How does the FAA find out about controlled prescriptions?

This thread is so full of fail, I don't even know where to begin.
 
scooby.doo2016@yahoo.com said:
Hello everyone,
My question is, if someone who's never been diagnosed with ADHD but knows someone who can prescribe the medications for him/her, how is FAA going to find out about the medication?

If the doctor is paid in cash and he hands in a paper note for prescriptions and then the note is taken to the pharmacy and also paid in cash, how is this going to be tracked?

How would you go about in the case of FAA medical exam form 8500-8?
I only take them when I have a heavy load just so I could finish my hw on time. I don't take them during breaks, or school days just on the days where I need to get work done. I need to mention this again, I was never diagnosed and will probably never be diagnosed of having ADHD.

This is my second time getting them in my whole life. The 2nd time I got the prescription was about a month ago.
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I believe that most (if not all) ADHD meds are narcotics/controlled substances, so even if you find a doc who writes a paper script and you pay cash, the pharmacy will make a record of it....in other words, you are probably in a computer database.

I also believe that they can't prescribe the meds without an ADHD diagnosis, although I have personally known of docs in the Navy prescribing ADHD meds to people for the purpose of weight loss, so I am not sure how it works.

But, regardless of whether I am right or wrong on the above, don't expect much help on this. Like Unit74 said, this has fail written all over it. You've admitted to using a med that is forbidden by the FAA and seem to be looking for a way to hide it. I don't think you are going to get much help there.

If you don't have ADHD, then you don't need the meds. But if you have already taken the medication, you really need to get with an AME like Bruce Chien who can at least properly advise you on what you would need to do to make it right.....but you will find that it is going to be a very expensive process.
 
I smell a troll.

But if not, you're headed for a lie to the FAA, and that right there is quite enough for them to pull your medical when they find out. And they'll usually find out.
 
Unbelievable premise with already good answers.

You Lose your pilot certificate too, for lying.

Don't be doing this. They are Schedule 2 and the record will be everyplace. It'll already exist in Washington when the "bent metal" investigation (or the call into the FAA Hotline) begins.

You should see the faces of the aspiring attorney pilots, who got scripts in the middle of January exams (Torts, Contracts) in an attempt to get a competitive "law review" advantage, when I point this out.

They realize that they will be before the bar committee for consideration of discipline, when they investigate the possibility of "omitting" (actually, LYING) to the FAA. I always say, "remember Martha Stewart" who (we are told) misled the FBI. No conviction for insider trading. Jus 18 months in Club Fed.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I believe that most (if not all) ADHD meds are narcotics/controlled substances, so even if you find a doc who writes a paper script and you pay cash, the pharmacy will make a record of it....in other words, you are probably in a computer database.

I also believe that they can't prescribe the meds without an ADHD diagnosis, although I have personally known of docs in the Navy prescribing ADHD meds to people for the purpose of weight loss, so I am not sure how it works.

But, regardless of whether I am right or wrong on the above, don't expect much help on this. Like Unit74 said, this has fail written all over it. You've admitted to using a med that is forbidden by the FAA and seem to be looking for a way to hide it. I don't think you are going to get much help there.

If you don't have ADHD, then you don't need the meds. But if you have already taken the medication, you really need to get with an AME like Bruce Chien who can at least properly advise you on what you would need to do to make it right.....but you will find that it is going to be a very expensive process.
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I will try going back to pharmacy and see what they will say. If I have a chance of handing them back to them then I will be fine because on the FAA Medical form says "substance use in the past 2 years" I haven't used them in the past 2 years which is true. I've only used them about 3 years ago. Do you think it's going to change the matter?
 
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Fearless Tower said:
I believe that most (if not all) ADHD meds are narcotics/controlled substances, so even if you find a doc who writes a paper script and you pay cash, the pharmacy will make a record of it....in other words, you are probably in a computer database.

I also believe that they can't prescribe the meds without an ADHD diagnosis, although I have personally known of docs in the Navy prescribing ADHD meds to people for the purpose of weight loss, so I am not sure how it works.

But, regardless of whether I am right or wrong on the above, don't expect much help on this. Like Unit74 said, this has fail written all over it. You've admitted to using a med that is forbidden by the FAA and seem to be looking for a way to hide it. I don't think you are going to get much help there.

If you don't have ADHD, then you don't need the meds. But if you have already taken the medication, you really need to get with an AME like Bruce Chien who can at least properly advise you on what you would need to do to make it right.....but you will find that it is going to be a very expensive process.
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FAA Medical Form say "Substance use in past 2 years", so based on that I have not used any substance nor have I been diagnosed with ADHD. I may be able to talk to the pharmacy and get to the bottom of this. Maybe if I return them I will get removed from the data base. What are your thoughts. I in no shape or form want to ruin my future.
 
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Palmpilot said:
Oh come on, Nate, do you really think it's impossible for young people who don't know any better to get themselves into situations like that?
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I do, but we have a history of the other here also. So it's a toss up. I didn't really state it was one or the other.

Dunno. Whatever it is, it isn't good.

Trying to hide psych drugs from FAA is a losing game and even coming clean is going to only be one notch above "we caught you lying to us".

It becomes "you were lying to us and admitted it" which still isn't a good place to be.
 
Hate to break it to you op, the FAA only looks at ADD one dimensionally and you don't want to lie to the FEDS.

So, contact Dr Bruce, pay the man, and let him give you your options.
 
bbchien said:
Don't be doing this. They are Schedule 2 and the record will be everyplace. It'll already exist in Washington when the "bent metal" investigation (or the call into the FAA Hotline) begins.
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Bruce, is it possible to prescribe the drugs without the ADHD diagnosis (such as the example I gave)?

I had the doc on my last ship offer to prescribe it (Ritalin or Aderall, I don't remember which) for weight loss (apparently he had already done it for two other guys in the wardroom). I told him, in no uncertain terms, "hell no!"
 
Fearless Tower said:
Bruce, is it possible to prescribe the drugs without the ADHD diagnosis (such as the example I gave)?

I had the doc on my last ship offer to prescribe it (Ritalin or Aderall, I don't remember which) for weight loss (apparently he had already done it for two other guys in the wardroom). I told him, in no uncertain terms, "hell no!"
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I wish that were possible.
 
denverpilot said:
I do, but we have a history of the other here also. So it's a toss up. I didn't really state it was one or the other.

Dunno. Whatever it is, it isn't good...
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I just feel that newcomers get accused of trolling FAR too often around here. It's a lousy way to welcome new people.

And even if an occasional troll didn't get identified, so what? It's not as if anyone is out any money. If you can't stand even the possibility of being put on, just don't reply, or put the thread on ignore.
 
Many states these days have a prescription drug monitoring program. A name, a date of birth, and you can look up what controlled substances have been dispensed to that person (and who prescribed them). For PDM, it does not matter whether the prescriber was paid in cash, it matters that the patient receives the drug from a state and fed registered pharmacy. I don't know whether the FAA has access to the state PDM programs, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't.

There are a couple ways around having your scripts show up in the state database, all of them require the commission of felonies :wink2: .


How about you just sit down, do your homework like god intended, after you down about 1/2 a pot of coffee :D .
 
Palmpilot said:
I just feel that newcomers get accused of trolling FAR too often around here. It's a lousy way to welcome new people.



And even if an occasional troll didn't get identified, so what? It's not as if anyone is out any money. If you can't stand even the possibility of being put on, just don't reply, or put the thread on ignore.
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Even more often they have to listen to the huge number of whiners who didn't answer their question (I did) who feel some strange compulsion to whine about other's answers, in their thread. Don't like my answer? Post a better one.

Feel free to add value. I didn't just say "troll" and stop. I answered the question. My tiny sentence asking if the post was a troll isn't really going to scare off anyone with a serious question, and only added to the concern that what they'd just recommended doing, was so "out there" per the FAA and their methodology of judgement of someone's character (they really hate it when you lie to them, and even more so about physics drugs and conditions) that the question comes across as -- no surprise --almost unbelievable.

I don't have any problem welcoming new people at all. I don't particularly get enthused about welcoming someone who's lying to themselves about use of psych drugs without reporting.

In other words: They really need to get their crap together, and quick.

Taking psych drugs without reporting is a great way to find oneself staring down the gun of $10,000 worth of psyche tests to prove to FAA that there's no "compulsive" or "addictive" behavior involved. Maybe I should have just started there.

If you think you need to pop a pill to get through stressful times in life, that's not a good trait for someone that has to be PIC either. They don't like that. What are you going to do when the flying job gets stressful and hectic and the wife is calling that the car, the dishwasher, and the kids all need something done at home during your 12 hours between legs. If you can even make it home. Etc.

So is that a better answer for the OP?

There's nothing at ALL good about what this person posted. FAA isn't all that keen on popping psych pills "only when needed" without telling them about it.

Someone recommended Doc Bruce. They're right. If this person tries the "I only need the pills once in a while" game with him, I can bet I know exactly what he's going to say to that... and it's going to be some real cold and real hard truth. He'll be polite, but he's not going to accept that. He's heard that story from every addict he's ever worked with. (As have all who've worked with addicts. Myself included. I'm no Doc, but that's the same story from everyone. Once in a great while it's true. Usually it's an excuse to pop pills.)

He can tell the OP how to get right with FAA, and they're already on the wrong side of that right now. It'll include not lying to them.

I suggest if it's really just a mistake (Doc won't be buying that it's a "mistake" if they already reported no use of these drugs -- because that's a lie on a Federal application, and wasn't a mistake...) they better call him Monday. Not next week. Not Tuesday. Monday. First thing.

Or the OP can take their chances that FAA will never find out and must STOP now and forever even messing with psych drugs without reporting.

It's not a good scenario. Not at all.

Call Bruce. Don't lie. Stop taking the damned pills. Answer his questions and then do exactly what he says. There. That's the TL;DR version right there.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Bruce, is it possible to prescribe the drugs without the ADHD diagnosis (such as the example I gave)?

I had the doc on my last ship offer to prescribe it (Ritalin or Aderall, I don't remember which) for weight loss (apparently he had already done it for two other guys in the wardroom). I told him, in no uncertain terms, "hell no!"
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The only other acceptable and ("insurance paid"- HCFA) use is in terminal cancer care, when you have 600mgms of morphine aboard and you get too sleepy. It IS recognized and dispensed and reimbursed for THAT indication.

Unfortunately, that diagnosis is ALSO grounding.
 
If you don't have a prescription in your name, never been diagnosed and your name, DOB, SS are not in any databases, unless you pile the plane in chances are overwhelming no one is ever going to know.

I'm not going to jump on your back for popping some of those for college late night homework, I've known folks who did that back in the day, not the end of the world IMHO, not exactly good ether
 
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Just sayin', if you're gonna lie to the FAA, just get the drugs off the Internet from a foreign country. There are safe ways to do that. Problem soved.

Works.
 
bbchien said:
The only other acceptable and ("insurance paid"- HCFA) use is in terminal cancer care, when you have 600mgms of morphine aboard and you get too sleepy. It IS recognized and dispensed and reimbursed for THAT indication.

Unfortunately, that diagnosis is ALSO grounding.
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So, basically, there are people getting the diagnosis without even realizing it....scary stuff. As a pilot, you really need to be asking the right questions before letting your healthcare provider prescribe meds.
 
18 U.S. Code § 1001
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So, basically, there are people getting the diagnosis without even realizing it....scary stuff. As a pilot, you really need to be asking the right questions before letting your healthcare provider prescribe meds.
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not only that but in another thread, those kids who were diagnosed with ADHD and were put on any of the Adhd meds are now and eventually get old enough and financially able enough to want to fly. They really had no say in the diagnosis or treatment being minors.
 
JeffDG said:
18 U.S. Code § 1001
.
.
.
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There is that.

More likely than getting pinched by the feds is a state level prosecution for possession of a controlled dangerous substance without a valid prescription.
 
weilke said:
There is that.

More likely than getting pinched by the feds is a state level prosecution for possession of a controlled dangerous substance without a valid prescription.
Click to expand...


Yep, but if you lie on your medical application, that the law the Feds can ding you with.
 
First principles. . .what data about yourself are you revealing, and who will have it? The Doctor,of course. And he'll sacrifice you like a voodoo chicken if the Feds lean on him. And for a controlled substance, the pharmacy, and whoever they share it with. Or allow to breach their system. . .

Will the local/state yahoos share it with the FAA? And/or will another Fed entity with your info allow a fishing expedition by the FAA? Probably not for you, individually, unless you, personally, come under FAA suspicion. I don't think the FAA is being allowed to troll medical databases looking to match pilots to treatment/prescriptions. At least not yet.

So, if you need/want the med, you don't/don't want a paper or digital trail leading back to you. You could research methods of obtaining what you want that protect your identity. I haven't had to do so myself, so I don;t have specifics to offer, but an evening's research (on someone else's computer) would probably get you some good ideas.

I think (and could be wrong) the FAA usually detects drug use in the autopsy - no worries for you there, either way. I've never been stopped and asked to pee in a bottle or give a blood sample, not when flying as a civilian on a Class III medical. I really don;t know, but I assume they (the FAA) don't have random drug test powers.
 
scooby.doo2016@yahoo.com said:
Hello everyone,
My question is, if someone who's never been diagnosed with ADHD but knows someone who can prescribe the medications for him/her, how is FAA going to find out about the medication?

If the doctor is paid in cash and he hands in a paper note for prescriptions and then the note is taken to the pharmacy and also paid in cash, how is this going to be tracked?

How would you go about in the case of FAA medical exam form 8500-8?
I only take them when I have a heavy load just so I could finish my hw on time. I don't take them during breaks, or school days just on the days where I need to get work done. I need to mention this again, I was never diagnosed and will probably never be diagnosed of having ADHD.

This is my second time getting them in my whole life. The 2nd time I got the prescription was about a month ago.
Click to expand...

All medical records, including pharmacy, are now linked thanks to ACA efficiency in auditing requirements. So you need to find a doctor who will treat you for cash under a false name that also has a dispensary on site. That way nothing has your name connected to your drugs or disorder.
 
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Sundancer said:
First principles. . .what data about yourself are you revealing, and who will have it? The Doctor,of course. And he'll sacrifice you like a voodoo chicken if the Feds lean on him. And for a controlled substance, the pharmacy, and whoever they share it with. Or allow to breach their system. . .

Will the local/state yahoos share it with the FAA? And/or will another Fed entity with your info allow a fishing expedition by the FAA? Probably not for you, individually, unless you, personally, come under FAA suspicion. I don't think the FAA is being allowed to troll medical databases looking to match pilots to treatment/prescriptions. At least not yet.

So, if you need/want the med, you don't/don't want a paper or digital trail leading back to you. You could research methods of obtaining what you want that protect your identity. I haven't had to do so myself, so I don;t have specifics to offer, but an evening's research (on someone else's computer) would probably get you some good ideas.

I think (and could be wrong) the FAA usually detects drug use in the autopsy - no worries for you there, either way. I've never been stopped and asked to pee in a bottle or give a blood sample, not when flying as a civilian on a Class III medical. I really don;t know, but I assume they (the FAA) don't have random drug test powers.
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You are right. See I don't want to lie that I took them because that is just plain wrong and I am aware of the consequences. As I mentioned I do not take them and will not. I still have my last bottle of prescription that I got and have not used it. I just want to do the right thing and also be able to get my ppl.
 
weilke said:
Many states these days have a prescription drug monitoring program. A name, a date of birth, and you can look up what controlled substances have been dispensed to that person (and who prescribed them). For PDM, it does not matter whether the prescriber was paid in cash, it matters that the patient receives the drug from a state and fed registered pharmacy. I don't know whether the FAA has access to the state PDM programs, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't.

There are a couple ways around having your scripts show up in the state database, all of them require the commission of felonies :wink2: .


How about you just sit down, do your homework like god intended, after you down about 1/2 a pot of coffee :D .
Click to expand...
See one thing people got wrong or maybe I gave them the wrong expression on my threat was that they thought I wanted to lie. I am fully aware of consequences of falsification on my faa medical and I do not want to face them in any shape or form. I just need to know if it is going to keep me from getting my PPL. I have not used my last prescription and I will not. I even called the pharmacy to see what they are able to do for me on their end.
My question is, if I do mention it on my form will it stop me from getting my medical passed even though I will not taking it?
 
Scooby said:
See one thing people got wrong or maybe I gave them the wrong expression on my threat was that they thought I wanted to lie. I am fully aware of consequences of falsification on my faa medical and I do not want to face them in any shape or form. I just need to know if it is going to keep me from getting my PPL. I have not used my last prescription and I will not. I even called the pharmacy to see what they are able to do for me on their end.
My question is, if I do mention it on my form will it stop me from getting my medical passed even though I will not taking it?
Click to expand...
Then don't lie, for sure. Just don't expect the FAA to deal with you in a efficient manner. Like most bureacracies, Aeromed exists to sustain Aeromed. Any good they do is a side-effect of their existence.

So talk to an AME, with the understanding he's the FAA's front-man; my non-professional opinion is they'll want to know why it was prescribed, if it's still necessary, and/or if you'll continue to use the med.

If it's psychotropic, and you'll need to keep using it, you are probably hosed. If a doctor says you don't need it and you discontinue use, after enough trees have died, paperwork has been lost, found, and resubmitted, and you've written a few checks, you'll get your medical.
 
Scooby said:
See one thing people got wrong or maybe I gave them the wrong expression on my threat was that they thought I wanted to lie...

...My question is, if I do mention it on my form will it stop me from getting my medical passed even though I will not taking it?
Click to expand...

Not "mentioning it" would most likely be interpreted as a lie.
 
Sundancer said:
Then don't lie, for sure. Just don't expect the FAA to deal with you in a efficient manner. Like most bureacracies, Aeromed exists to sustain Aeromed. Any good they do is a side-effect of their existence.

So talk to an AME, with the understanding he's the FAA's front-man; my non-professional opinion is they'll want to know why it was prescribed, if it's still necessary, and/or if you'll continue to use the med.

If it's psychotropic, and you'll need to keep using it, you are probably hosed. If a doctor says you don't need it and you discontinue use, after enough trees have died, paperwork has been lost, found, and resubmitted, and you've written a few checks, you'll get your medical.
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My first reaction to this was .... "what an exaggeration!". After reflecting on my experiences ....... I have to agree. :(
 
I have been reading a lot of these threads about what the FAA can access and how they have all this medical insurance and database information at their fingertips. While I believe that (they are the government after all) I don’t understand a few things.
-
If they have the diagnosis codes and RX info so readily available via the insurance databases, why don’t they verify it during the medical application stage? Why must it take an accident or FAA involvement (hotline, atc, etc.) to start looking? Is this purely a resource issue ?

- I have heard by signing the 8500-8 you are giving consent for them to search your medical records. The only thing I see on the form or MedExpress (online version of form) is authorization to search national driver database. I am not doubting it, but where does it say they can reach into your medical insurance?
 
> . . . sacrifice you like a voodoo chicken . . ."

That's a keeper. I'm stealing that one.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I believe that most (if not all) ADHD meds are narcotics/controlled substances, so even if you find a doc who writes a paper script and you pay cash, the pharmacy will make a record of it....in other words, you are probably in a computer database.

I also believe that they can't prescribe the meds without an ADHD diagnosis, although I have personally known of docs in the Navy prescribing ADHD meds to people for the purpose of weight loss, so I am not sure how it works.

But, regardless of whether I am right or wrong on the above, don't expect much help on this. Like Unit74 said, this has fail written all over it. You've admitted to using a med that is forbidden by the FAA and seem to be looking for a way to hide it. I don't think you are going to get much help there.

If you don't have ADHD, then you don't need the meds. But if you have already taken the medication, you really need to get with an AME like Bruce Chien who can at least properly advise you on what you would need to do to make it right.....but you will find that it is going to be a very expensive process.
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There is always people out there that are willing to write you a prescription as long as they are being paid. I got mine without a prescription. It is as easy as going to a drug store to get some cold medicine.

Too bad you agreed with Unit74. My case turns out to be the simplest. As I mentioned previously, I was never diagnosed with ADD and I've always been a above average student. Please next time think a little and if you don't know the process you can always stay quiet. Thanks

Just so you know, after this post I applied and guess what? I got the eligibility letter after two weeks. Side note: I told them I took adderall.
 
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