How Many Overhauls

Dennis M Carleton

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Is there a limit as to how many times an engine can be overhauled? In my search for a plane, I'm seeing some engines having 6000+ TT and are on their 3rd overhaul. Is this too much?

Dennis
 
Is there a limit as to how many times an engine can be overhauled? In my search for a plane, I'm seeing some engines having 6000+ TT and are on their 3rd overhaul. Is this too much?

Dennis
yes there is, but it is not a set number. it depends on what has to be done at overhaul. there is only so much that can be taken off the crank journals, and the cases. but not every overhaul requires a crank to be turned or a case to be decked. I have a crank on the shelf that was prepped for the second overhauld on the engine and it is still a zero/zero crank. only needed to be polished both times. so the answer is there is not a set amout.
 
The guy who has George Washington’s axe, the one he cut down the cherry tree as a kid, comes to mind. The handle had been replaced several times and the axe head at least twice, but Washington’s axe it was.

As long as the components remain in spec, there is no real limit. But there may be concerns about fatigue issues that cannot be adequately inspected that might be an issue for some.
 
Is there a limit as to how many times an engine can be overhauled?
Technically, an engine by serial number can be overhauled or rebuilt an infinite number of times provided all the parts meet the required specs. If an individual part does not meet those specs then it is replaced as part of the overhaul. So regardless the number of overhauls the engine still meets the required specifications.
Is this too much?
No. As there is no life tracking of most individual recip engine parts they are all on condition when it comes to replacement. So there is a good possibility there are many individual parts that maybe on their 10th or 20th overhaul cycle. Even in a factory rebuilt engine that comes with a TSN: -0- logbook could have used parts that meet new tolerances.
 
No limit….so long as it measures within limits. I’d rather have an old high time crank than a new untested one.
 
Is there a limit as to how many times an engine can be overhauled? In my search for a plane, I'm seeing some engines having 6000+ TT and are on their 3rd overhaul. Is this too much?

Dennis

Maybe, it depends on the engine and how it was operated.
 
Some part have min/max a measurement it must meet. Those parts are not replaced unless they are out of that specification.

Others parts are simply thrown away every time a certain maintenance/service is done.

Do brand new $50k+ engines have used, but 'within new specificactions' parts? I would hope not, but it would not a illegal / wrong.
 
Do brand new $50k+ engines have used, but 'within new specificactions' parts? I would hope not, but it would not a illegal / wrong.
No. All new.

Even the factory overhauled or rebuilt engines are full of new parts. Sometimes the crankcase is about the only thing reused. It's cheaper for the factory to grab new stuff than to put a lot of labor into saving old stuff, especially cylinders and camshafts. I never received a Lycoming factory overhauled engine that didn't have new cylinders, pistons, camshaft, lifters, mags, and sometimes a brand-new carb. Once or twice I ordered a factory overhauled engine and got a brand-new engine at the overhaul price. They do run out of useable cores. Some cores will be beyond economical repair, and others just never come back---they end up in homebuilts.
 
No. All new.

Even the factory overhauled or rebuilt engines are full of new parts. Sometimes the crankcase is about the only thing reused.

Minor point of order. You cannot say 'all new' then list things that they will recycle.

There is not $50k worth of stuff in an engine to begin with, and they may make a few hundred engines a year... So for no other reason than profitability i am quite sure they will reuses what they can.

Whats even more redonkulious is that $50k comes with a measly 2 year warranty which is parts only.

Why people pay a premium for something with such a poor warranty is unbelievable to me.
 
Minor point of order. You cannot say 'all new' then list things that they will recycle.

There is not $50k worth of stuff in an engine to begin with, and they may make a few hundred engines a year... So for no other reason than profitability i am quite sure they will reuses what they can.

Whats even more redonkulious is that $50k comes with a measly 2 year warranty which is parts only.

Why people pay a premium for something with such a poor warranty is unbelievable to me.
Pay attention. You asked:
Do brand new $50k+ engines have used, but 'within new specificactions' parts?

...and I said:
No. All new.

Brand-new engines have all new parts. Get it now?

Then I went on to say that overhauled and rebuilt engines will have a lot of new parts as well, but not all of the parts are new unless they don't have a core to rebuild and then they might send you a new engine.

Still lost?

There is indeed not $50K worth of parts in an aircraft engine, but there is a lot more money in its parts than in a car's engine. Nearly 100 million cars built worldwide in a year, while there are only around 1100 airplanes built worldwide in a year. Almost 91,000 times as many cars as airplanes. Economies of scale have a lot to do with the costs. Then there's the labor to assemble and test. Then there's the liability, which means liability insurance must be bought for the 18-year liability period for that engine. All of it adds up. Those that can't stand this should take up some other hobby. Aviation was, is, and always will be expensive.
 
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Whats even more redonkulious is that $50k comes with a measly 2 year warranty which is parts only.

Why people pay a premium for something with such a poor warranty is unbelievable to me.

Small batch manufacturing of precision hardware is expensive. Paperwork and quality control on all things aviation is expensive.

And they do get to make a return on whatever their investment is.

If there was a better mousetrap, someone would be getting rich off of it.
 
The guy who has George Washington’s axe, the one he cut down the cherry tree as a kid, comes to mind. The handle had been replaced several times and the axe head at least twice, but Washington’s axe it was.

Sounds like my Taylorcraft... at one point it got a new factory fuselage, at another time the wings were replaced with a set of "good used wings". Near as I could figure the only original parts were the landing gear and the instrument panel, but only three of the instruments.

We won't even talk about some restored planes where the only original things are the data plate and a couple of pieces of paper...
 
Small batch manufacturing of precision hardware is expensive. Paperwork and quality control on all things aviation is expensive.
And when you look at the list of engine models the OEMs make, then realize that many of those get produced in tiny numbers per year---like two or three engines or maybe none at all--you see that they can't hope to sell them at the price of a car's engine that might have been built in Asia at low labor rates, or in North America by automated machinery. The popular Lyc O-360, for example, comes in 74 models. And that's just the carbureted versions. I count 81 versions of the IO-360.

And that's just the 360 series. Add in the 235, the 320, the 390, the 540, the GO-480, the other geared engines, all the turboed models, and it gets fantastically complicated. There are major differences between many of those models in just one displacement line, so that there's little or no parts commonality with many of them. Some people have been reporting long waits for replacement engines because the factory has to get the tooling out and build them.
 
We won't even talk about some restored planes where the only original things are the data plate and a couple of pieces of paper...
Why not? At one time that was the way things were done especially with tube and fabric aircraft. I doubt you'll find very many Stearmans with original metal. As long as you started with a piece of the original primary structure you could/can repair the entire aircraft from that. Then there is building aircraft from salvage or scrap that is still valid except they changed the requirements if you want a standard airworthiness certificate issued. So as you have personally seen with your T-craft, it is a perfectly acceptable way to keep these aircraft flying legally.
 
Why not? At one time that was the way things were done especially with tube and fabric aircraft. I doubt you'll find very many Stearmans with original metal.... So as you have personally seen with your T-craft, it is a perfectly acceptable way to keep these aircraft flying legally.
Oh, I know, and personally have no problem with it. The old joke is, "jack up the data plate, slide a new airplane under it, and lower the data plate into place." The FAA isn't thrilled when the data plate is the only piece of original metal, though they usually look the other way.
 
The FAA isn't thrilled when the data plate is the only piece of original metal,
Not really. They’re simply not thrilled when someone doesn’t follow the rules to slide those new parts under the data plate. For example, there are a number of STCs/field approvals out there that allow moving data plates to new parts. Plus the FAA still allows building aircraft from surplus and spare parts. Unfortunately it’s the increasing numbers of people who don’t follow those rules that cause all the issues for the legit installs.
though they usually look the other way.
In my experience, its not so much as “looking away” as it is very hard to find and catch these operations. Usually it takes an accident or a disgruntled buyer to find these illegal aircraft. Matter of fact since the 90s there has been a concerted effort to weed out people who wish to swap data plates/histories solely for personal gain. For example, 20 some years ago they added more requirements to get a standard AWC for surplus/spare part aircraft and in 2018 issued Order 8100.19 to stem the increase in “illegal” repairs. However, neither effort prohibits such work performed under the existing guidance.
 
I have faith that new is "all new." Anything less is SFRM. Im sure there are enough litigators in America that the issue would have been settled and proper marketing terms were fixed long ago.
Is there a limit as to how many times an engine can be overhauled? In my search for a plane, I'm seeing some engines having 6000+ TT and are on their 3rd overhaul. Is this too much?

Dennis
Im not familiar enough to say but a thorough log book exam should tell you? This stuff should be in the engine log, right? Has the crank been turned down and how much? When were the cylinders last changed? I dont think they ever bother to bore them over and use over sized pistons, right?
[QUOTE="unsafervguy, post: 3165171, member: 9913". ...but not every overhaul requires a crank to be turned or a case to be decked. ...[/QUOTE]
Im learning. What part gets decked and why? Where the cylinders bolt on?
 
Im not familiar enough to say but a thorough log book exam should tell you? This stuff should be in the engine log, right? Has the crank been turned down and how much? When were the cylinders last changed?
Depends on who performs the work whether the detail is listed in the logbook or on a work order like used in a CRS. In a number of cases you'll only see an logbook write up stating installed overhauled engine assembly.
I dont think they ever bother to bore them over and use over sized pistons, right?
No. A number of items can be resized depending on the engine. The more common are cylinders/pistons/rings which can be oversized generally between .010"-.030"
 
I have faith that new is "all new." Anything less is SFRM. Im sure there are enough litigators in America that the issue would have been settled and proper marketing terms were fixed long ago.

Im not familiar enough to say but a thorough log book exam should tell you? This stuff should be in the engine log, right? Has the crank been turned down and how much? When were the cylinders last changed? I dont think they ever bother to bore them over and use over sized pistons, right?
[QUOTE="unsafervguy, post: 3165171, member: 9913". ...but not every overhaul requires a crank to be turned or a case to be decked. ...
Im learning. What part gets decked and why? Where the cylinders bolt on?[/QUOTE]
yes, part of the inspection is that the case is flat and square. sometimes there is fretting where the case halves go together. in that case they are allowed to surface it and remove a certain amount of material. but then it must be line bored to make crank and cam sizes true and proper. only a certain amount of material can be removed and then the case must be scrapped. same with where the cyl mount, only some much work can be done on those surfaces. same with cranks, they can only be turned so much undersize.
 
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