How do I set this up?

T

TomRV4

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Tom
I got my instrument rating recently, and I am in Las Vegas right now leaving tomorrow morning from KLAS for a flight to Las Cruces NM.

I received an expected route thru Flight Aware that I haven't run into before. It is:
BLD125030 IGM then direct
I understand the first waypoint is 30 miles off the Boulder City VOR 125 degree radial. I assume after departure from KLAS I need to intercept that point in space.

How do I set that up? I have 2 Garmin 430W's and the Avidyne EX500 PFD and MFD...

Thanks for any suggestions.

Tom
 
User waypoint, by rad/dist from BLD.

There is no interception with that clearance. Just make a flight plan that contains that point, direct from KLAS (or whatever was previously in the clearance), then IGM, then your destination.

You need some more training on that flight deck. There is no guarantee you won't get a reroute in-flight.
 
It involves the OBS knob and the VOR on the GNS, but frankly I'd have to sit in front of it and play for a while to remember how.

Just cheat

Here's the lat/long, just make a waypoint, direct to and direct the VOR.

Coordinates for your waypoint
image.png


RAD/DME, same place
image.jpg
 
James331 said:
It involves the OBS knob and the VOR on the GNS, but frankly I'd have to sit in front of it and play for a while to remember how.

Just cheat

Here's the lat/long, just make a waypoint, direct to and direct the VOR.

Coordinates for your waypoint
image.png


RAD/DME, same place
image.jpg
Click to expand...

OBS won't work unless flying outbound from BLD. That's not in the clearance snippet given.
 
One thing I didn't see mentioned is what your departure might look like. In a place like Las Vegas, I'd probably anticipate some sort of SID. Where you get dumped off from the SID might explain a little on how to proceed from there, or help you anticipate what a controller might clear you to do to get you on course enroute.
 
Thanks for the replies. Naturally, when I called CD for my clearance this morning, it mentioned nothing about the 'BLD125030 IGM' expected routing I got yesterday.

No DP, just radar vectors direct. Boring.

Anyway, I did set up a user waypoint via lat/long as suggested here. I was itching to use it for a new experience but no go. Oh well!

As an aside, flying into McCarran was a non event. It was my first class B main airport landing. The controllers were great. Very busy airspace. We came in from the Phoenix area, and were routed via V562 which goes directly over Lake Mead (great view!) and into the Las Vegas class B. Was cleared for the visual to 19R..."left base straight to the Stratosphere then turn final for 19R. Have a great stay in Las Vegas". Cool experience...
 
Flight aware does that a lot. They'll show the radial and distance then direct but the aircraft ends up getting direct.
 
It was noticeably low according to my passengers. I just got a quick glimpse; still a beautiful lake.

I was too busy contemplating my sure death from flying a little plane into the throes of a major class B airport...
 
As stated earlier, you can enter a user waypoint as VORRADDME, no need to use coordinates.

If you did get that clearance, you would have gotten vectors then "cleared direct" to any point in your flight plan. But you did not get that routing. Most small GA aircraft do not get the SIDS.

Glad you had a good experience.
 
BillTIZ said:
As stated earlier, you can enter a user waypoint as VORRADDME, no need to use coordinates.

If you did get that clearance, you would have gotten vectors then "cleared direct" to any point in your flight plan. But you did not get that routing. Most small GA aircraft do not get the SIDS.

Glad you had a good experience.
Click to expand...
Maybe not at KLAS, but I get assigned a SID almost every time I fly IFR out of an airport that has them.
 
MAKG1 said:
Don't use coordinates unless you have to. Error prone.
Click to expand...

How so?

If you know how to enter lat/long in your GNS, and know how to find it for the radial/DME, like how I showed, I don't see how it's error prone.
 
James331 said:
How so?

If you know how to enter lat/long in your GNS, and know how to find it for the radial/DME, like how I showed, I don't see how it's error prone.
Click to expand...

Entering a user waypoint using radial/DME is not very error prone. Constructing a waypoint using LAT/LON is error prone. The airlines proved that again and again, especially in the days of INS, where all coordinates had to be entered manually.

It happen recently in Australia in a high-tech AB 330:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/07/aviation/airasia-melbourne-malaysia-error/
 
Cant speak to the training of Aussie pilots or the flight deck on a airbus, but with how I did it in foreflight, it's pretty idiot proof.

I don't think the OP had a INS system, also garbage in, garbage out, it's the same if you fat finger and radial/DME as it is if you fat finger a lat/long, and if you're not double checking what you entered compared to what you have on your iPad/notepad you're screwed no matter what method you use, of course that is just common sense.


So here's the break down of what I did.

image.jpg


image.jpg



image.jpg








So easy someone who can't even really "finger paint" can do it ;)
 
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Yup, James. You know more than people who do this sort of stuff for a living.

It is VERY easy to transpose a digit in latitude and longitude. It is much more obvious for a radial and distance, and there are about a third as many numbers to screw up.

The errors that really nail you are the ones that are only a mile or two off, or confusing decimal degrees with dd mm.m and dd mm ss. You used more than one of those in your example, and pardon my bluntness, but that's a very obvious marker for an amateur. And these issues are dramatically reduced for radial and distance.

You asked how it was error prone, got a good answer, and immediately discounted it. The error prone part is copying that string of decimals absolutely correctly into the 430W. You do remember that was the question, right? Oh, and since a 430W takes the correct navigation dd mm.m form and Foreflight doesn't use it, you have some math to do. Correctly.
 
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James331 said:
Cant speak to the training of Aussie pilots or the flight deck on a airbus, but with how I did it in foreflight, it's pretty idiot proof.
Click to expand...
Apparently you didn't read the article. The incident occurred in Australia, but not by Australian pilots.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yup, James. You know more than people who do this sort of stuff for a living.

It is VERY easy to transpose a digit in latitude and longitude. It is much more obvious for a radial and distance, and there are about a third as many numbers to screw up.

The errors that really nail you are the ones that are only a mile or two off, or confusing decimal degrees with dd mm.m and dd mm ss. You used more than one of those in your example, and pardon my bluntness, but that's a very obvious marker for an amateur. And these issues are dramatically reduced for radial and distance.

You asked how it was error prone, got a good answer, and immediately discounted it. The error prone part is copying that string of decimals absolutely correctly into the 430W. You do remember that was the question, right? Oh, and since a 430W takes the correct navigation dd mm.m form and Foreflight doesn't use it, you have some math to do. Correctly.
Click to expand...

Well for one, I do this stuff for a living.

For two, it's not you being blunt, just not grasping what I typed, I clearly stated "...you'll get it in the other format..."

Three, foreflight will, as I clearly and in basic English, even refraining from any big words, demonstrated, will give you GPS waypoints in a few formats, there are settings to get the outputs in FF to match the flavor of your panel mounted box, there is also the quick methods to see the two different formats I demonstrated with the add waypoint vs direct to.

image.jpg



But you were correct on one point, I did immediately discount what you said, entering a lat/long should not be difficult for someone, it's not rocket surgery, and if you ever do any flying in the backcountry you'll find plenty folks use lat/long without issue, also lots of folks in the marine world.
 
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James331 said:
Well for one, I do this stuff for a living.

For two, it's not you being blunt, just not grasping what I typed, I clearly stated "...you'll get it in the other format..."

Three, foreflight will, as I clearly and in basic English, even refraining from any big words, demonstrated, will give you GPS waypoints in a few formats, there are settings to get the outputs in FF to match the flavor of your panel mounted box, there is also the quick methods I demonstrated with the add waypoint vs direct to.

image.jpg



But you were correct on one point, I did immediately discount what you said, entering a lat/long should not be difficult for someone, it's not rocket surgery, and if you ever do any flying in the backcountry you'll find plenty folks use lat/long without issue, also lots of folks in the marine world.
Click to expand...

Really?

You've written a flight planner or designed interfaces?

Your post just screams "amateur." Every part of it. You are a USER. And apparently one not very familiar with transcription errors or how to prevent them. And taking your posts literally, you don't know the difference between an iPad and a 430W..... I really hope that's not true, but you sure left out that part.

I'm sure big tough superduper Alaska pilots shotgun IFR with their iPads all the time, but that's not the question at hand.
 
MAKG1 said:
Really?

You've written a flight planner or designed interfaces?

Your post just screams "amateur." Every part of it. You are a USER. And apparently one not very familiar with transcription errors or how to prevent them.
Click to expand...

Amateur in writing programs, yeah

In flying IFR, backcountry, and using my avionics and occasionally foreflight to get the job done, no.


...break

I see what you were talking about now, my bad.

But yeah, for how I have done stuff like this before, just do the add waypoint "+" and use that lat long, it's also a sniff test, I've found if you do a common screw the pooch on a lat/long it tends to be waaaay off, like it should be very obvious off.
 
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In the INS days, Air New Zealand's flight planning departed plastered a DC-10 on a mountainside in Antarctica in 1979, killing all souls on board. (some 270, or so). This was a frequently flown sightseeing flight. But, one day, a flight planner sitting at a desk screwed up some LAT/LONs, which the crew accepted and dutifully entered into the INSes. The crew did not fat thumb the entries.
 
James331 said:
Amateur in writing programs, yeah

In flying IFR, backcountry, and using my avionics and occasionally foreflight to get the job done, no.


...break

I see what you were talking about now, my bad.

But yeah, for how I have done stuff like this before, just do the add waypoint "+" and use that lat long, it's also a sniff test, I've found if you do a common screw the pooch on a lat/long it tends to be waaaay off, like it should be very obvious off.
Click to expand...

Now we're talking about the same (or at least similar) stuff.

If you screw up whole degrees or a sign, it's pretty obvious if you check visually (SOP for my flights at least). But changing 12 minutes to 21 may not be very obvious, especially in an unfamiliar area, but it's an IFR bust. And there have been way too many examples of people entering 14 30 50 latitude as 14 30.50, which is about a 1/3 mile error. That may not seem like much, but if you're sending a medevac or ground team into forested or rugged terrain to pick a victim up, it's potentially enough to kill. That's why you don't use seconds for navigation.

I've made arrays of user waypoints for aircraft-mounted photography. It's A LOT easier to get it right if the lat/lon is minimized. Generally, you have to use it for one point, but all the rest can be done relative to the first as heading and distance.
 
MAKG1 said:
That may not seem like much, but if you're sending a medevac or ground team into forested or rugged terrain to pick a victim up, it's potentially enough to kill. That's why you don't use seconds for navigation.
Click to expand...
I had been under the impression that this kind of stuff was more often done using MGRS (which the 430 does support, along with UTM, DD MM.mmm, and DD MM SS.s if I remember right; ForeFlight lets you input a location using MGRS@<coordinates> but does not seem to have an option to use MGRS to display coordinates). Does anyone out there actually use MGRS for real-world applications, or just me?

Of course, this is all academic for the OP. If you are cleared to a VOR/radial/DME fix, just put it into the 430 directly and skip the step of converting it to GPS coordinates and then putting them in, which at a minimum doubles your opportunities to screw up.
 
MAKG1 said:
Maybe not at KLAS, but I get assigned a SID almost every time I fly IFR out of an airport that has them.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of the time around here, you'll get Denver 9. Guess what that is?

Radar vectors. Haha.
 
denverpilot said:
The vast majority of the time around here, you'll get Denver 9. Guess what that is?

Radar vectors. Haha.
Click to expand...

Well, that's a lot of SIDs, especially in busy airspace (which is where you need them most).

The usual one out of Oakland is NIMITZ FOUR. Turn right heading 315, radar vectors SAU.
 
For sure,

And I agree flipping numbers can cause issues, I believe there was a Canadian MU2 or similar which crashed recently on approach, think some folks were theorizing a flip of digits on a altimeter setting, based on the impact point.

Still don't think Lat/long is a bad way to go, just got to double check and triple check before you execute.
 
What the Asiana crew did at Melbourne:

"When manually entering the coordinates of the plane's position, the pilot incorrectly entered the longitude from a sign outside the cockpit window as 01519.8 east (15 degrees 19.8 minutes east) instead of 15109.8 east (151 degrees 9.8 minutes east), the report said."

Airbus had a recommended mod to prevent this but most of the AB330 airlines didn't bother.
 
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