How do you know when you're ready for the CFII?

[dmccormack]

The way the curriculum is set up, at least when I was learning, most of the emphasis was on learning how to do the various approaches. I think the requirement is for only one cross-country instrument flight. Sure you learn how to talk to ATC and ask for multiple approaches, but you don't get much experience transitioning to and from the enroute structure or getting unexpected routing changes. Then there's learning how to plan for weather, other than the local weather.

Very true. I was my CFII's first (and only) IFR student. Most of the time I was laying out the currculum for him. That was fine for me, and I learned plenty. He just wasn't focused on the Big Picture, whereas I was. And that was fine too.

Despite some protest to the contrary in another thread, the vast majority of learning happens far from CFI/CFII supervision.

 

[KennyFlys]

Despite some protest to the contrary in another thread, the vast majority of learning happens far from CFI/CFII supervision.

That's what I would prefer to happen. While I'd rather have more of a discussion to fill in blanks and clarify subjects during ground sessions, I'll gladly charge to spoon-feed the information... which will also increase the amount of time it takes to complete the ticket.

 

[Henning]

The way the curriculum is set up, at least when I was learning, most of the emphasis was on learning how to do the various approaches. I think the requirement is for only one cross-country instrument flight. Sure you learn how to talk to ATC and ask for multiple approaches, but you don't get much experience transitioning to and from the enroute structure or getting unexpected routing changes. Then there's learning how to plan for weather, other than the local weather.

My training was a bit different, we slammed it in a week, Day one was controlling the airplane. After that it was "off we go"... We flew in the system for real (a good bit of it in actual) and shot an approach into every airport that had one in CA (including PARs at several military facilities) between the Bay Area and Mexican border. We'd also fly the full missed procedure occasionally. It made for a really long week, and this was in a 172 that had a single KX 170B and an ADF, that's it. It also left me with no doubt in my mind that I could handle anything the system threw at me. For what he didn't charge me in money ($30hr wet w/ instructor) he got out of me in sweat.

 

[bbchien]

My CFI-I add on prep was two days. But I had about 2000 hours in IMC in various seats of varying aircraft, and about 70 in the right seat of the Mooney in which I took the ride.

The transition team (CFI-I-MEI) and DPE decided after the first day to schedule the ride the second day.

I agree that most of the learning does not come out of the add-on training. It comes from real system use, real study of weather....

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice on how to know when one is prepared for the CFII.

(Based on what I read here, I should not even consider it until I am 90 years old with 20,000 hours of actual IMC!!!)

 

[GigG601XL]

My Grandfather told me years ago when I was getting my PPSEL that when time came to get my instrument ticket to look at the instructors log book. If they are still logging all of their instrument time they don't have enough time to be teaching.

 

[Areeda]

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice on how to know when one is prepared for the CFII.

(Based on what I read here, I should not even consider it until I am 90 years old with 20,000 hours of actual IMC!!!)

Ben,

This has bothered me since you posted it. I can see how you got that impression but I'm not sure it's accurate. I hope you were joking.

Think back to what you've learned since you got your CFI. Are you a better instructor now than you were then? Were you a "bad" instructor then?

I feel strongly that we can teach our students the foundation to be better pilots than we are. A good instructor can teach people of all levels.

As one of the few CFIs in SoCal with a T28 type rating I have done flight reviews with people in their 60's and 70' with well more than 20,000 hrs of flying. These people are better pilots in all respect than I dream about becoming. They think they got their money's worth.

On the other hand I don't think I could do a worthwhile IPC for Ron Levy or Bruce Chien (and Greg and a bunch more on these boards), at least not for a few more years (like 40 or 50).

Joe

 

[brcase]

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice on how to know when one is prepared for the CFII.

(Based on what I read here, I should not even consider it until I am 90 years old with 20,000 hours of actual IMC!!!)

Thats Right Quite Frankly, how much of that experience really sinks into a 20 hour instrument pilot that is still just trying understand what ATC is asking him to do. Now if you can convinence him to fly with you after he gets his rating and do some cross country flying with you then you can really start imparting some of that experience.

If you teach in an area where you can do some IMC flying you will probably get as much out of flying in it as the student will.

If you can meet the PTS requirements then you are ready. You have been instructing long enough that you should know if you can meet the PTS requirements or not. The additional thing you really need to know about Instrument Instruction is how to be comfortable enough to ask dumb questions to other CFII's, DPE's, and most of all ATC.

When you are comfortable with following radio call you are ready. "XYZ Approach, I have no Idea what that means, what exactly do you want us to do?" It is good to have a student hear you say that because if you can do then they can to.

After two years and a couple hundred hours of providing primary instruction, you should find the CFII checkride very easy. Especially compared to what you when through for your CFI.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Don Jones]

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice on how to know when one is prepared for the CFII.

(Based on what I read here, I should not even consider it until I am 90 years old with 20,000 hours of actual IMC!!!)

This is what I did Ben. When I reached the point you are at right now, I marched into my flight instructor's office (he is also my boss at the school) and handed him my logbook and said: " I have my II ride scheduled Saturday, sign my book" which he did! 2 days later the checkride was done. Quit fretting about it and get it over with. It sounds like you are as ready as you will ever be!!!

 

[KennyFlys]

Both my CFI rides, I had doubts. It's natural. In both cases, a point came where I decided I just need to go do it and see what happens. Sometimes, you're not sure of what you don't know. You can quiz forever but it has limitations. Ya gotta go find the truth for yourself and ya can't do that just sitting back and wondering.

 

[gprellwitz]

I can't really answer the question you posed, but I can strongly concur that the instrument rating itself really is about ADM, though that's not how the regs, and more particularly the recency requirements, are written. Having just finished a trip in which we logged about 5 hours of actual, I can say that we didn't need to shoot one approach.

The challenges were more along the lines of:
- How do I make sure that we don't let "get-there-itis" force us into something stupid? (Certainly not unique to IFR flight.)
- How do I work with ATC to get a routing that will keep/get me out of icing? Out of thunderstorms?
- What options do I have if it's apparent that I have an imminent (or actual) encounter with one of the above?
- How do I recognize icing at night?
- How do I detect a storm at night if it isn't producing lightning?
- How do I proceed if I have an equipment failure?
- How do I request a new destination en route?
- What do you do when ATC gives you a routing that heads you towards the weather to assist their flow control into a major event?

You certainly don't need to experience all of these in order to instruct instrument flying. However, it can certainly be helpful to get an understanding that you can pass along to the student. Note that for most of them you don't actually need to be in the clouds, but you do need to be near them.

Being able to bring up real-life examples from your own experiences when discussing this sort of thing adds depth and vibrancy that I think the students will recognize and appreciate. That said, being able to bring up the possibilities from reading them on a board is certainly a lot better than not being able to provide any examples to the students!


Edit: Note that I'm not saying that you have to have this before you go for your CFII. Just that it's good experience to have as you instruct!

 

[LearDriver]

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice on how to know when one is prepared for the CFII.

(Based on what I read here, I should not even consider it until I am 90 years old with 20,000 hours of actual IMC!!!)

Just pin down your instructor for a signature and go take the ride already. You have a CFI and an instrument rating and you have done the training for the CFII. Do you feel like you are ready for the ride?

 

[LearDriver]

I've seen CFI's with only 50 hours of logged instrument time, virtually none actual, and zero experience outside the training environment. While they can get trainees through the practical test, they usually aren't particularly effective in preparing their trainees for real-world IFR operations. That's one reason PIC gets as many clients as we do despite our high price compared to the local FBO/flight school instructors -- our clients want to be able to fly safely in the system on their own as soon as they pass their checkride, not just get the rating.

Its pretty common out west to not have much actual time. When it is IMC conditions its also icing. Unless you operate on the coast and get to operate in the marine layer there isn't usually much opportunity to get a significant amount of cloud time. Our winter storms out here are usually weather that quickly exceeds the capability of light GA aircraft.

 

[poadeleted20]

Its pretty common out west to not have much actual time. When it is IMC conditions its also icing. Unless you operate on the coast and get to operate in the marine layer there isn't usually much opportunity to get a significant amount of cloud time. Our winter storms out here are usually weather that quickly exceeds the capability of light GA aircraft.

It's not so much the lack of actual instrument time as it is the lack of experience operating in the IFR system, especially in unfamiliar environments. As an instrument instructor, you have to handle communications and negotiations with ATC while you keep situational awareness and continue to monitor and supervise the trainee -- in instrument conditions. That's more than many of those CFI-I's with no real IFR experience can do.

 

[LearDriver]

It's not so much the lack of actual instrument time as it is the lack of experience operating in the IFR system, especially in unfamiliar environments. As an instrument instructor, you have to handle communications and negotiations with ATC while you keep situational awareness and continue to monitor and supervise the trainee -- in instrument conditions. That's more than many of those CFI-I's with no real IFR experience can do.

So how are they supposed to get that experience then? If they don't have the experience from the time that they did their instrument training until they have their CFI and have been instructing then more than likely they aren't going to get it. You learn as much or more by instructing as the student does.

 

[bbchien]

When I did my CFIinitial, the guy who prepared me asked after about three days of ground work and 7 hrs in an Arrow...."Are you ready?". I replied, "What's READY?". My ride was the next day.

What most of the guys are saying, is if you are preparing to the test you might not be ready. When you have a lot of experience and have routinely been comfortable in some of the most bizarre situations I could not have imagined before extensive use of the system.....you are likely ready and just don't know it.

Ready? What's Ready?

 

[poadeleted20]

So how are they supposed to get that experience then? If they don't have the experience from the time that they did their instrument training until they have their CFI and have been instructing then more than likely they aren't going to get it. You learn as much or more by instructing as the student does.

By doing as much non-instrument instructing as possible as well as getting as much IFR pilot time as possible. Few folks in the big schoolhouse operations get any significant IFR piloting experience between getting their IR and getting their initial CFI, and it is those folks whom I've found don't do a real good job teaching instruments.

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

When I did my CFIinitial, the guy who prepared me asked after about three days of ground work and 7 hrs in an Arrow...."Are you ready?". I replied, "What's READY?". My ride was the next day.

What most of the guys are saying, is if you are preparing to the test you might not be ready. When you have a lot of experience and have routinely been comfortable in some of the most bizarre situations I could not have imagined before extensive use of the system.....you are likely ready and just don't know it.

Ready? What's Ready?

Off the top of my head, that sure sounds like me. I have been in some real weird scenarios while training students. All came out safe. All my students passed. I survived. Clean flight record.

Indeed, was reading through the PTS for CFII, and one area focused on emergencies -- what to do if you lose comms, and the practical side of me came shining through with a dozen examples from 600 hours of dual-given. When I researched the correct answers from the Oral Exam Guide, the guide, itself, seemed too shallow.

That's not to say I really feel that I am ready. I don't! But, I must be close!