How is the twins market ?

[flyingcheesehead]

Yeah, I know that fixed gear makes sense for Cape Air. And the P2012 isn't really slow, Wikipedia says it still cruises at 185.

I'm just confused how it makes more sense to certify a new airplane that's almost identical to an existing one.

And I hate not being excited about new airplanes. Since I would never want this one (nor would I want a 402), well, not too excited.

I saw, and want, a Diamond DA62. Fast, good load, inexpensive fuel-wise. They just need to move that decimal point one place to the left.

DA6.2?

I just wish the DA62 were pressurized. Then I'd have something to lust after for when I'm old and rich.

I've always liked the DA42, but even if I had the money, I'm not sure I'd buy one. Diamonds don't seem to be that prevalent in the states, and that would make me concerned about parts availability, service, and support.

Diamonds overall are far from rare. The DA40 even edged out the SR22 one quarter as the top-selling airplane. And, note that the DA42 is different from the DA62 that Kenny was posting about.

The DA42 may seem rare, but it will seem that way for a long time when you compare it to Senecas, 310s, and the like that were being churned out of the factory at impressive rates in the 1970s GA heyday. The DA42 wasn't certified until 2004, and it wasn't too long after that before their engine manufacturer went out of business, stopping production for a while. They came up with a Lyc-powered version that removed one of its primary advantages (low fuel burn) and was ugly as sin, and by the time they got their own Austro diesels certified the economy had tanked. IMO, the design matured with the DA42-VI which came out in 2012 and is a very attractive airplane. They have something like 80% of the twin market with it now. But, that has only been out now for a few years. It will become less rare as time goes on.

As far as parts availability, service, and support, Diamond has a network of service centers that's pretty widespread, I think there's more Diamond service centers than Mooney service centers. It's not like it's a Cessna and every A&P ever has worked on one, but... It's not a Cessna!

We get the club's DA40 serviced at the service center at OSH. Maintenance costs have been very reasonable, in the neighborhood of $35/hr over time including annuals, oil changes, etc.

Also, remember that not all the parts on your plane are from the manufacturer of your plane. I've bought parts from my Mooney from Whelen, Bendix/King, Continental, Lord, Desser, etc but I think I have yet to buy a Mooney part. Same thing applies on Diamonds.

Finally, in the event that you do need a Diamond-specific part, the main delay is US Customs when shipping parts from the factory in London, Ontario. It might take an extra day to get there, but it's a once-every-5-years kind of event.

In any case, I wouldn't not buy a Diamond because of support worries, now that I know what it's like to own one - While I didn't own it myself, as the former President, Maintenance Officer, and Treasurer of the club I have a very good idea of what it's like.

 

[gsengle]

Private flyers of course aren’t excited by the Tecnam. And a 402 is fun to fly, but it was not designed to be an airliner. Look on Tecnams website for cabin comparison. It’s dramatically better space with a full 9 passenger seats, no more need to put a passenger in a co pilot seat...


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[Todd82]

Tecnam P2012 (I think) New Cabin class twins for commuter and air taxi routes

Fixed gear and not nearly enough endurance for a mapper, but yes that's the only thing even close to our 404's now. That said, the mapping industry doesn't buy factory new, we'll see how the Tecnams are around 2030 lol

The TEO-540-C1A is direct drive, not geared. Really wouldn't want geared for that market if you could avoid it for several reasons.

I've seen some ham fisted pilots on the 404's with those GTSIO's. And we are doing much longer runs than anything Cape Air imagined. The thought of a Cape Air type operation on something geared is frightening.

 

[gsengle]

Fixed gear and not nearly enough endurance for a mapper, but yes that's the only thing even close to our 404's now. That said, the mapping industry doesn't buy factory new, we'll see how the Tecnams are around 2030 lol



I've seen some ham fisted pilots on the 404's with those GTSIO's. And we are doing much longer runs than anything Cape Air imagined. The thought of a Cape Air type operation on something geared is frightening.

It’s not a geared engine.


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[Todd82]

It’s not a geared engine.


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I know I was quoting/replying to Ted

 

[gsengle]

I know I was quoting/replying to Ted

Was corrected in a subsequent post and they aren’t geared... I’ll try to remember to find and post the specs


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[FormerHangie]

Yeah, I know that fixed gear makes sense for Cape Air. And the P2012 isn't really slow, Wikipedia says it still cruises at 185.

I'm just confused how it makes more sense to certify a new airplane that's almost identical to an existing one.

And I hate not being excited about new airplanes. Since I would never want this one (nor would I want a 402), well, not too excited.



DA6.2?

I just wish the DA62 were pressurized. Then I'd have something to lust after for when I'm old and rich.



Diamonds overall are far from rare. The DA40 even edged out the SR22 one quarter as the top-selling airplane. And, note that the DA42 is different from the DA62 that Kenny was posting about.

The DA42 may seem rare, but it will seem that way for a long time when you compare it to Senecas, 310s, and the like that were being churned out of the factory at impressive rates in the 1970s GA heyday. The DA42 wasn't certified until 2004, and it wasn't too long after that before their engine manufacturer went out of business, stopping production for a while. They came up with a Lyc-powered version that removed one of its primary advantages (low fuel burn) and was ugly as sin, and by the time they got their own Austro diesels certified the economy had tanked. IMO, the design matured with the DA42-VI which came out in 2012 and is a very attractive airplane. They have something like 80% of the twin market with it now. But, that has only been out now for a few years. It will become less rare as time goes on.

As far as parts availability, service, and support, Diamond has a network of service centers that's pretty widespread, I think there's more Diamond service centers than Mooney service centers. It's not like it's a Cessna and every A&P ever has worked on one, but... It's not a Cessna!

We get the club's DA40 serviced at the service center at OSH. Maintenance costs have been very reasonable, in the neighborhood of $35/hr over time including annuals, oil changes, etc.

Also, remember that not all the parts on your plane are from the manufacturer of your plane. I've bought parts from my Mooney from Whelen, Bendix/King, Continental, Lord, Desser, etc but I think I have yet to buy a Mooney part. Same thing applies on Diamonds.

Finally, in the event that you do need a Diamond-specific part, the main delay is US Customs when shipping parts from the factory in London, Ontario. It might take an extra day to get there, but it's a once-every-5-years kind of event.

In any case, I wouldn't not buy a Diamond because of support worries, now that I know what it's like to own one - While I didn't own it myself, as the former President, Maintenance Officer, and Treasurer of the club I have a very good idea of what it's like.

DA42s are kind of rare, the production numbers have been in two digits for the last 10 years, and aren't trending upward. In 2017 it was 36 airframes, and that's for the whole globe.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

DA42s are kind of rare, the production numbers have been in two digits for the last 10 years, and aren't trending upward. In 2017 it was 36 airframes, and that's for the whole globe.

I would imagine that only the training market has really been buying the 42s since the 62s came out. It's unfortunate that the piston twin market is such a tough one - For the price of a new DA42, you could get a nice Conquest. The operating economics are obviously very different, but if one has $850K to blow on buying an airplane, they probably don't need piston single operating costs.

 

[FormerHangie]

I would imagine that only the training market has really been buying the 42s since the 62s came out. It's unfortunate that the piston twin market is such a tough one - For the price of a new DA42, you could get a nice Conquest. The operating economics are obviously very different, but if one has $850K to blow on buying an airplane, they probably don't need piston single operating costs.

In the first three years of production, Diamond built 65 DA-62s, and in the first nine months of 2018 built 26 more, and 36 DA-42s. At that rate they'll never be plentiful.

Looking at the DA-62 registrations, looks like about half the DA-62s have found their way to the U. S.

 

[stratobee]

Is the Aerostar something that can be maintained and serviced by most (knowledgeable) shops out there? Or is it such a rare bird that you'd have a hard time finding someone good to perform maintenance on it?

I remember when I first started researching my flight training, running across Aerostars and thinking what a cool plane they were, and if I were ever lucky enough to own a plane, to maybe look at one. But I've always been wary of buying anything (especially a plane!) that could be hard to service.

They do need to be serviced by people that have done it before. They're complex twins and very tightly cowled. You don't want someone to learn on the job on your dime with these. That said, there are good shops with Aerostar experience in all states. If you buy one, I would recommend joining Aerostar Owners Association. It's a great club and they keep an active list of shops and mechanics that know the aircraft well for each state.