How many dual X-Countries until "Proficient"

[Henning]

your instructor sounds like a jerk off. it is not his job to expand on the FAR's as for requirements to solo xcountry.

Some of these small penis CFI's have big egos and take it upon themselves to **** on students.

You should have a talk to the local DPEs about hims and see what they think about him.

Nah, I disagree with you on this one. I think that is a perfectly acceptable way of the CFI to cover their duty. There is no set standard way in the FARs for the CFI to determine if the student has acquired the required skill set for a solo cross country. Getting the student somewhere under the hood via a series of vectors not only incorporates som of the FAR required hood time, it also sets up a perfect 'lost, find home' scenario. If the student can find home, then they have acquired the skill set necessary to successfully complete a solo XC.

 

[warthog1984]

Please do not become a jerk off type CFI. Just follow the regs.

So to all your jerk off CFI's that love to come up with neat little tricks to inflict on your students......just follow the regs and do not get too creative. It does not make you a better CFI and it determinately does not make you a better man.

The best instructors have nothing to prove with this immature silliness.

Wrong.

The CFI signoff is not because a student met regs; it is the CFI putting his ticket on the line and saying " I, John Smith, have taught Jim Baker X, and certify that he is competent to fly XX, and he is unlikely to hurt himself or others".

"We're lost, get us home" is fair game IMO. Adding extra time requirements or performance specs beyond what the CFI genuinely needs to evaluate or teach the student to be safe and proficient isn't.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

When ever the CFI is running up the tab for no good reason, find another instructor or school.

If they are playing ego games....find another instructor.
If they are pading the bill....find another instructor.
If they are so new they are afraid to sign you off.....find another instructor.
If they are too cautious....find another instructor.

There is a happy medium at any time you feel your instructor is past that happy medium talk to him about it and then if it doesn't resolve itself to your satisfaction move on. You are the consumer have have ultimate responsibility for yourself and your training and purse strings.

The bad CFI's will have difficulty keeping students and starve and go work for wal-mart and probably get a better salary to boot.

Not really

It's your CFIs job to make sure you're safe. Some of that is making sure if things go sideways you won't kill yourself, others, a regulation, or bend the plane.

Until you prove to ME that you are safe I won't sign your logbook, don't like it go else where, I ain't going to have your dead azz on my concensious and sure as he11 ain't going to get 709ed just because some student wants to rush through things.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Funny that is the exactly same line that the mechanic refused to sign off a perfectly good working engine that was in great condition all the way around except it had 2880 hrs. They inspected it and found all parts met new limits except 3 which met serviceable limits. Now they have $11k more in that airplane and it is still a basic VFR Cherokee and the resell value did not increase by the cost of the inspection.

Engine could likely flown another 800 hrs without failing with proper monitoring procedures.

So just like I do with Mechanics, If I get a guy who is using that sorry ass excuse to be unprofessional I hire another guy to finish the job.

Wrong.

The CFI signoff is not because a student met regs; it is the CFI putting his ticket on the line and saying " I, John Smith, have taught Jim Baker X, and certify that he is competent to fly XX, and he is unlikely to hurt himself or others".

"We're lost, get us home" is fair game IMO. Adding extra time requirements or performance specs beyond what the CFI genuinely needs to evaluate or teach the student to be safe and proficient isn't.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I get your point but where do you draw the line from training and hazing?
You no doubt heard many more stories than I about how the low level cfi's haze students.

Nah, I disagree with you on this one. I think that is a perfectly acceptable way of the CFI to cover their duty. There is no set standard way in the FARs for the CFI to determine if the student has acquired the required skill set for a solo cross country. Getting the student somewhere under the hood via a series of vectors not only incorporates som of the FAR required hood time, it also sets up a perfect 'lost, find home' scenario. If the student can find home, then they have acquired the skill set necessary to successfully complete a solo XC.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

if you are a jerk your students will find someone else, new students will hear about you and you can go collect empty aluminum cans for a living or go work at walmart.

if you are reasonable your students will love you. It is that simple.

Not really

It's your CFIs job to make sure you're safe. Some of that is making sure if things go sideways you won't kill yourself, others, a regulation, or bend the plane.

Until you prove to ME that you are safe I won't sign your logbook, don't like it go else where, I ain't going to have your dead azz on my concensious and sure as he11 ain't going to get 709ed just because some student wants to rush through things.

 

[Henning]

I get your point but where do you draw the line from training and hazing?
You no doubt heard many more stories than I about how the low level cfi's haze students.

Sure, but this doesn't qualify in and of itself. Orientating from an unknown position is required for safe operation. If he had made the same requirement while still under the hood, that would have been over the line for a PP (but fair game for an IR), or made the requirement, "get us STRAIGHT home without using any electronic Nav" that would have been hazing. Taking the student from an unknown position and asking him to "get home" IMO is a fair test of an essential skill. That the student succeeded and the CFI signed them off for solo XC directly thereafter indicates to me that the CFI used a realistic test of ability fairly to evaluate the student for required abilities and then progressed the training to the next step. No indication of hazing to be seen IMO.

 

[EdFred]

I looked in my logbook. My CFI and I did one day XC, my night XC then I did my first solo XC. 7.6 of my 10.1 solo time was XC.

Looking for my students I only did a day and night with each of them.

But they weren't the typical lets go 51nm XC either. They were hundreds of miles, and I threw everything at them.

 

[warthog1984]

So, a licensed mechanic used his mechanical judgement to require more inspection of a flight-critical item that looked to be in good shape, but had passed normal time limits and whose innards were not available for inspection. Upon opening it up, they found exactly what they expected to find, and then signed off on it.

But this safety inspection didn't "increase" the resale of the plane, so therefore the mechanic was unprofessional.

Funny that is the exactly same line that the mechanic refused to sign off a perfectly good working engine that was in great condition all the way around except it had 2880 hrs. They inspected it and found all parts met new limits except 3 which met serviceable limits. Now they have $11k more in that airplane and it is still a basic VFR Cherokee and the resell value did not increase by the cost of the inspection.

Engine could likely flown another 800 hrs without failing with proper monitoring procedures.

So just like I do with Mechanics, If I get a guy who is using that sorry ass excuse to be unprofessional I hire another guy to finish the job.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I looked in my logbook. My CFI and I did one day XC, my night XC then I did my first solo XC. 7.6 of my 10.1 solo time was XC.

Looking for my students I only did a day and night with each of them.

But they weren't the typical lets go 51nm XC either. They were hundreds of miles, and I threw everything at them.

I had 4 dual XC before my first solo XC, but each one trained something new and the hours applied to other requirements:

2.7 hours: XC using pilotage/dead reckoning. 77S KUAO 7S5 77S
3.4 hours: XC using VORs. 77S 17S S48 77S
2.8 hours: XC at night. 77S KLSE KEUG 77S
2.9 hours: XC using VOR under the hood. 77S KOTH KRBG 77S

My two solo XCs added up to 6.3 hours. In my opinion it is more than OK for solo XC flights to exceed the FAA requirements.

 

[EdFred]

I had 4 dual XC before my first solo XC, but each one trained something new and the hours applied to other requirements:

2.7 hours: XC using pilotage/dead reckoning. 77S KUAO 7S5 77S
3.4 hours: XC using VORs. 77S 17S S48 77S
2.8 hours: XC at night. 77S KLSE KEUG 77S
2.9 hours: XC using VOR under the hood. 77S KOTH KRBG 77S

My two solo XCs added up to 6.3 hours. In my opinion it is more than OK for solo XC flights to exceed the FAA requirements.

What I have done with my students is we do a long XC around 300-400 miles. On the way out we will do VOR navigation, and on the way back we will do pilotage/ded reckoning using a different route than on the way there. On one of the legs we will have a diversion thrown in as well. So far all have been able to handle it.

My first student did a 300nm XC for his first one. Of course in Michigan it's hard to get lost. Climb, and find one of the big lakes.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Are you new to aviation or just being purposely ignorant for a purpose? You do not really seem to understand the job of a CFI which you probably are not anyway so I guess I am not surprised that you cannot understand a mechanics' or airplane owners. Get some more experience and then we will talk.

So, a licensed mechanic used his mechanical judgement to require more inspection of a flight-critical item that looked to be in good shape, but had passed normal time limits and whose innards were not available for inspection. Upon opening it up, they found exactly what they expected to find, and then signed off on it.

But this safety inspection didn't "increase" the resale of the plane, so therefore the mechanic was unprofessional.

 

[marcoseddi]

with iphones and ipads n foreflight no reason u shouldnt be allowed to go after 1 lol i mean seriously ur not getting lost anymore especially if you havea nav log as well.

 

[MAKG1]

with iphones and ipads n foreflight no reason u shouldnt be allowed to go after 1 lol i mean seriously ur not getting lost anymore especially if you havea nav log as well.

You haven't done this yet, have you?

I really doubt your iphone can spot incoming airliners for you or figure out whether that obscuration ahead is a haze layer or an overcast or make decisions about fuel load snd engine readings. There is much more to a solo cross country than navigation.

Leaving aside that your iphone can fail or give wrong answers. Or get used wrong.

 

[GCA319]

with iphones and ipads n foreflight no reason u shouldnt be allowed to go after 1 lol i mean seriously ur not getting lost anymore especially if you havea nav log as well.

before I sign someone off for a solo XC, they have to show me that they can navigate without any of that stuff.

 

[Henning]

with iphones and ipads n foreflight no reason u shouldnt be allowed to go after 1 lol i mean seriously ur not getting lost anymore especially if you havea nav log as well.

If you need that to get home, you failed.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

if you are a jerk your students will find someone else, new students will hear about you and you can go collect empty aluminum cans for a living or go work at walmart.

if you are reasonable your students will love you. It is that simple.

Well between flying turbines at job 1 and my current students at job 2, I have more students then I know what to do with, so my problem is not of retention but of lack of my availability.

Needless to say I'm far for collecting cans or cleaning dirty computers for 30 bucks, so I cant complain.


AND lastly, there are quite a few people on this site with a considerable amount of knowledge and experience, ATPs, CFIs, guys with thousands of hours and the like....

You, as a VFR only Private Pilot, might do well to remove head from azz and listen to some folks who probably know FAR more then you.




We go through some exercises with our students which may seem excessive to someone with only a VFR PPL and no CFIing experience.

We do not practice these lost procedures and simulated engine failures to scam our students out of their money, sure as he11 not to burn up more time (something I have precious little to spare), but for their good, to make them better/safer pilots, because as high time CFIs we not only know it's our duty to our students, but what the FAA expects and our customers deserve.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

your instructor sounds like a jerk off. it is not his job to expand on the FAR's as for requirements to solo xcountry.

Some of these small penis CFI's have big egos and take it upon themselves to **** on students.

You should have a talk to the local DPEs about hims and see what they think about him.

Well, that's a bit harsh.
He was testing my ability to read the charts, using nothing but a compass to navigate, and still fly the plane. I'm not sure how you test this otherwise other than getting me lost?

 

[warthog1984]

AND lastly, there are quite a few people on this site with a considerable amount of knowledge and experience, ATPs, CFIs, guys with thousands of hours and the like....

You, as a VFR only Private Pilot, might do well to remove head from azz and listen to some folks who probably know FAR more then you.

Please don't call him out because he's a VFR PPL, it's an insult to VFR PPL everywhere.

If you have to call him out, call him out because he's a mechanic-shopping azz who thinks a CFI must give an endorsement as soon as the bare minimum maneuvers are shown.

 

[denverpilot]

Thought about the thread a bunch this week and my answer just came to me. You're never 100% proficient at cross countries. Every flight you can evaluate and think of things you might have done better.

The one that taught me the most early on was the one with unexpected unforecast weather where I had to divert and land and spend the night on someone's couch instead of pressing on toward a thunderstorm as it got dark out.

Additionally a typical 300-400 mile student cross country is a completely different beast than a multil leg cross the COUNTRY cross country.

 

[wabower]

I don't think perfection is the target. I want the student to be able to look at the map and show me where we are on the ground or look at the ground and show me where we are on the map, and focus on time rather than distance. I'd also like to see smooth (well, smooth enough) proficient, outcome never in doubt, able to evaluate, adapt when necessary, execute plan B, stay ahead of the airplane.

If all the interior lights unexpectedly "fail" during a night X/C, what does the student quickly learn about cockpit organization, flashlights, priorities and procedures? What does the CFI learn about the student's current abilities to handle such a situation? Is it in the book to simulate such a situation? Will I ever stop doing it? Has it happened to me? What happens when the big pot behind the little knob stops working? Is it an emergency? If so, what level of urgency? Land now? Land later? Where?

Thought about the thread a bunch this week and my answer just came to me. You're never 100% proficient at cross countries. Every flight you can evaluate and think of things you might have done better.

The one that taught me the most early on was the one with unexpected unforecast weather where I had to divert and land and spend the night on someone's couch instead of pressing on toward a thunderstorm as it got dark out.

Additionally a typical 300-400 mile student cross country is a completely different beast than a multil leg cross the COUNTRY cross country.

 

[gismo]

When you can get from here to there and back without your instructor telling you what you need to do, just commenting on technique, you're ready. What tells you that you are not ready is that your instructor still has to intervene to keep you from getting lost or into trouble.

While your first sentence makes sense, I can't see what in the OP led to your second sentence. Some behind the scenes info perhaps?

Good afternoon All- I am currently in the x-country phase of training and was curious to know how many trips did it take until your instructor felt you were proficient enough to get a solo x-country sign-off. I am curious and wanted to get a handle on budgeting for what appears to be an expensive portion of training. What should I look for in my own development?

Are there any obvious signs that will tell ME (and not my instructor) that I am definitely not ready? I fly once per week and when I am not eating, sleeping, or toileting I am doing something aviation retated- Ok that is a stretch, but I do spend at least 2-3 hrs each day during the week planing, studying, reading articles, watching training videos....etc. I am doing my best to manage the "get there-itis" but can't help feeling I am not doing enough

Thoughts Gang?

 

[mtuomi]

If they are playing ego games....find another instructor.
If they are pading the bill....find another instructor.
If they are so new they are afraid to sign you off.....find another instructor.
If they are too cautious....find another instructor.

If they just require and teach you to bare minimums....find another instructor.

 

[GCA319]

Please do not become a jerk off type CFI. Just follow the regs.

It was local ehtos around here, after a long time CFI got the great idea of simulating an emergency power off landing near 81 Speedway-a race track. The student would automatically head for that race track as it looked like a good spot but the track had a hard to see cable holding the bleachers and phone poles straight and the CFI's around here would get their jollies off by having students aim right for that and then at the last moment the CFI would point out that hazard. And all these jerks woudl pat themselves on the back and tell the great war stories of how the made the students white knucked, white faced or crap their pants. Very mature attitude that I find about half the CFI's seem to have.

Then one day a cfi either waited too long or was distracted but the student flew through the cable cutting the airplane wings in half killing all on board.

So to all your jerk off CFI's that love to come up with neat little tricks to inflict on your students......just follow the regs and do not get too creative. It does not make you a better CFI and it determinately does not make you a better man.

The best instructors have nothing to prove with this immature silliness.

Go get your CFI, take on the responsibility/liability involved in the trade, then get back to us. We do this kind of stuff to create safe pilots, not because we have ego problems. IMO, the instructors who teach nothing more than the test are the jerks. Aviation is serious business that can get you killed and sometimes some tough lessons are needed.

 

[mtuomi]

I rather have a CFI show me those neat tricks while in training rather than learn them by myself when its too late.

 

[signu127]

I've done two...and I am patiently waiting for the weather to allow me to do my solo xc. I have scheduled about 9 trips over the last 5 weeks and all have been canceled due to weather. This morning we had great weather so I was taking a vacation day to fly but my instructor had to go out of town this morning.

 

[Owad1971]

Ok.. Here's an update and a follow on question:

Last night went on Dual XC from FRG to SWF via Carmel & Kingston VORs (chosen so I could overfly POU class D to get final waypoint to SWF which had the beacon light out of service)..It was a Niceeeee night to fly. Worled closely with NY approach (had to be like 10 handoffs and freq changes) and I did not misss a call! Even entered the pattern behind a C-17 which ATC advised was off my 3 o'clock position. I politely asked if the faster moving contact 1.5 miles off my 8:30 was my traffic B/C there was no one else around me at all. Hey what do you know..ATC is human after all. It was a great experience! My CFI told me I was too chatty on comms...lol!

Anyhow- The question: Do Touch & Go's count when doing cross countries? I know the do not qualify for night currency requirements, but part 61 is a quiet on the actual details of "landings" at an airport 50mi from the point of origin....

Takaway from last nights flight-
1:More night practice will be needed as my flying career progresses.
2:I LOVE FLYING AT NIGHT!!!!
3:Need to practice T&G at home airport once I get my ticket!
4: In my opinion VOR's should be lit up for easy night recognition...LOL!
5: Night XC makes you appreciate daytime dead reconing and pilotage!!!
6: Although it looks tempting....The runway is NOT the one with the pretty blue lights!!!

 

[MAKG1]

Yes, T&G's count for cross-countries, but I suggest you get out and stretch/fuel/pee/whatever, and get an abbreviated weather briefing for any changes. That last part can be done with Flight Watch, but it's important to give yourself a break.

There is never a situation in which you must do a T&G, so you don't really need to be proficient in them. Practice go-arounds if that's an issue, including with full flaps right up to the flare, because that really can be an emergency maneuver. It's not the same, even if you do touch down during the go-around -- your handling of flaps, for instance, is completely different. Note that some FBOs prohibit T&Gs in complex aircraft, and there are A LOT of accidents in the database related to loss of control during the roll-out.

Stop'n'goes are a whole lot better. On short runways, full-stop and taxi-back only.

 

[noobJohn]

Ok... I don't have the answer but I'll throw out my opinion.

I did full stop landings on all my student cross country flights. I liked the taxi time to relax, do a self-debrief on the landing, eyeball the next leg on the flight plan, etc... I'm farily relaxed when flying but the landing part gets the blood pumping. I don't mind a couple of minutes on the ground to get back to an even keel.

A discussion of touch and goes during training, in general, often sets of a holy war.

I do seem to recall my instructor saying that it was ok to do touch and goes on my solos but he was a much bigger fan of touch and goes than I am.

Ok.. Here's an update and a follow on question:

Anyhow- The question: Do Touch & Go's count when doing cross countries? I know the do not qualify for night currency requirements, but part 61 is a quiet on the actual details of "landings" at an airport 50mi from the point of origin....

 

[Owad1971]

Yes, T&G's count for cross-countries, but I suggest you get out and stretch/fuel/pee/whatever, and get an abbreviated weather briefing for any changes. That last part can be done with Flight Watch, but it's important to give yourself a break.

There is never a situation in which you must do a T&G, so you don't really need to be proficient in them. Practice go-arounds if that's an issue, including with full flaps right up to the flare, because that really can be an emergency maneuver. It's not the same, even if you do touch down during the go-around -- your handling of flaps, for instance, is completely different. Note that some FBOs prohibit T&Gs in complex aircraft, and there are A LOT of accidents in the database related to loss of control during the roll-out.

Stop'n'goes are a whole lot better. On short runways, full-stop and taxi-back only.

Thanks...Good to know. I insisted on a stop & go on that LOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGG 11,000ft runway...that was luxurious!!

 

[eman1200]

....I don't mind a couple of minutes on the ground to get back to an even keel......

sounds like a good decision, if that's what you need.

 

[Henning]

An instructor with over 30,000hrs once said to me, "A touch and go places the most hazardous 2 phases of flight back to back with no time to think in between all to save 50¢, does that sound smart?"

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks...Good to know. I insisted on a stop & go on that LOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGG 11,000ft runway...that was luxurious!!

That 11000 feet can come in really handy when you land behind a jet. Wanna land 2000 feet past the threshold? No problem.

There is a GA-only airport in northern CA with a 12000x150 runway -- KMER. Kinda fun to try out; some flight training, but not a whole lot of traffic. Not fun in the pattern unless you do early crosswinds. It's a former SAC base, and the runway has been narrowed! It used to handle B-52s with thermonukes.

 

[Henning]

That 11000 feet can come in really handy when you land behind a jet. Wanna land 2000 feet past the threshold? No problem.

There is a GA-only airport in northern CA with a 12000x150 runway -- KMER. Kinda fun to try out; some flight training, but not a whole lot of traffic. Not fun in the pattern unless you do early crosswinds. It's a former SAC base, and the runway has been narrowed! It used to handle B-52s with thermonukes.

Long Beach used to be a lot of fun with the tick tack toe runways, 10 in all if you count both directions. On a slow night tower would approve you to use them all in the "turn back round about" which would give you every possible cross and tail wind to practice on. You could also get night current on 31 without going around the pattern.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Good afternoon All- I am currently in the x-country phase of training and was curious to know how many trips did it take until your instructor felt you were proficient enough to get a solo x-country sign-off. I am curious and wanted to get a handle on budgeting for what appears to be an expensive portion of training. What should I look for in my own development?

Are there any obvious signs that will tell ME (and not my instructor) that I am definitely not ready? I fly once per week and when I am not eating, sleeping, or toileting I am doing something aviation retated- Ok that is a stretch, but I do spend at least 2-3 hrs each day during the week planing, studying, reading articles, watching training videos....etc. I am doing my best to manage the "get there-itis" but can't help feeling I am not doing enough

Thoughts Gang?

Only one, but my CFI was aware that I had already flown my share of a couple of round-trips NY to CA and another couple of NY to OK with hubby.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I'm curious, does anybody do touch&gos with complex aircraft??....seems to me it's one thing to do it with a fix gear 172, and another with say an Arrow where the landing gear lever seems uncomfortably close to the throttle. I agree with Ihennings CFI.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I'm curious, does anybody do touch&gos with complex aircraft??....seems to me it's one thing to do it with a fix gear 172, and another with say an Arrow where the landing gear lever seems uncomfortably close to the throttle. I agree with Ihennings CFI.

Yep, do them with CPL students all the time.

As for the gear knob being close to the throttle... So is the mixture, you ever kill the engine by accident??

 

[jordane93]

i did 2 as well. one short one and one long one. right after the long dual x countrymy instructor asked me if i wanted to do my solo x country and i ended up doing the same long x country 2 times that day

 

[EdFred]

I'm curious, does anybody do touch&gos with complex aircraft??....seems to me it's one thing to do it with a fix gear 172, and another with say an Arrow where the landing gear lever seems uncomfortably close to the throttle. I agree with Ihennings CFI.

I do, but I have a big ole Johnson bar for the flaps, and I have to reach around the wheel/yoke to get at the gear switch. The biggest thing on T & G's in my plane is going up to get the overhead trim set before the G part happens.

 

[MAKG1]

I'm curious, does anybody do touch&gos with complex aircraft??....seems to me it's one thing to do it with a fix gear 172, and another with say an Arrow where the landing gear lever seems uncomfortably close to the throttle. I agree with Ihennings CFI.

Well, let's put it this way.

The 177RG is very definitely a fly-until-the-wheels-are stopped aircraft in anything but dead calm winds. It touches down very softly and stays soft for quite a while down the runway.

NO WAY I want my eyes inside the aircraft during that roll to find, confirm, and pull the flaps. No way, no how. Not to mention that the flaps need to go to 10 deg or it's going to take a lot of runway to lift off again. I really hate no flap takeoffs in that aircraft.

Sure, people do it. It's not illegal and isn't always prohibited by other rules. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. At least not for all aircraft. A 172RG will be a bit easier to handle.

Note that this is separate from the gear lever. There are just too many things that can go wrong.