How many passed their CFI Initial Checkride on the first try?

[PHXAvi8tor]

Well, here I go again, cross-posting between this forum and the "red" one.

Personally, this place is much friendlier!

I'm trying to collect some data, no matter how statistically flawed, on how many passed the CFI Initial checkride the first time.

The reason is that we hear a lot of rumor and talk about the high failure rate.

I scoured the FAA Web site, and could not find statistics. Maybe they don't keep them. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.

But, any and all honest answers appreciated here!

Thanks!

 

[KennyFlys]

I've heard it stated Atlanta FSDO has an average 90% failure rate while the DPEs out of Atlanta FSDO have an average 80% pass rate. The DPE who handled my IR ride and will handle my CPL ride once stated he was called on the carpet because he had an 85% pass rate for CFI's.

For the last couple year's it's been pretty hard to get a CFI ride with a DPE. The FSDO will hold on to them for any ride that's scheduled within two weeks but will try to keep them in house up to thirty days out. A couple larger schools have sent CFI candidates up to Nashville for a better chance of getting a quickly-scheduled ride with a DPE.

 

[tonycondon]

DPEs get almost all rides in IA. I passed my first try, not sure what the stats are in the state.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I missed a question on the mechanics of one of the flight instruments. Passed the next day with the FAA examiner.
Jeepers, I'm just a damn good aircraft pilot, I don't know what makes them go!
IA add on passed first try.

 

[bkreager]

IIRC, there is about a 50% failure rate from the community college I went to. I took the ride at the FSDO and it seems to be on par with what I've heard from others that went to DPEs.

 

[Bill M.]

Did my initial CFI in 1987 when the DPEs were doing it and passed on the first ride. The Feds started doing the initial CFI rides shortly after and the pass rate was abyssmal. A friend took his ride with the FSDO and failed because his final approach airspeed "was 3 knots off." He took it again a couple of weeks later and they made one quick landing and he passed.
Rumor had it that the Feds really didn't want to do the initial CFI rides and so they flunked large numbers of candidates for insignificant errors.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Rumor had it that the Feds really didn't want to do the initial CFI rides and so they flunked large numbers of candidates for insignificant errors.

My initial FAA examiner seemed very happy to get "out of the office" for a few days, let alone go flying, and even said so.

 

[Pilawt]

I passed on the first one, but maybe things would be different now than they were in 1971.

-- Pilawt

 

[midlifeflyer]

Do you mean you're supposed to pass before teaching?

 

[Don Jones]

My initial FAA examiner seemed very happy to get "out of the office" for a few days, let alone go flying, and even said so.

Mine also commented how he would rather be out flying with me than working
in the office. When we finished he told me that when I got ready to do the
II to be sure to give him a call and he would do it.

 

[KennyFlys]

Do you mean you're supposed to pass before teaching?

It's not required in government schools!

 

[poadeleted20]

It's not required in government schools!

I'm curious to know which government instructor school doesn't require its students to pass before assigning them to instructing duties.

 

[Ghery]

I'm curious to know which government instructor school doesn't require its students to pass before assigning them to instructing duties.

I 'think' he's referring to the old saying "close enough for government work".

 

[RogerT]

I did my initial CFI in a helicopter with the FAA .. passed 1st try ..
did the fixed wing add on with the FAA and passed first try.

 

[dc2495]

I've passed all my rides the first time around...had an interesting mix of examiners too. I've hade DPE's FAA assigned DPE (for my Initial CFI), in-house 141 examiner, and a DPE who happens to be our chief pilot now. I know when I was working on my initial the rumors were kind of overwhelming...70% failure rate etc, I thought for sure I was going to fail. For some reason I always expect he rides to be much harder than they actually are. The FAA certainly tried to do all the CFI rides, but they just didn't have time, so they farmed them out to examiners they thought would do a good job.

 

[Teller1900]

Last I heard that PHX FSDO had about an 80-90% fail rate on the first try. That's why I went to LAS (actually VGT). I was supposed to go with the FSDO, but got a really awesome DE (Gary Hasterock, use him if you're in the Vegas area!) because the FSDO was too busy and passed on the first try. I had two roommates that failed the first and two that passed the first time with the LAS FSDO.

 

[bobmrg]

Does a ride in 1968 count? FSDO practices have tightened up a lot since then.

Bob Gardner

 

[Baron 55]

I passed first time during a spell when, according to "common knowledge," no one, and that means no one, was passing first time. My CFI had even set up some follow-up flights on his schedule so I'd have first shot at flying with him to prepare for the retest.

Yes, some people began to leave our area for the checkride, going to another FSDO region. Then, after a bunch of them passed first time there, our FSDO somehow got someone to order the other FSDO to refuse scheduling rides for anyone calling from our area.

But it's a game of sorts. The FSDO ride isn't remotely about how well an applicant can teach. Example: my last CFI candidate failed on the preflight when the inspector had him get some tools, remove the engine cowling on a 172RG. He then tugged on a bundle of wires along the firewall and asked what each wire was for. My applicant, who was a PhD. engineering student with a job waiting at Boeing for his graduation, missed a wire and was busted. The inspector came into our building laughing. I happened to own the airplane and went out with my very dejected applicant to look at the wires. Without the checkride pressure, we were able to figure it out, each wire in the bundle. On the retest, he passed with flying colors. Things such as that point to a fail-no-matter-what attitude on the inspector.

I had another applicant fail after the inspector told him he had passed and would he let him, the inpsector, do a landing back at home field as he hadn't done one in a couple months in that model plane. The applicant felt a trick coming, so he said no way. The inspector browbeat him ["Look, I already told you that you passed, for Christ's sake just let me do one landing, for my own fun"] til he finally said, ok, and let him have the controls. The inspector did the landing but came in a bit fast, then busted the applicant for allowing him to do it.

Total garbage. Both applicants were extremely well prepared. Oh, well. Like I said, it's a game. You have to be prepared and do your best.

 

[jdwatson]

I detest this game playing, especially with 100LL $6.20/gal. I'm all for making sure CFI candidates are up to the task, but there has to be bounds. What if the CFI candidate with the wire question, just said, "Let me go get the maintenance manual and we can know all about all of the wires." ?? I don't expect any CFI/MEI to know the systems down to the wire, without access to reference materials. Perhaps a AMT candidate but not a flight instructor.

 

[Baron 55]

The "wire" applicant did respond that he needed to go over to the shop and get a manual, it was denied. By the way, for any CFI candidates or students out there, the PTS for CFI has no requirement that applicants know every wire and bolt and part of the plane they present for the practical. I have always made sure that my students know something about powerplants and elec. systems and etc., to the point of removing cowlings or going over to the shop we use and looking around inside engine compartments and the like. In fact, the students are usually very interested. I even have built a collection of old engine parts I can lay out on a table to show valve operation, push rods, pistons, crank, etc., as some people have virtually no knowledge of this sort of thing. However, to follow the course of a fuel line or wire or anything else is above and beyond what the CFI candidate is supposed to be able to regurgitate. This inspector simply wanted to bust the guy.

Same deal with the "landing" candidate. I knew the inspector, and he'd been very reasonable over the years and I'd never had a bust with him. I asked him why he told my candidate that he'd passed, and etc., and I'm a little hazy but the response was something along the lines of "I just wanted to see how far he'd let me browbeat him." He admitted to me that the student had had a "really solid, good flight" and that the oral had gone "near perfect." Again, he just wanted to bust the guy.

 

[jdwatson]

That's just sad...

The "wire" applicant did respond that he needed to go over to the shop and get a manual, it was denied. By the way, for any CFI candidates or students out there, the PTS for CFI has no requirement that applicants know every wire and bolt and part of the plane they present for the practical. I have always made sure that my students know something about powerplants and elec. systems and etc., to the point of removing cowlings or going over to the shop we use and looking around inside engine compartments and the like. In fact, the students are usually very interested. I even have built a collection of old engine parts I can lay out on a table to show valve operation, push rods, pistons, crank, etc., as some people have virtually no knowledge of this sort of thing. However, to follow the course of a fuel line or wire or anything else is above and beyond what the CFI candidate is supposed to be able to regurgitate. This inspector simply wanted to bust the guy.

Same deal with the "landing" candidate. I knew the inspector, and he'd been very reasonable over the years and I'd never had a bust with him. I asked him why he told my candidate that he'd passed, and etc., and I'm a little hazy but the response was something along the lines of "I just wanted to see how far he'd let me browbeat him." He admitted to me that the student had had a "really solid, good flight" and that the oral had gone "near perfect." Again, he just wanted to bust the guy.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm curious to know which government instructor school doesn't require its students to pass before assigning them to instructing duties.

Well, I can state that in the DOJ, whenever training was presented except the various academy classes like Basic Agent which resulted in someone being hired, training providers were discouraged from having exams. We issued certificates of completion or attendance, but did not grade students or pass or fail them. Was a big change for me from the military where a test was part of EVERY course of instruction.

 

[121Dispatch]

That's just sad...

Very true - IMHO that type of situation needs to be passed up the chain. If the FAA Examiners are being directed to increase the failure rate, they should find ways to do it based on PTS issues - not inventing their own standards to make it happen. If the applicant is sucessful at meeting and/or exceeding standards, they shouldn't be penalized because of quotas.

 

[FLYIN' LION]

I busted one of my CFI rides on the first attempt, I'm pretty sure it was my initial CFI. I can't blame anyone but myself as I busted on the oral--young and unprepared (1993). I passed the CFII ride on the first try, though (and haven't flown on istruments since).


EDIT: to say I took my rides in Michigan (Battle Creek) and the examiner was private.

 

[KennyFlys]

I had another applicant fail after the inspector told him he had passed and would he let him, the inpsector, do a landing back at home field as he hadn't done one in a couple months in that model plane. The applicant felt a trick coming, so he said no way. The inspector browbeat him ["Look, I already told you that you passed, for Christ's sake just let me do one landing, for my own fun"] til he finally said, ok, and let him have the controls. The inspector did the landing but came in a bit fast, then busted the applicant for allowing him to do it.

Total garbage. Both applicants were extremely well prepared. Oh, well. Like I said, it's a game. You have to be prepared and do your best.

Are you sure that wasn't a test of the CFI candidate's stand as PIC? If the candidate stands up to the "all powerful" DPE, he's more likely to take command of his students activities.

After I passed my final check flight with the chief today, I rode with him and another student headed out for his CFI initial next week. The student is headed for Florida where I heard it's said some CFI rides last as little as two hours just on the oral. That's where he ended up going or get put off a month or more. If those at this school had a choice, they would send him to the same DPE who did my ride. As it is, Ben does many of the PPL, CPL and IR rides along with CFI add-ons.

 

[TMetzinger]

The GARBAGE in that situation is that if the Inspector says "you passed", and thus implying the checkride is over he's got no business busting you later.

 

[colomtnflyer]

Passed mine on the first try, especially after dealing with wind shear on 2 of the landings! The DPE seemed happy enough with how I dealt with it...
Got the paperwork done, and about 2 hrs later, taught my first lesson!

Never had so much fun in my life! And still having fun !