How many hrs for complex endorsement

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poadeleted3

Pattern Altitude
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Mar 2, 2005
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I'm getting my complex endorsement next weekend in a '72 Arrow II. At least I hope I am. I'm wondering if I'm being realistic.

I've got 4.5 hrs in another '72 Arrow II from a couple years ago. My flying will meet PPL standards, and getting better since I've gotten my butt back in the air with some regularity again. I've been practicing bunches on MSFS with an Arrow I've downloaded, just for the retract gear (kinda ugly panel, but the speeds and performance are surprisingly close to the real thing). Now, I don't think MSFS is any good at all for practicing landings, but I'm really working on getting "GUMPS" drilled into my head, with special emphasis on the "G." The FBO has said they don't have a minimum # of hours to rent the plane once I have an endorsement.

I can afford 2 hrs dual next weekend... given acceptable basic flying skills, is it really realistic to count on getting my complex endorsement in that time?
 
Just under three hours in a 172RG. But I already had a bunch of C172SP (180HP) hours so it was just a matter of doing some of the manuvers with also having to lower and raise the gear. then we did a bunch of take offs landings and pumped the gear down once. Pre-Flight we spent some extra time on systems.
 
I presume you know the oldest trick in the book on Piper retracts ... the instructor will distract you, then pop on the nav lights, which dims the 3 green enough that you don't see them in the daylight. So when you don't get 3 green, check the nav light switch first.

Know how the gear works, the failure modes, and the corrective steps. Know it cold and describe it accurately and in detail during the preflight briefing, and your flight will be shorter.

2 hours is possible, especially if you fly very tight patterns.
 
Also make double sure that the gear motor circuit breaker is pulled before you try to do a manually extension....
 
OK...given that the mission is reducing check out time the comments below are provided in that light.

Use checklists...have abbreviated ones available and use 'em for all the checklists that you probably don't use today.

Know all the speeds for the plane...there is probable at least 4 new ones to learn as compared to the planes you've been flying recently.

Ken already covered the NAV lights, gear lights trick trick.

You might get the "When can you put out the first notch of flaps?" question. Don't know if it applies to the II but IIRC in the III you can put out approach flaps at a speed above the white arc.

Know the systems...the gear is powered by an electro-hydraulic, reversible pump, the gear is held in the up position by hydraulic pressure, the alternate gear extension system works by releasing the hydraulic pressure...know the speed for alternate gear extension....know what the yellow gear unsafe light means (pump is running)...specifically know what the yellow gear unsafe light means if you are flying with the gear up and have not just commanded the gear to be in transit (it means that the pump is running to maintain hydraulic pressure to keep the gear up because you may have a hydraulic leak somewhere).

Try to sit in the plane and review where everything is so you don't have to fumble or have to look for radio switches, audio panels and other things like the alternate air.

Talk to someone who flies the plane about the best procedure for starting.

Double, tripple check that the gear lever is in the gear extended position before touching the master switch.

Find out if the CFI prefers departing with one notch of flaps or not (personally I like using a notch of flaps as I think the rotation is smoother and faster in the Arrow and in my Mooney).

If using one notch of flaps for departure find out if the CFI is a retract gear first or retract flaps first person. Note that the Arrow will (should) sound the gear horn if you retract the gear before the flaps on departure. I've observed that it freaks out some instructors when you retract the gear first and the horn goes off (personally I like retracting the gear first not only because it freaks out young CFIs but because the flaps help you fly and the gear doesn't - note consult POH 'cause not all RG aircraft are created equal).

Talk the CFI to see if he will hold the automatic gear extension by-pass lever in the up position during practice engine outs. Agree beforehand who will do so if there is a for real engine out.

Chair fly the stall series.

Don't forget about power reduction on initial climbout...most of the instructors around here go with the reduce power to 25 squared at 500 feet AGL "rule of thumb". 25 squared makes for an acceptable climb power setting. After departure remember to increase power by about 1 inch every thousand feet as you climb to maintain your climb power setting. Lots of folks use passing through each thousand feet as a reminder to reset the power...I don't as you might be doodling with the power and miss an altitude restriction (typically '000 feet increments when IFR) I use the 100's hand of the altimeter pointing toward the throttle quadrant as my reminder (about 300 to 400 feet).

24 squared makes for an acceptable cruise power setting.

While descending remember to reset power as well to your descent power setting.

18 inches is a good MP setting on downwind...adjust as required.

I forget, do Arrow IIs have cowl flaps...if so don't forget the rules for extending and retracting them...they will be/should be part of the startup, taxi and pre take off check lists...basically leave them open for the climb...close during cruise if ambient temp permits...identify proper handle and actuate to open on the after landing check lists.

Remember GUMP stands for Gear, Undercarriage, Make sure the gear is down, Put the gear down. :<)

Len
 
Len Lanetti said:
Use checklists...have abbreviated ones available and use 'em for all the checklists that you probably don't use today.
Click to expand...

And put this on your checklist:

Gear lever - Check DOWN
Master - ON
Gear lights - Three green

Know all the speeds for the plane...there is probable at least 4 new ones to learn as compared to the planes you've been flying recently.
Click to expand...

Also know what Vlo and Vle really mean.

If the II is like the III, there's one less to memorize, as on the III Vx with gear up = Vy with gear down (78 knots). I can never remember the gear-down Vx though. :dunno:

know what the yellow gear unsafe light means (pump is running)
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Maybe that's a II vs. III difference too, but in the III it's red. It's also huge and pretty much impossible to miss.

Double, tripple check that the gear lever is in the gear extended position before touching the master switch.
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Check! ;)

Talk the CFI to see if he will hold the automatic gear extension by-pass lever in the up position during practice engine outs. Agree beforehand who will do so if there is a for real engine out.
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Know whether the plane you're flying has the auto gear extension still installed, too... Many have been removed. (Good riddance.)

The Arrow is a great plane to get a complex endorsement in. Especially when the auto-extend system has been removed, the emergency extension procedure is dirt simple. Hmmm, the normal switch didn't work? OK, I'll just use this other switch instead. You may have to slip a little if the nose gear spring is weak and it doesn't extend, but it beats the heck out of all of the crank-the-gear-down systems.

Joe, with those couple of hours of Arrow time in already and your recent flying/practicing, I don't think you'll have any problem getting the endorsement in 2 hours. :yes:
 
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Joe, as far as I know, the number of hours is between you and the instructor.

Where I did mine (KVAY) we did 10 hours to meet insurance requirements (if I recall correctly -- it was a while ago).
 
Joe: Are you checking out in the Arrow at Montgomery County Aviation N1451T ? Its a decent plane. Panel configuration will be no surprise to you it has a 430 and a stall light instead of a stall horn.

The plane is acutally pretty darn fast in the pattern on cooler days I use 18mp / 24rpm in the pattern. Have fun my guess is it will take you about 2.5 for a decent check out in the plane.

Let me know how the radios are in the air. When ever I have flown that plane the static and squelch are almost enough to make you want to take the headsets off.
 
I think so, if you are very well prepared. My checkout today was exactly two hours. I had the emergency procedures MEMORIZED as well as the Vspeeds.
 
AdamZ said:
Joe: Are you checking out in the Arrow at Montgomery County Aviation N1451T ? Its a decent plane. Panel configuration will be no surprise to you it has a 430 and a stall light instead of a stall horn.

The plane is acutally pretty darn fast in the pattern on cooler days I use 18mp / 24rpm in the pattern. Have fun my guess is it will take you about 2.5 for a decent check out in the plane.

Let me know how the radios are in the air. When ever I have flown that plane the static and squelch are almost enough to make you want to take the headsets off.
Click to expand...

Yep, 51T. I've gone out and looked at that plane before, it seems to be a nice one. I hope the radios don't drive me bonkers, though. I really want to rent the Tigers from Hortman but Cathy, after much hinting that I tried to ignore, finally told me that she didn't want to make the drive. Many times, we'd spend more time driving than flying, so she does have a point.

The other option was one of the new Skyhawk SPs at Quakertown, which is only about a 1/2 hr drive. Those go for $120 hr, plus they have an older one for $90. But, with what MCA charges for the Arrow, $112 hr including fuel surcharge, that doesn't seem like the best deal, especially considering the useful load of that Arrow and the extra performance.

I still intend to rent the '78 Skyhawk at Perk Valley once or twice a month. Wish they had more than one four seater with four place intercom. And that Sean was more comfy in high wings, cause $88 hr is a pretty good rate around here!
 
Len Lanetti said:
Are you sure!?
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I remember almost being scared flicking the master switch on. I'd check that gear down about 10 times..and just waited for the airplane to fall on it's face.
 
jangell said:
I remember almost being scared flicking the master switch on. I'd check that gear down about 10 times..and just waited for the airplane to fall on it's face.
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I think Len was refering to your statement that gear switch in the up (as in the handle/toggle is moved towards the sky) is "GEAR DOWN", which is the reverse of any retract aircraft I've ever met, I suspect violates Part 23 certification (if I felt like digging through it), etc. IME, "GEAR DOW" is always switch handle/toggle moved towards the earth. If you flew an Arrow with the switch positions reversed (switch up = gear down; switch down = gear up) I suspect someone goofed.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
I think Len was refering to your statement that gear switch in the up (as in the handle/toggle is moved towards the sky) is "GEAR DOWN", which is the reverse of any retract aircraft I've ever met, I suspect violates Part 23 certification (if I felt like digging through it), etc. IME, "GEAR DOW" is always switch handle/toggle moved towards the earth. If you flew an Arrow with the switch positions reversed (switch up = gear down; switch down = gear up) I suspect someone goofed.
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Huh? This was my first post in this thread. I was saying how I would always make sure the gear were infact down before turning the master on.

I've never flown an Arrow. The complex I flew was a Sierra.
 
Joe Williams said:
.

I still intend to rent the '78 Skyhawk at Perk Valley once or twice a month. Wish they had more than one four seater with four place intercom. And that Sean was more comfy in high wings, cause $88 hr is a pretty good rate around here!
Click to expand...

Sigtronics has/had a little black box that one could plug in to the intercom to convert 2 place to 4 that might be useful to you. I've carried one & used it.
 
jangell said:
Huh? This was my first post in this thread. I was saying how I would always make sure the gear were infact down before turning the master on.

I've never flown an Arrow. The complex I flew was a Sierra.
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I "quote" captured the wrong post. Apologies. What I wrote refered back to Kent's post, not yours.

Never mind.
 
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Len Lanetti said:
Are you sure!?
Click to expand...

Ummm... Whatever are you talking about? :dunno:

That should be check gear lever DOWN... :redface: Do what I mean, not what I say!

I need to learn how to turn off the multithreading in my brain. I think when I typed that, my brain was already one step closer to lala land and thinking of Dr. B's student who put the gear lever up on the ground as part of his "short field technique." :hairraise:
 
Ken Ibold said:
I presume you know the oldest trick in the book on Piper retracts ... the instructor will distract you, then pop on the nav lights, which dims the 3 green enough that you don't see them in the daylight. So when you don't get 3 green, check the nav light switch first.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think it's the panel light switch, not the nav lights. I fly with them on all the time and the green gear down lights are fully illuminated. It's easier for the CFI to pull that trick as the switch he needs to mess with is on the right, anyway. Oh, and if you only get 2 green lights, swap one of them with the one that isn't lit. It may be burned out. They pull out easily.

10 hours minimum to get my complex, but then the club's insurance required 10 hours dual in make and model before solo (plus 100 hours TT). Joe, you've already flown an Arrow, so you know it isn't a terribly demanding aircraft as compared with a 172, just two extra controls (prop and gear) to keep track of. I've got just over 50 hours in one and like it (but not quite as much as I like the 182). Have fun.

Remember. Midfield downwind, drop the gear. Three in the green. Turn base. Three in the green. Turn final. Three in the green. I don't think any of us could stand the embarrassment of landing gear up when it wasn't necessary. ;)
 
maybe i am wrong here, but i always thought "G" was for Gas and "U" was for undercarrige.
 
Michael said:
maybe i am wrong here, but i always thought "G" was for Gas and "U" was for undercarrige.
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Me too.

G: Gas, Select the correct tank or 'Both' turn the fuel pump on
U: Undercarriage, Lower the gear check for green lights
M: Mixture, move the mixture to full rich or correct DA setting
P: Prop, Prop control to lowest pitch
S: Switches, flip the switches for landing light, fuel pump (if not done so already), strobes, etc. to on
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Depends what you're trying to achieve I guess, Len :D
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Bob,

I imagine if you want an expensive way to test a squat switch that would be the way to do it.

Len
 
Michael said:
maybe i am wrong here, but i always thought "G" was for Gas and "U" was for undercarrige.
Click to expand...

LOL it does for me too... reckon thinking about the gear so hard is leaking into everything!!
 
No no no, guys, come on. Its:

Gear
Undercarriage
Manage the gear
Put the gear down
See 3 green.
 
Uh No, it's...

Gas on fullest tank
Undercarriage
Mixture As Req'd
Prop Forward
Seat Belts.
 
Michael said:
maybe i am wrong here, but i always thought "G" was for Gas and "U" was for undercarrige.
Click to expand...

Yes, if you're talking the "real" GUMPS. There's also the "getting complex endorsement GUMPS" which goes

Gear
Undercarriage
Make the gear go down
Put the Gear Down,
Stupid! :D

I use

Gas (tank/pump)
Undercarriage (down/welded)
Mixture (rich)
Prop (full forward when appropriate)
Switches (Landing light, etc.) AND Seat belts.
 
Just a small suggestion: don't only rely on GUMPS. Do the prelanding checklist on the FAC before the FAF, or on the 45 or on downwind. THEN, supplement with two more GUMPS.

I also ask my right seat passenger to call three in the green on short final, so I have four gear call-outs.
 
Joe, weren't you considering getting checked out in a Tobago? I think you'd find it more comfortable than the Arrow. I know I do.
 
wangmyers said:
Joe, weren't you considering getting checked out in a Tobago? I think you'd find it more comfortable than the Arrow. I know I do.
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No doubt, but it's at the same airport as the Tigers I'd rather be flying, also... 3 hr driving roundtrip, very aviation supportive wife unhappy.... The Arrow 30 min away is a lot more comfortable than an unhappy wife!!! LOL
 
Joe Williams said:
No doubt, but it's at the same airport as the Tigers I'd rather be flying, also... 3 hr driving roundtrip, very aviation supportive wife unhappy.... The Arrow 30 min away is a lot more comfortable than an unhappy wife!!! LOL
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I see. That makes sense.
 
So, Joe, did you get the endorsement? What did it take?

I've thought about getting the complex endorsement too, just to have it in the old back pocket.
 
flyersfan31 said:
So, Joe, did you get the endorsement? What did it take?

I've thought about getting the complex endorsement too, just to have it in the old back pocket.
Click to expand...

I had an unexpectedly HUGE power bill this check, so I didn't get to go. Hopefully the last of the winter gas pain. Wonder how much it would cost to just have an all electric central heat & air system installed for an 1100 sq foot house, including running ductwork. Seriously, if anyone has a guess, let me know. I suspect the cost would be offset by the increase in the house's value.

Ya'll can thank me now for the wonderful weather we had this weekend, since they were forecasting rain, forecasts which changed the day after I cancelled. Just about everytime I've scheduled this spring, weather has gone to pot. Every time I can't fly, it's been wonderful. Apologies in advance for the May 20 Wings fly in!!!! It'll be raining on the 19th, also.

I was debating whether or not to get the endorsement next paycheck, but if I hit a snag I'd be minus a plane for the Wings fly in, so I'll just stick with a Tiger for that, and pick up the endorsement in June so I can have both the Tiger and the Arrow available to me for our flying vacation in July. Be darned if I'm gonna drive to another fly in LOL.
 
Ahhhh that stinks. Sorry to hear that. Here's hoping for modest bills and clear skies.....
 
flyersfan31 said:
Ahhhh that stinks. Sorry to hear that. Here's hoping for modest bills and clear skies.....
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Nothin but a thing :) But after watching my power bills go from $130-$150 a month during the summer, to to $250 month last winter, to $500 or more a month this winter, I've gotta do something or I'll be heating the house with campfires in the living room next year. Sure has heck can't handle another increase like that!!! Especially not when you consider that we got our house a lot more airtight over the summer and fall. Furnace is 16 years old, supposedly in good condition from the pre-purchase home inspection. I just don't think gas boilers/radiators are the most efficient way to go.
 
Mwu ha ha

Now you've all gone and done it!

Why on earth would you want to put the prop in during your initial gumps check? So you can treat everyone within 3 miles of the pattern to your sonic boom (so to speak)?

Fly it to the landing with your prop set at cruise. Save your governor some work and the rest of us some noise. If going around push everything forward.

Standing by...
 
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Joe Williams said:
Ya'll can thank me now for the wonderful weather we had this weekend, since they were forecasting rain, forecasts which changed the day after I cancelled. Just about everytime I've scheduled this spring, weather has gone to pot. Every time I can't fly, it's been wonderful. Apologies in advance for the May 20 Wings fly in!!!! It'll be raining on the 19th, also.
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LOL! Well thanks Joe! Had I known that you are the grand poobah of weather forecasting, I would have started making reservations in your name and cancelling them on Friday's! So if it rains on the 20th. you accept all blame?:dunno:

Gary
 
Joe Williams said:
Nothin but a thing :) But after watching my power bills go from $130-$150 a month during the summer, to to $250 month last winter, to $500 or more a month this winter, I've gotta do something or I'll be heating the house with campfires in the living room next year. Sure has heck can't handle another increase like that!!! Especially not when you consider that we got our house a lot more airtight over the summer and fall. Furnace is 16 years old, supposedly in good condition from the pre-purchase home inspection. I just don't think gas boilers/radiators are the most efficient way to go.
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Gas boilers and radiators are actually pretty efficient, but a 16-year-old boiler is probably not up to current efficiency standards.

On the house in Cincinnati, I had a forced air gas furnace w/airconditioner unit. It was about 15 years old, and there were signs of rusting on the heat exchanger. I replaced it with and ultra-efficient forced air unit (gas furnace/electric AC) together with zoning that sent different airflows to the first and second floors. The furnace was rated at about 98% efficiency, I don't recall on the AC.

My utility bills were cut in half. And the home was much more comfortable because the AC ran longer at a low setting to dehumidify the house.

The cost was on the order of $10,000 for a home that was about 2600 sq. ft. with garage and basement. They used many of the existing ducts, but added new ducting into living room, basement, and sunroom.
 
Gary said:
LOL! Well thanks Joe! Had I known that you are the grand poobah of weather forecasting, I would have started making reservations in your name and cancelling them on Friday's! So if it rains on the 20th. you accept all blame?:dunno:

Gary
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LOL Guess I've gotta!!!
 
alaskaflyer said:
Mwu ha ha

Now you've all gone and done it!

Why on earth would you want to put the prop in during your initial gumps check? So you can treat everyone within 3 miles of the pattern to your sonic boom (so to speak)?

Fly it to the landing with your prop set at cruise. Save your governor some work and the rest of us some noise. If going around push everything forward.
Click to expand...
I don't put the prop in full until the field is made on an approach, or until final after the last power reduction. MP is quite low a that point, and (for example) in the C182, RPM is at abou 1500.
 
wangmyers said:
I don't put the prop in full until the field is made on an approach, or until final after the last power reduction. MP is quite low a that point, and (for example) in the C182, RPM is at abou 1500.
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I was being evil above because I remember a thread that went on for many pages either here or on the red board discussing that very aspect. I know what I do (when I have occasion to fly a constant speed prop.) I wonder what some company SOP's might have to say about the subject.
 
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