a killing and the FAA who makes the charts aren't getting much satisfaction. I don't know how to [use] GEOTFF or get computers to do much beyond what little I already know. So, to keep the status quo, I have no problem paying an extra $75/yr.

 

[Michele]

If there's truly a need for increased revenue for a bureaucracy (which I can only giggle while I type it because the notion is SOOO absurd). Raise the taxes already in place, at the fuel pump, I see no need for a new "Bureaucracy of Aviation Fee Collection".

The value of the charts being free is in the FREEDOM that the public domain provides, not in pilots bank statements. We're either broke already or too rich to care. Free as in Freedom, not free as in beer.

Oh, okay, silly me...this isn't an aviation discussion. You want to talk about freedom? Get otta town. This is America, not much for free-certainly not freedom. But, I don't like to mix my aviation with politics so ...good luck....I'm going flying.

 

[poadeleted21]

I agree with the idea that no one else should pay for my pleasures. And you're right, last Fall, after getting Foreflight, I cancelled hundreds of dollars of subscriptions; three A D/F, several TACs, bunches of Sectionals, WACs, etc.

What has happened is that the money still gets paid out, only it's redistributed. Foreflight gets $150 (yes, I get the geo referenced version), Apple got ~$1000 for my 64 gig iPad and all the extra little iPad apps and gizmos. [will probably need to upgrade the iPad in a year or two]

In the end, I pay more for charts with Foreflight than I did with the government. But, for that extra money I get a better product, infinitely easier to use, more versatile, seamless and always current. My hobby and the skill are greatly enhanced. If the government had kept up with the times and produced a better product, they wouldn't have lost market share. But, in the end, still it is they who produces the charts and they aren't getting much of the revenue.

I get more product utility, private industry is making a killing and the FAA who makes the charts aren't getting much satisfaction. I don't know how to [use] GEOTFF or get computers to do much beyond what little I already know. So, to keep the status quo, I have no problem paying an extra $75/yr.

I do, and I have no hang ups about computering up GEOTIFFs in a nice usable format for you for free. Am I going to pay 150 bucks for the privilege? Not a chance. Is jeppesen going to? You betcha and they're going to charge you $150 for their time and another $300 for the charts that they're paying $150 for.... that's what they already do. Not mad at Jeppesen, I own all their books and think they're a great company, but why demand to pay more to be monopolized? As yes, they overcharge and price gouge for their database updates... because they can.

Because you don't know how, doesn't mean other people like... Oh I dunno, the guy who runs http://vfrmap.com/ doesn't and are donating what's probably a market rate of $100+/hr of their time for you to enjoy the fruits of their labor.. Demand that everyone pay more taxes for the charts and free private sector labor goes bye bye.

 

[jtheune]

the point being that out taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years and we can't expect everything for free at those rates.

The electronic charts were, until recently, subsidized by the sale of paper charts. But, with the advent of foreflight, et. al., these subsidies are gone, so they need another way to pay for them.

With as much as I travel, BFF (before foreflight) I spent at least $700/yr on paper.

Now, I spend $75...

And $150 will still be a bargain.

While it has little to do with this argument, I will point out that your statement that taxes are at their lowest rate in 60 years is completely wrong. Total taxes are much higher then they have been in the past, the biggest difference being the many more layers of taxes we pay. What is low is the Federal income tax, which is only one of many.

 

[poadeleted21]

Oh, okay, silly me...this isn't an aviation discussion. You want to talk about freedom? Get otta town. This is America, not much for free-certainly not freedom. But, I don't like to mix my aviation with politics so ...good luck....I'm going flying.

I'm not talking politically (other than the ridiculous thought that the bureaucracies we have need more funding ). I'm talking personal freedoms, your freedom to be creative and innovate without fear of legal consequences and the freedom to share that innovation and creativity with others freely (not necessarily for $0.00) .
The second those charts cost $0.01, its a commercial market for profit and the hobbyist portion (that has contributed tons to the greater good) goes away instantly.

 

[Ted]

The ones who are not doing if for fun generally do not need to purchase their own charts. In any case, charts are a cost of doing business and a pretty small cost compared to some of the other costs. As [cough] frugal as some companies are, some have still not moved on to electronic charts and are still paying Jepp for paper subscriptions.

I look at it as a pretty small cost overall. If you're a leisure pilot and travel a small area, then you only need a small number of charts and can still buy those cheaply. If you're like me and go everywhere, you can buy one of the setups with a large number of charts for more money. Either way, the charts represent a small portion of the total cost, so I don't really see much reason for complaining about it.

 

[Ted]

If there's truly a need for increased revenue for a bureaucracy (which I can only giggle while I type it because the notion is SOOO absurd). Raise the taxes already in place, at the fuel pump, I see no need for a new "Bureaucracy of Aviation Fee Collection".

Avoiding response as I don't want to get this Spin Zoned.

If you go to Canada often, you'll also note the lack of their information on the internet in comparison to the US aviation information and how you're pigeon holed into using paper products or god forbid that one horrendous free website that has a marginal amount of info about the Canadian airspace. I was actually at a Canadian airport and had to walk my ass about a mile (not that it hurt me) back across the ramp out to my plane to get my PAPER charts out to get from Lethbridge to Calgary, the entire time thinking "This is %^&*( ridiculous" . I also had to wait on the charts to arrive from Sporty's before I could even begin to flight plan my trip to Calgary. Yeah, I know, first world problems, but you're saying "pay more for less" and had I just decided to go to Calgary on a whim instead of a month in advance, there was no good source of information to get me there.

Welcome to how US charts were, oh, 5 years ago.

You are correct that Canada's aviation website has less information than the US aviation website. It is also free, and Canada has a much smaller population. There is a lot of Canada that doesn't have weather radar. If you fly up there, you'll understand why - there's nobody up there. Mari probably knows better if there are electronic solutions for Canada - I just go with the paper plates. I suppose I'm not seeing your point here.

I've directed MANY kids (think of the children) and innocent bystanders to the sectional chart section of the FAA website, you think they're going to spend their allowance on $150 charts?

Nope, but since they aren't flying with them, either, you could just give them old ones which are just as useful, and give them some paper to touch.

The value of the charts being free is in the FREEDOM that the public domain provides, not in pilots bank statements. We're either broke already or too rich to care. Free as in Freedom, not free as in beer.

Freedom and free stuff are different. You are free to travel, that doesn't mean that the government is required to provide you with a means of transportation. The FAA actually does a remarkable number of things for free, unlike, say the DMV.

 

[poadeleted21]

I look at it as a pretty small cost overall. If you're a leisure pilot and travel a small area, then you only need a small number of charts and can still buy those cheaply. If you're like me and go everywhere, you can buy one of the setups with a large number of charts for more money. Either way, the charts represent a small portion of the total cost, so I don't really see much reason for complaining about it.

The way you're not looking at is the way the 16 year old computer prodigy with a passion for flying who's sitting in his bedroom with no money in his pocket and running a pirated verson of X-Plane does, analysing those charts and coding great things from them. You're looking at it from a consumer point a view and a "What can I afford?" angle. The current products won't be there with a different model. It's the corporate mentality we're trained like dogs to follow. Pavlov would be proud. You're assuming the products in the current model will be there for your purchase in another model. There will be some, they will be expensive, they will be limited and that kid who dreams in C will be applying his skill set elsewhere in another industry. I don't give a **** about "What it cost me". I'd donate my Bonanza to the FAA and never fly again as long as the charts remain free.

 

[Everskyward]

If you go to Canada often, you'll also note the lack of their information on the internet in comparison to the US aviation information and how you're pigeon holed into using paper products or god forbid that one horrendous free website that has a marginal amount of info about the Canadian airspace.

Fltplan.com has Canadian charts and airport information.

 

[poadeleted21]

Avoiding response as I don't want to get this Spin Zoned.



Welcome to how US charts were, oh, 5 years ago.

You are correct that Canada's aviation website has less information than the US aviation website. It is also free, and Canada has a much smaller population. There is a lot of Canada that doesn't have weather radar. If you fly up there, you'll understand why - there's nobody up there. Mari probably knows better if there are electronic solutions for Canada - I just go with the paper plates. I suppose I'm not seeing your point here.



Nope, but since they aren't flying with them, either, you could just give them old ones which are just as useful, and give them some paper to touch.



Freedom and free stuff are different. You are free to travel, that doesn't mean that the government is required to provide you with a means of transportation. The FAA actually does a remarkable number of things for free, unlike, say the DMV.

Nope, old charts aren't just as useful, there's plenty of kids today, using those digital charts and flying flight sims, hell I do. They're sending their buddies links to do just the same. If I put up digital copies for free, I'd be sued or jailed, if I hand out one stale sectional one kid gets one stale sectional.

Yep, freedom isn't the same as free. We pay out the ass for those charts already so they're not "free as in beer" free, and you want to pay more to restrict" free as in freedom" access from the masses.

 

[poadeleted21]

Fltplan.com has Canadian charts and airport information.

And I hate that site.

 

[Fearless Tower]

And I hate that site.

???
You hate Fltplan.com?

If true, you would actually be the first person I have ever heard say that.

 

[SCCutler]

There are some logical disconnects, in the whole chart issue. The FAA dramatically constricts the availability of charts to FBOs, making them much more difficult to buy (essentially eliminating the ability of all but the largest FBOs to sell charts), then they **** and moan about reduced chart revenues.

Nonetheless, a reduction in chart sales revenue was inevitable with the increase in electronic chart use, so a new revenue model was called for. Where the FAA's apprach thus far fails is that they intend to charge the entities distributing charts with pricing based upon volume - the larger the volume, the lower the price per user. Inasmuch as the FAA has a fixed price for producing the charts (electronically), this has the effect of promoting established vendors and creating disadvantage for new entrants. Not a good idea.

Plus, them excluding the press from the briefings on the whole process creates a stench, a presumption of corruption that is unfortunate.

 

[BillTIZ]

LAS to PMER and back, through Canada.
US charts, AF/D, IAP on iPad. To include Alaska.
Canada charts, AF/D, IAP on paper.
That AF/D and IAP books are huge.

I could have had Canadian data on the iPad, but I would have had to pay a years subscription to ForeFlight for one months need.

 

[poadeleted21]

???
You hate Fltplan.com?

If true, you would actually be the first person I have ever heard say that.

Signed up twice, hated it more the 2nd time, is why I'm writing my own. The only other one I like is the AOPA/Jeppesen one since runwayfinder went TU. Mine is based 100% off FREE software and data (GeoServer, Linux, PostGIS, mod_tile, mapnik, FAA data and a lot of my own code some that I have contributed to mapnik). I'll put it out for free, assuming the charts stay free. Probably sell it if it's successful, it would never exist if I had to pay for charts. My company even has a vested interest in me succeeding after I used a portion of it for some stuff at work and they liked it (I get to work on it at work some now too). But hey, you guys can afford $600 bucks per year from Jeppesen, so who cares?

 

[Everskyward]

And I hate that site.

I happen to like fltplan.com and use it all the time. You wanted to know where you could find Canadian charts and that's the best place I've found, that is, besides the Jepp subscription we have.

 

[poadeleted21]

I happen to like fltplan.com and use it all the time. You wanted to know where you could find Canadian charts and that's the best place I've found.

acukwik is the only one I was aware of that had any Canadian info on it, and it uses google maps. I'd rather use that than fltplan.com I do not understand why people like fltplan.com, it's atrocious. But hey, I'm glad you like it, cause there's not much else, and folks around here apparently want to pay to have acukwik vs fltplan as their options.