How critical is learning glass (and any tips?)

R

R2019

Pre-Flight
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
34
Display Name
Display name:
R2019
My first lesson was in 1998 in a 152 with one nav radio, and I stopped flying not too long after, around 2003. Tried to get back into a few times, but between money and babies and a medical issue, it never happened. I'm finally giving it one last shot, but things may have changed too much.

The only flight school nearby only has G1000's, and I'm struggling with it. Five hours in, and I can barely keep the plane upright. I've got close to 700 hours and a CFI, but glass is my absolute kryptonite.

I've talked to a few friends who've been flying G100's since the beginning of their flying. They've suggested there's something with me that I'm not able to learn this, and maybe they're right. All I want to do is go back to a six-pack, but it sounds like those aren't really used anymore. Am I really out of luck? Any tips to help an old dog learn new tricks?
 
R2019 said:
All I want to do is go back to a six-pack, but it sounds like those aren't really used anymore.
Click to expand...
Oh, they’re definitely still used, just maybe not any around your neck of the woods. I’ve never found glass to be *that* much of an adjustment, at least for the few times that I’ve flown behind it. It’s all the same data, just gives it to you in a different manner.

As for how critical it is to learn glass? Well, if that’s all you’ve got, than I’d say it’s quite critical or else you don’t fly. Keep at it, I’ll bet you’ll get the hang of it before too long!
 
There are a lot of planes still running around with a six-pack.

If all you want to do is pleasure VFR flying, find an independent instructor and/or a flying club with older six pack airplanes. Most flight schools are going to have glass panel equipped aircraft because they figure a lot their students plan to fly for a living, in which case they pretty much must know how to use glass panels.

I wouldn't be surprised if you can find an independent CFI somewhere at your airfield.

IMHO (and many may disagree); if all one wants to do is fly VFR for pleasure, glass panels are more of a distraction than a help. I may be a bit baised though since I learned on and still fly six packs myself.
 
Being away from it as long as you have, maybe 6 pack would be nearly as difficult for you?

You said difficulty keeping upright? I take it you’re trying to fly IFR? Otherwise, outside sight picture is all you need, right? Maybe altimeter...
 
I am presuming you are flying IFR? It's just scan practice. Can take a bit of time for us old geezer six-pack types. Don't give up.

I don't like glass all that much either in bumpy weather - the tapes bounce around too much and I end up reverting to the backup analogue instruments in turbulence.

And there are lots of six-pack airplanes out there still.
 
RyanB said:
As for how critical it is to learn glass? Well, if that’s all you’ve got, than I’d say it’s quite critical or else you don’t fly. Keep at it, I’ll bet you’ll get the hang of it before too long!
Click to expand...

Hasn't happened yet. Is there an online course or something I can take? I feel like it (plus ForeFlight) are a lot of extra information that I have a hard time keeping in my scan - and that's when I can figure out what the display's telling me in the first place.

jrollf said:
IMHO (and many may disagree); if all one wants to do is fly VFR for pleasure, glass panels are more of a distraction than a help. I may be a bit baised though since I learned on and still fly six packs myself.
Click to expand...

Outside of instructing, I'm not sure I've gone anywhere VFR since getting my instrument rating. I have a fresh IPC thanks to a friend across the country who hooked me up on vacation, but I'm already in my grace period since I can't fly any approaches locally. Literally, my first NDB approach in actual was prettier than anything I've done with the G1000.
 
Have you not taken a G1000 training / familiarity course? If not, that would explain the trouble.
 
Are you flying by yourself trying to pick it up, or with a CFI who is proficient with the G1000? I know the flight school I went to requires at least a few hours (4 or so) of flying with a CFI in a G1000 plane before they feel you're ready to go.

EDIT: A few of us are saying the same thing. You/anyone needs training to be able to use it.
 
Your post is a bit vague, what are you trying to accomplish? VFR proficiency? IFR proficiency?
 
All you need to really focus on is the PFD, your Horizon, speed, alt, VSI, heading, CDI. Most everything else you can keep off until you need it. If you are using the G1000, you don’t need to worry about Foreflight until you are proficient on flying the plane.
 
If you already have a simulator, fly some of the g1000 airplane and get used to the interface.

otherwise, look outside and just fly. It shouldn’t take that long to learn where to look inside for a quick scan.

For IFR, just keep going. The g1000 is a lot of system, you just have to learn the scan and get into it.
 
RyanB said:
Have you not taken a G1000 training / familiarity course? If not, that would explain the trouble.
Click to expand...

No. CFI said he's never had anyone require one.
 
dmspilot said:
Your post is a bit vague, what are you trying to accomplish? VFR proficiency? IFR proficiency?
Click to expand...

IFR, mostly. Though I'm not great with it for VFR either - I compensate with decent stick & rudder skills.
 
It took about 2 hours to get comfortable with my G3X. At least for seeing 6-pack information. How to navigate the functions isn't any different that learning a handheld GPS's functions and screens. Once used to a glass display I find it more difficult to go back to round gauges. I switch between old school and G3X regularly and don't find it a problem but there's no question the glass display provides more information in an easier to use format.
 
I went from a six-pack Cessna 182RG to a Velocity with only two big glass screens (literally).

2014-04-20-IMG_20140420_175307644a.jpg


So in addition to going from gauges to glass in one flight, I also went from a 150kt airplane to a 200kt airplane. I will say the first hour or so was frustrating. Having to search for the airspeed, altimeter, VSI, ball (BTW, there wasn't one, it was a "brick").
2018 SNAP0025.PNG
But within 2 hours, I was totally at home. What I would suggest is not even thinking about getting under the hood until you're comfortable. Then just fly around. At some point, checking the airspeed will happen without conscious thought. As will altitude and the rest. IMC (or under the hood) is even easier. The attitude indicator is the entire screen. You don't have to look at it because it's everywhere.

It'll happen.
 
Ultimately instrument flight is pretty basic, and either traditional gyros or glass displays are fine. More important in my opinion is to train the way you intend to fly. In today's cockpits, knowing how to manage the electronic boxes (knobology) is a critical IFR management skill. Might as well learn how to fly what you want to fly from the start.
 
Last edited:
It's critical if you are going to fly glass. Less so if you are not. Arguably glass is the future of aviation but even so, while there are substantial similarities, there are also differences. Some of us can move relatively easily from to one to the other, Garmin to Avidyne to Aspen to Dynon to... Others have a more difficult time of it and would see a steep learning curve even moving around Garmin alone.
 
The G1000 is a complex piece of equipment and another perishable flying skill. It takes a while to learn and you have to stick with it. The procedures to activate approaches, VTF and arming the approach gave me fits while I was training IFR. To this day I don't understand why, it's actually quite simple, just the nature of the beast I guess. I think practice in a simulator is great if you have access. You can address your issues, repeat them until the proper muscle memory is built, and not have to wait 15 minutes to circle around and get to the trouble area again. Stick with it, it will come. Then you will wonder how you flew IFR with out it.
 
R2019 said:
No. CFI said he's never had anyone require one.
Click to expand...
You need a new CFI. I am puzzled that a CFI would say that. Find a CFI who knows how to teach switching to glass. Perhaps the CFI you have has always been on glass as well as all of his/ her students.

Get trained on the G1000 in VFR, get the on line simulator and/ or the Kings course. Do all of that before IFR flying.
 
Last edited:
If you get a plane with a six pack then why bother with glass unless you just like a flashy display or are fashion nut. It's a lot of money for a questionable improvement and I also question having everything tied to a single failure point. (I used a $79 super venturi to power all instruments as a back up). What if the screen fails? Since I practiced IFR using just a T&B and an AN range and made numerous successful approaches and all I had was the single rate gyro (T&B) I have to question the need for even a 6 pack. Try some GCA approaches too as they can be real life savers. BTW the worst thing about the AN ranges was using the cone of silence to determine over the station otherwise the AN ranges were kind of fun. Imagine just an ordinary receiver to fly IFR. Loved that twilight zone.
 
Snowmass said:
If you get a plane with a six pack then why bother with glass unless you just like a flashy display or are fashion nut. It's a lot of money for a questionable improvement and I also question having everything tied to a single failure point. (I used a $79 super venturi to power all instruments as a back up). What if the screen fails? Since I practiced IFR using just a T&B and an AN range and made numerous successful approaches and all I had was the single rate gyro (T&B) I have to question the need for even a 6 pack. Try some GCA approaches too as they can be real life savers. BTW the worst thing about the AN ranges was using the cone of silence to determine over the station otherwise the AN ranges were kind of fun. Imagine just an ordinary receiver to fly IFR. Loved that twilight zone.
Click to expand...

It would be cool to see a comparison of failure rate of older six pack tech to glass panels. In the Cirrus there is a lot of redundancy built into that system... Perspective.
 
I’m totally happy with steam gauges, but in the case you describe it sounds like the right time to make the change to glass.
 
Majority of G1000 piston single planes also have steam gauge backups. I suppose you could fly off those for a while.
 
PaulS said:
It would be cool to see a comparison of failure rate of older six pack tech to glass panels. In the Cirrus there is a lot of redundancy built into that system... Perspective.
Click to expand...
Too broad. Aspen or no aspen? :stirpot:
 
Snowmass said:
It's a lot of money for a questionable improvement and I also question having everything tied to a single failure point
Click to expand...
There aren't many single point failures.. the whole screen might die, sure, but there's a backup to that (MFD reverts to PFD) and you're still getting input from static, pitot, etc., and the whole thing is driven by, at least in the case of the applications I've flown behind, redundant layers of AHARS and ADIRU, with something like a G5 even having its own battery. Never had any issues with any Garmin glass in 500 hrs. Now if we go to steam, I've had vacuum failures and all sorts of odd issues. HSI that don't slave right and precess heavily, VOR gauges that you need to tap the glass to get the CDI to work, altimeters that get stuck at the 200' interval and jump back at the 500' interval.. and all sorts of other fun

Mind you, my last 50 hrs or so were behind steam, and I did my IR on an all steam plane, so I'm familiar with the cone of silence stuff and generally don't prefer either, I'm proficient behind glass and steam, but I feel more worried that something will break in steam planes.

PaulS said:
It would be cool to see a comparison of failure rate of older six pack tech to glass panels
Click to expand...
I doubt it would be a close match. Go rent a random steam club beater and $100 says the first plane you get into will have some INOP'd or otherwise not-working-all-that-well gauge. Then jump in an abused G1000 Skyhawk from a puppymill school and I can nearly guarantee it's going to run perfectly. And to your point, the Cirrus basically has 5 layers of redundancy.. two screens, two ADIRU, two AHARS, and if all that fails, you still have the standby.. which up through the G5 (I believe) were steam... and that's assuming you don't have your own Stratus. You'd have to have a tremendously bad day to lose all that in one Cirrus flight.. but if you and you are IMC you still have the chute!
 
PaulS said:
It would be cool to see a comparison of failure rate of older six pack tech to glass panels. In the Cirrus there is a lot of redundancy built into that system... Perspective.
Click to expand...

I am assuming glass panels are LCDs, in which case they do have a single point of failure - the backlight can fail and then you will see nothing on the screen. I don't know how likely that is in the G1000, but I have had a number of backlight failures on equipment in my laboratory (not aviation-related).
 
sarangan said:
I am assuming glass panels are LCDs, in which case they do have a single point of failure - the backlight can fail and then you will see nothing on the screen. I don't know how likely that is in the G1000, but I have had a number of backlight failures on equipment in my laboratory (not aviation-related).
Click to expand...

The G1000 has two screens and a reversionary mode that is automatic if it senses a failure. If that fails there is a button that manually switches to the reversionary mode which gives you all the necessary info to fly IFR.

It's pretty amazing stuff.
 
PaulS said:
It would be cool to see a comparison of failure rate of older six pack tech to glass panels. In the Cirrus there is a lot of redundancy built into that system... Perspective.
Click to expand...
I envy you in that Cirrus, such a sweet plane! What year is the one you fly?
 
RyanB said:
I envy you in that Cirrus, such a sweet plane! What year is the one you fly?
Click to expand...

I'm renting Ryan, so I've flown a couple brand new G6 NA 22s over the past year, the newest had about 25 hours on it when I flew it. The oldest one in the fleet is a 2017 I believe. I don't care what anyone says they are a hoot to fly.
 
PaulS said:
I'm renting Ryan, so I've flown a couple brand new G6 NA 22s over the past year, the newest had about 25 hours on it when I flew it. The oldest one in the fleet is a 2017 I believe. I don't care what anyone says they are a hoot to fly.
Click to expand...
Very nice...
 
I have a G500 and GTN. When I did my IR, partial panel was dimming the G500 to nothing and using the GTN HSI and analog altimeter and attitude indicator. I actually found it easier in some ways than having the full panel.
 
PaulS said:
I don't care what anyone says they are a hoot to fly.
Click to expand...
I've taken a lot of haters up for a flight.. even an old G1 SR20 leaves people, if not totally sold, very impressed. There's a lot of fake Cirrus "facts" out there (failed spin testing, fly by wire so no feel for it, FADEC engine, can't glide, uncomfortable sidestick, etc) that simply aren't true

I've flown less Cirrus the last few months as I'm building multi time and flying an Aztec that's new to the club (can't beat 6 seats and tons of room for long trips with people) but the Cirrus I contend to be the best overall piston GA currently out that can be bought new. Not perfect, but it does most things very well. Fast, comfortabe, and a proficient pilot can fly it in and out of a 2,500X30 (or less) strip just fine. I could not have taken half the trips I did last year in something else
 
Tantalum said:
I've taken a lot of haters up for a flight.. even an old G1 SR20 leaves people, if not totally sold, very impressed. There's a lot of fake Cirrus "facts" out there (failed spin testing, fly by wire so no feel for it, FADEC engine, can't glide, uncomfortable sidestick, etc) that simply aren't true

I've flown less Cirrus the last few months as I'm building multi time and flying an Aztec that's new to the club (can't beat 6 seats and tons of room for long trips with people) but the Cirrus I contend to be the best overall piston GA currently out that can be bought new. Not perfect, but it does most things very well. Fast, comfortabe, and a proficient pilot can fly it in and out of a 2,500X30 (or less) strip just fine. I could not have taken half the trips I did last year in something else
Click to expand...

First Cirrus I flew was a G1 20, I loved that airplane. Because I rent I'm restricted to 3000 feet on the runway, but I flew a 22T out of San Carlos, 2,600 feet, full load, warm day. Was off in 2,000 feet, but it felt short. Landing was a piece of cake.
 
PaulS said:
VTF and arming the approach gave me fits while I was training IFR. To this day I don't understand why, it's actually quite simple
Click to expand...
Was this your first Garmin? My first time in a G1000 I was safety pilot for a friend. He asked me to load the approach. I asked how. He said, "same as a 430." Done.

OTOH, he told me to set it up as VTF, after which he got "direct" to a fix, so I also leaned about the limitations of VTF,
 
I wasn't much into glass, mostly due to rental price. Give it some time, there are many benefits.

You absolutely should take a training course. It will save you a ton of money. I can't imagine why a CFI wouldn't suggest doing so or mention that nobody does.
 
PaulS said:
First Cirrus I flew was a G1 20, I loved that airplane. Because I rent I'm restricted to 3000 feet on the runway, but I flew a 22T out of San Carlos, 2,600 feet, full load, warm day. Was off in 2,000 feet, but it felt short. Landing was a piece of cake.
Click to expand...
My first Cirrus was a 1st Gen SR22. A friend was on the original waiting list. Since then, not a huge amount of time in them - about 25 hrs in various models from 20 to 22 to 22T - but I think they are great.
 
Plug the plane and turn some knobs on the ground. You can also learn a lot of YouTube. There’s not a whole lot you need to be worried about if you are flying VFR. Your eyes are mostly outside anyway.
 
chemgeek said:
Ultimately instrument flight is pretty basic, and either traditional gyros or glass displays are fine. More important in my opinion is to train the way you intend to fly. In today's cockpits, knowing how to manage the electronic boxes (knobology) is a critical IFR management skill. Might as well learn how to fly what you want to fly from the start.
Click to expand...

I did the train the way I intended to fly. Had no idea that NDB's would be decommissioned, that GPS would take over, and that glass would replace a six-pack in 15 short years.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top