How Do You Feel About Night XCs

I'm as comfortable as I'm ever going to be flying at night when I'm IFR proficient, have my clip-on lights, and a few light weight inflatable life jackets -one of them tied on, have filed a flight plan exactly for exact route, and along it also see some less hostile landing areas on the chart such as the edges of lakes so I can practice using my life jacket.

Go on O2 earlier than I think I need it.

Standard FARs for fuel.

Engine out: Turn on your BIG landing light, if you don't like what you see, keep it ON and find something a little more to your liking.

There are no beacons when needed, best trick to finding any airstrip is to really know where it is.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
..... best trick to finding any airstrip is to really know where it is.
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Dave brings up a good point and the main reason I had the add my private airport to the database available to the public. I also have it on the sectional too....... The best thing to have is a GPS with a current database and use the ( nearest) button as soon as the motor makes funny noises..:yes::eek:
 
why would you need oxygen higher than 5000? I don't worry till I'm at 12,500

I live in So. Cal. we fly 5-9000 regularly. Is it different in other areas?
 
GAZOO said:
why would you need oxygen higher than 5000? I don't worry till I'm at 12,500

I live in So. Cal. we fly 5-9000 regularly. Is it different in other areas?
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I live at 6500 and in the summer my plane is based at my ranch outside of Pinedale.. The elevation there is right at 8000...

I have lived here for 25 years so I am used to the altitude... The sea level people start to get silly at about 5000 msl or so.. Thats why Ron's suggestion of O2 is a good one...
 
N801BH said:
I live at 6500 and in the summer my plane is based at my ranch outside of Pinedale.. The elevation there is right at 8000...

I have lived here for 25 years so I am used to the altitude... The sea level people start to get silly at about 5000 msl or so.. Thats why Ron's suggestion of O2 is a good one...
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Gotcha
 
I prefer night flying, my wife doesn't.

Night flying in Nebraska is pretty much the same as instrument flying with the black out issue (No ground lights).
 
alfadog said:
I carry a 406 plb. Also, the Everglades are not especially deep so likely you could sit on top of your airplane and await help.
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Just make sure you got something to beat the gators back.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
LDJones said:
Arrive at Provincetown, MA after midnight for a serious black hole experience!
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I can definitely believe that. Closest I have ever been to getting disoriented in an airplane was a night VFR departure from Kona.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Here are some of the questions that came to my mind to write about.....

Do you feel comfortable flying at night? Yes, except I will not fly over large bodies of water. The lack of horizon is unnerving, more so then any other flavor of IMC I've experienced.
 What is different about per-flight, if anything? Use a flashlight, check the lights.
How do you prepare yourself for pitch black engine out situation knowing that picking a landing spot that is actually suitable for emergency scenario would not be an easy task. For those areas beyond glide distance of an airport, I not the less dense areas so that I don't take out anyone on the ground if it hits the fan.
Navigation - do you fly strictly by GPS and/or VOR? Personally, I prefer pilotage/DR with VOR backup.
Does flight following become a "must have" when flying at night? Same as day. I flight follow in busy airspace ever since SoCal explained their issue with us not using FF near B or C space.
Your personal preference on fuel reserves? Far mins plus 30-45 min.
Do you find yourself being more engaged with your checklist flying at night? Same as day.
How do you handle altitude above 5000 without oxygen system? Do you climb higher? Never noticed any vision issues yet. It's impractical to stay below 5000 in some parts of SoCal.
Do you prefer company flying at night? N/A
If equipped, do you use your autopilot more during day or night? N/A
Do you have a personal trick to find the airport? In or near cities, look for the big dark spot. Everywhere else, pilotage/dr and look for the beacon.

Any other thoughts, concerns, techniques you would like to share? Night time is beautiful.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yup.
Can ATC save your bacon? No. I also think it's generally easier to see airplanes at night, and there are fewer of them in the sky, so the traffic advisory portion of flight following doesn't add much value. That said, I usually am either on flight following or an IFR flight plan at night.
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Flight following is as much a courtesy to pilots the TraCon we get it from. It save them from vectoring excesively some poor jet around "unknown traffic" and keeps us from playing "dodge-plane" with JetBlue or whoever. IMO helps to keep the demand for larger B or C space at bay too.
 
GAZOO said:
why would you need oxygen higher than 5000? I don't worry till I'm at 12,500

I live in So. Cal. we fly 5-9000 regularly. Is it different in other areas?
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Review your knowledge book and you'll see that mild hypoxia affects night vision. Also, when on a longer trip and nearing the end of your flight, some increased oxygen might kill some fatigue and sharpen you up.
 
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Do you feel comfortable flying at night? Yes.
What is different about per-flight, if anything? I wear my headlamp/flashlight. :)
How do you prepare yourself for pitch black engine out situation knowing that picking a landing spot that is actually suitable for emergency scenario would not be an easy task. Mostly, I make as certain as I know how that my engine is healthy.
Navigation - do you fly strictly by GPS and/or VOR? GPS
Does flight following become a "must have" when flying at night? Either FF, or IFR. Although ATC can't save you if the fan goes quiet, they can give SAR a better idea of where you went down than a VFR flight plan would.
Your personal preference on fuel reserves? Carry as much as I can, land with at least 90 minutes of fuel.
Do you find yourself being more engaged with your checklist flying at night? Not really.
How do you handle altitude above 5000 without oxygen system? Do you climb higher? I've never been higher than 7000 feet at night. At that altitude I can still clearly see the green from an airport rotating beacon.
Do you prefer company flying at night? Not really. I like company, but I like flying both alone and with company and I don't really have a preference either way.
If equipped, do you use your autopilot more during day or night? It all depends. Some flights I use the A/P, others I mostly hand fly. Long flights I tend to use the A/P. If I feel I need the practice, I hand fly. No particular difference between day or night. If the airspace is empty and conditions are bordering on instrument conditions, I usually hand fly to practice my scan.
Do you have a personal trick to find the airport? If it's an unfamiliar airport, I usually fly an instrument approach. If the airport doesn't have an IAP, I do the best I can visually. If the rotating beacon is OTS or there's no VGSI, I don't land there at night unless I'm familiar with the field.
 
Do you feel comfortable flying at night? YES. Very comfortable

What is different about per-flight, if anything? I find myself wishing for a flashlight sometimes, I finally bought a modern LED one recently. I usually pick higher cruising altitudes. During the day if I'm flying a Cessna 152 I don't see much need to climb higher than 4000ft. or so. At night I prefer to go higher for obstacle clearance.

How do you prepare yourself for pitch black engine out situation knowing that picking a landing spot that is actually suitable for emergency scenario would not be an easy task. I don't.

Navigation - do you fly strictly by GPS and/or VOR? I fly with a paper sectional, a navigation log with compass headings hand written down, and a directional gyro. Within the last year, I got an Android smart phone with Naviator, Avare, and an airplane equipped with Garmin 530. I use VORs when I find one with a large enough service volume.

Does flight following become a "must have" when flying at night? I never use flight following.

Your personal preference on fuel reserves? Cessna 152: full fuel. Mooney M20J: Fuel to the tabs (50 gal).

Do you find yourself being more engaged with your checklist flying at night? I fly the same.


How do you handle altitude above 5000 without oxygen system? Do you climb higher? I dunno, I usually don't climb higher than 7500 or so. I've never used oxygen before.

Do you prefer company flying at night? I always prefer company, usually of the female variety.

If equipped, do you use your autopilot more during day or night? I use the AP all the time if equipped.

Do you have a personal trick to find the airport? When I fly the Mooney, I sometimes don't find the airport until I am over the top of it. Still not used to the extra speed compared to the Cessna 152.

Any other thoughts, concerns, techniques you would like to share? I once caught myself about 30 degrees off course, lost about 400ft., basically entering a graveyard spiral. I was flying at night over a sparsely populated area and lost the visual horizon. I got back on course immediately and my level of mental alertness was at a heightened state. My GF sitting next to me didn't even notice and I never said anything to her for fear of scaring her. I got a little scared realizing what had just happened though. I was about a 120 hour private pilot at that point in time, which was about 90 hours ago.
 
MSPAviator said:
Your personal preference on fuel reserves? Cessna 152: full fuel.
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murphey said:
Your personal preference on fuel reserves? Same as during the day, full tanks.
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Isn't it kind of hard to go anywhere when full tanks is your reserve? :dunno: :D

MSPAviator said:
Do you prefer company flying at night? I always prefer company, usually of the female variety.
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DavidWhite said:
Do you prefer company flying at night? I prefer company at the airport at night, that place freaks me out. I ALWAYS prefer company if it's a cute girl.
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The purpose of the girl is to scream and wake you up when there's an emergency, right? :D
 
steingar said:
Flying over the Everglades made me sweat during the daytime. NO WHERE to put down in the event of an emergency, and I wouldn't expect a quick rescue in that muck. About halfway through I started wondering why I didn't go around it.
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Because "around it" is ocean?

There comes a point where the only choice you have is gators vs. sharks. Really makes you appreciate a good engine monitor...
 
N521MA said:
Any other thoughts, concerns, techniques you would like to share?
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It occurs to me that you asked a lot of questions that have fairly obvious answers, as evidenced by 80%+ of the pilots here giving the same answers!

But, as for "other" - And this has been brought up somewhat by those who are mentioning instrument flying. The same techniques that keep you out of the rocks when you're in IMC will keep you out of the rocks at night. Hills and trees aren't lit, and even here in the relatively flat Midwest there are airports that can kill you pretty easily at night if you launch VFR without considering terrain. Night VFR departure from KLSE got a professional helicopter medevac crew a few years ago, and KOVS could easily cause problems as well.

This has been mentioned, but being able to control the airplane by instruments is important. It's probably *most* important right after takeoff, when the nose may block out any visible horizon, especially when you're down low, as many airports are well outside of town in dark areas. (Even in the east.) Make sure you're comfortable with a Vy climb on instruments.

The thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: IFR departure procedures. I like to check the Obstacle Departure Procedures in the front of the instrument approach books (or under "Takeoff Minimums" in the Plates section of ForeFlight) and follow them. Again, that'll keep you from hitting unlit objects and terrain after departure. If there's no specific ODP, I still use the standard IFR departure of climbing to 400 AGL before any turns. (The other components of this procedure are climbing to at least 50' AGL by the end of the runway, and climbing at least 200'/nm.)

Finally, instrument approach procedures can be used for the same reason, though I'll usually just fly the VASI/PAPI if there is one - The "black hole effect" of making a downward curved final is a strong tendency. If there is no VASI/PAPI I'm extra vigilant to ensure that the runway isn't looking the same throughout the approach, as that indicates you're doing a black-hole approach.

Ask a CFII to teach you about ODP's and get good at controlling the airplane solely by reference to instruments at night.
 
I love night flying... but have been scared a few times.
First, was lightening at night... Even though it was 20 miles away, it seemed like it was on top of me...
second, was over mountains.... very dark below.....

I really enjoy night flying and turn on as many airports as possible.... love to see them light up at night
 
I've always enjoyed the peacefulness of night flight. The older I get the more I enjoy having a second engine out there when enjoying it, but I still fly a fair amount of SE night. In my opinion, there's no such thing as "pilotage" at night...you're either using satellites or navaids unless you're really confident in your dead-reckoning.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This has been mentioned, but being able to control the airplane by instruments is important. It's probably *most* important right after takeoff, when the nose may block out any visible horizon, especially when you're down low, as many airports are well outside of town in dark areas. (Even in the east.) Make sure you're comfortable with a Vy climb on instruments.
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Good point. The most severe case of vertigo I have experienced in 35 years was immediately after departure on my first night solo flight from a very dark, unlit grass strip in rural ND. There were NO visual clues to rely on other than the instruments.
 
LDJones said:
Good point. The most severe case of vertigo I have experienced in 35 years was immediately after departure on my first night solo flight from a very dark, unlit grass strip in rural ND. There were NO visual clues to rely on other than the instruments.
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Doesn't have to be that far in the boonies, either - Same thing happens when the airport is 3-5 miles out of town and there's a hill in between. I've had numerous no-horizon night takeoffs.
 
GAZOO said:
why would you need oxygen higher than 5000? I don't worry till I'm at 12,500

I live in So. Cal. we fly 5-9000 regularly. Is it different in other areas?
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Everyone reacts differently with altitude. The FAA "suggests" O2 at night. I prefer O2 at night for any flights over 30 min (but then my normal cruise is 9.5 - 10.5 and none of my flying is below 7500 except for landings) I've found that for longer flights (more than an hour or so day or night) that O2 really helps reduces the tiredness after landing. I've done 5-8 hour trips with & w/o O2, and with the O2, I'm not nearly as tired with the O2.
 
jmp470 said:
I love night flying... but have been scared a few times.
First, was lightening at night... Even though it was 20 miles away, it seemed like it was on top of me...
second, was over mountains.... very dark below.....

I really enjoy night flying and turn on as many airports as possible.... love to see them light up at night
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Rule of thumb (not just my rule, but most people rules) out here in the big hills - no single-engine night VFR in or out of the hills. (Unless of course it's a Pilatus or F16) If I'm not on the desired side of the Rockies by dusk, I park the airplane and find someplace to stay until the next morning. If I'm on my way home (Denver area) then I want to be on the east side. It is not negotiable, and I will never and I mean NEVER violate that rule. Once where my schedule got hosed, I spent the night in Alamosa because I was on the wrong side of the hills.
 
Since the overwhelming number of respondents here feel that night flying is no biggie, I might as well insert a counter point. First off, I'm sort of assuming the thread is mostly directed at pilots of singles. If I flew a twin, I would probably feel a little different.

I basically consider night flight to be on par with flying over the Sierras, over urban areas, or over large forests. Yes the airplane doesn't know the difference, but the engines in these things do quit and when they do, at night, your chances of survival dip well below that of day time.

Here's a fun game. Next time you're out flying at night, randomly pick spot in your cruise where you "lost your engine" and pick a spot that you would aim for landing. (We should all be doing this anyways on all flights.) Then go back to that place in the day and see how it might have turned out for you at night. The night covers a lot of obstacles that will kill you.

Will I fly at night? Yes if I have to. Do I prefer it? No way.

N521MA said:
Do you feel comfortable flying at night? Not 100%, no. To me, it's like crossing the Atlantic Ocean, or the Rockies.
What is different about per-flight, if anything? Make sure your landing light is working, your interior lights work and your flashlight works.
How do you prepare yourself for pitch black engine out situation knowing that picking a landing spot that is actually suitable for emergency scenario would not be an easy task. Unlike those that toss out the tired landing light joke, I plan my route to be along the path of airports, this means I'll probably not going direct. I will also choose a course over flat terrain if possible. If all else fails, depending on the lighting conditions, look for the country road, or a body of water. After that, revert to the landing light joke.
Navigation - do you fly strictly by GPS and/or VOR? GPS is the most accurate, so I use that.
Does flight following become a "must have" when flying at night? It is if I'm flying in unfamiliar airspace where I don't have the frequencies memorized.
Your personal preference on fuel reserves? The same as day. 1 hour.
Do you find yourself being more engaged with your checklist flying at night? No.
How do you handle altitude above 5000 without oxygen system? Do you climb higher? I fly higher than 5000 on most trips, day or night. As to the night vision problem, once you descend, the vision should return with greater oxygen. Cruise flight at night is not to demanding of your vision.
Do you prefer company flying at night? I suppose it would help distract me. Haven't had a passenger at night in years.
If equipped, do you use your autopilot more during day or night? Just the same as day. Use it if you want to. It's wonderful tool and I love mine, but I have no problem hand flying at night, just switch to instrument flying.
Do you have a personal trick to find the airport? GPS, beacon, runway lighting. Works every time.
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Dav8or said:
Since the overwhelming number of respondents here feel that night flying is no biggie, I might as well insert a counter point. First off, I'm sort of assuming the thread is mostly directed at pilots of singles. If I flew a twin, I would probably feel a little different.

I basically consider night flight to be on par with flying over the Sierras, over urban areas, or over large forests. Yes the airplane doesn't know the difference, but the engines in these things do quit and when they do, at night, your chances of survival dip well below that of day time.

Here's a fun game. Next time you're out flying at night, randomly pick spot in your cruise where you "lost your engine" and pick a spot that you would aim for landing. (We should all be doing this anyways on all flights.) Then go back to that place in the day and see how it might have turned out for you at night. The night covers a lot of obstacles that will kill you.

Will I fly at night? Yes if I have to. Do I prefer it? No way.
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Very good point. I agree in most cases it will not a good pick ....
 
jmp470 said:
I love night flying... but have been scared a few times.
First, was lightening at night... Even though it was 20 miles away, it seemed like it was on top of me...
second, was over mountains.... very dark below.....

I really enjoy night flying and turn on as many airports as possible.... love to see them light up at night
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The nice thing about lightning at night is that its really hard to miss a thunderstorm. Of course its hard to miss in the daytime too.

Once it gets close enough that you need to dodge it, just put the wingtip on the activity until you are back on course.
 
N521MA said:
Very good point. I agree in most cases it will not a good pick ....
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How about if you are at 8,000 feet and your pick is a lit 5000 foot airport?

At least in my neck of the woods, if you take a map and draw a 12nm circle around each lit airport, you'll find a lot of overlap.
 
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murphey said:
Everyone reacts differently with altitude. The FAA "suggests" O2 at night. I prefer O2 at night for any flights over 30 min (but then my normal cruise is 9.5 - 10.5 and none of my flying is below 7500 except for landings) I've found that for longer flights (more than an hour or so day or night) that O2 really helps reduces the tiredness after landing. I've done 5-8 hour trips with & w/o O2, and with the O2, I'm not nearly as tired with the O2.
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What do you use for O2?
 
dell30rb said:
How about if you are at 8,000 feet and your pick is a lit 5000 foot airport?

At least in my neck of the woods, if you take a map and draw a 12nm circle around each lit airport, you'll find a lot of overlap.
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Unfortunately, regardless of the region, statistics show different. And the airport was do close by..... Leaves you wondering why he/she dod not see it; it was right next to the crash site.....
 
N521MA said:
Unfortunately, regardless of the region, statistics show different. And the airport was do close by..... Leaves you wondering why he/she dod not see it; it was right next to the crash site.....
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Can you elaborate?
 
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tangopapa said:
Can you elaborate? I, look others who have posted on this thread, are wondering specifically what happened.
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I am just saying statistically. Looking at some reports you see something like:
Cessna/piper, 1 fatally injured. Controlled flight into terrain, visual conditions, owned by school, pilot: CFII, Multi, Transport, Commercial.
 
As all the others have pretty much said night flying is a lot of fun. It is more challenging, not only because of the situational stuff, black holes, loss of ground references if off field landing, O2 recommendations above 5k, etc, but also we tend to be sleepier and more easily fatiqued at night(which I do not believe anyone mentioned). I try to fly at least once a month at night, and truly have not had a bad flight. My wind minimums are less. I remember the "disorientation" I felt once when the wind were blowing is such a fashion that I had a significant crab to keep straight but there was an optical illusion of the plane sliding in a different direction than the plane was really going. I do not recall ever reading about this, and only experienced it that one time so I do not know if it something others have experienced. I tend to be a lot more vigilant in flying at night, than during the day, and triple check everything. My fuel minimums are higher as well (two to three hours). I carry at least five flash lights. I have not flown over 5k but would use O2 if I did for the night vision issues. I do my precheck in the hangar, and then check again outside the hangar. I find landings a tad more difficult at night and I tend to flare slightly low. Some have recommended to keep a small amount of throttle in on landing, I was not taught this, nor have I tried it.

Bottom line, less traffic, calmer winds, more fun!
 
N521MA said:
How do you prepare yourself for pitch black engine out situation knowing that picking a landing spot that is actually suitable for emergency scenario would not be an easy ?
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I'll pull the chute.
 
Dav8or said:
I basically consider night flight to be on par with flying over the Sierras, over urban areas, or over large forests. Yes the airplane doesn't know the difference, but the engines in these things do quit and when they do, at night, your chances of survival dip well below that of day time.
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Or flying over open water... yes I agree. But I do accept the risk of flying in all those conditions (well, I haven't done the Sierras, or any mountains, yet). In fact that's part of my reason for not balking specifically at overwater flights, since it is IMO equally risky in terms of survival probability (or nearly so) to several other kinds of flying that I spend much more time doing than flying over water.

I wouldn't criticize anyone else's decision to not fly at night, or over wilderness, or water, etc. I'm only saying that personally, I consider it an acceptable risk as long as I and my airplane show no signs of imminent failure.
 
I fly at night in a single and go direct, water, forrest, urban, mountains, all of it. I do some things to minimize the risks:

1. Maintain my bird to the highest standards, no compromises
2. Conservative fuel planning
3. Fly the approach into black hole or mountain airports
4. Be talking to someone
 
I do everything I can to avoid XC at night in piston single airplanes.
I do fly XC at night in a piston twin, but only on an IFR flight plan.

It's not just engine failure that I worry about. I've unexpectedly flown into clouds at night when it was supposed to be clear, picked up ice at night when there wasn't any forecast, and lost enough alternators to know that they can die (even new ones) day or night. Like someone said, the airplane doesn't know.

I know I'm in the minority, but single engine night XC doesn't provide me with enough "plan B" for my comfort level.
 
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