How crazy is buying a 60 year old 172...

You are not going to get your feel-good answer here. Take an independent A&P with you with $5k in one pocket, $1K in the other, another $1k in the truck. Make a determination right there and then to buy or walk, with the prior understanding with your A&P that you want to do better than break-even.

Good deal or not? How the fark should we know? Crazy? Maybe not. Go forth with knowledge in-tow and we hope the best for you. Let us know what happened. Pics encouraged.
 
Brad Z said:
Depending on how much corrosion or "other things wrong" with it, you might inadvertently fly it and part it out at the same time.
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Yer right,, the crankshaft is worth 9 grand.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
You are not going to get your feel-good answer here. Take an independent A&P with you with $5k in one pocket, $1K in the other, another $1k in the truck. Make a determination right there and then to buy or walk, with the prior understanding with your A&P that you want to do better than break-even.

Good deal or not? How the fark should we know? Crazy? Maybe not. Go forth with knowledge in-tow and we hope the best for you. Let us know what happened. Pics encouraged.
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The A&P may want a 401k retirement system. :)
 
Juliet Hotel said:
The only way I'd consider it was if I happened to have $8k laying around that I was otherwise willing to throw into a burning dumpster. Missing logs and lots of problems means it will probably cost more to fix than it will ever be worth. Which means once its no longer safe to fly, its junk. Which means you should go into it planning to either scrap it or part it out once it breaks. It'll be cheap to fly for a while. But how long is an unknown. Get a year out of it, great. Get 3 weeks out of it, not so much. I'm a pessimist. When I hear its got lots of problems that can be seen, I take that as meaning it probably has lots of other problems that can't be seen.
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Ya know, missing logs doesn't mean the work wasn't done. Knowing what you are looking at is better than old paper.
 
Caspar said:
It runs, flies, guy put like $5k into the annual, decent compression on the cylinders, oil pressure is a bit off. Some corrosion was fixed last year during the annual, it flew about 75 hours this past year. Paint is ok, interior needs help. Panel is ‘original’.
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Sunk costs are irrelevant. $5000 spent and he couldn't manage to fix the whiskey compass? That's a required item for flight (14 CFR 91.205).

I'm a little curious about a plane that sounds like it has fuel porting issues, oil pressure issues, and corrosion. I question how much that "fresh annual" is really worth.
 
Tom-D said:
Ya know, missing logs doesn't mean the work wasn't done. Knowing what you are looking at is better than old paper.
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Never said missing logs had anything to do with work being done. Just means the number of potential buyers will be fewer and value of the plane is less. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Tom-D said:
I'd say there are a lot more A&Ps doing great work, than those who aren't, remember 2% of the people make 100% of the news.
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No doubt. And its probably 2% of airplane sellers that cause 100% of the horror horror stories. So it shouldn't be surprising if one of those 2% owners found himself owning something like an old 172 with missing logs and a laundry list of small issues as well as some larger looming issues that weren't readily apparent to the naked eye such as hidden corrosion or the like, that particular 2% owner might be inclined to find himself one of those 2% mechanics to sign off on a pencil whipped annual in order to try to at least get $8k out his scrap value airplane. Not saying that's the case here. Just saying when one consideres it could be the case, one realizes that it might not be such a good idea to just assume that most mechanics are fine upstanding people and therefore if its got a recent annual, there probably isn't anything to worry about with this deal.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
No doubt. And its probably 2% of airplane sellers that cause 100% of the horror horror stories. So it shouldn't be surprising if one of those 2% owners found himself owning something like an old 172 with missing logs and a laundry list of small issues as well as some larger looming issues that weren't readily apparent to the naked eye such as hidden corrosion or the like, that particular 2% owner might be inclined to find himself one of those 2% mechanics to sign off on a pencil whipped annual in order to try to at least get $8k out his scrap value airplane.
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You'd be surprised how well that concept works for a lot of owners.
 
Query the A&P that did the annual. Ask about AD’s, cylinder compression, etc. See if he has any other information (why did you sign off a plane with a non-functioning compass?) that will enlighten you. He would be the go-to source on the true condition of the aircraft. Owner may be unwilling to reveal some items of concern. “Low price” isn’t always a way to save money on an airplane purchase.
 
An $8000 172? I'd buy it. Worse case scenario, you part it out and break even. Since it has an annual, I'd fly the heck out of it. If nothing else, free hours.
 
Tom-D said:
How many people here copied that it flew 75 hours in the last year?

How bad can it be?
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I'll bet that ERU PA-28 Arrow flew at least 75 hrs in the last year. How bad can it be?
 
Tom-D said:
You'd be surprised how well that concept works for a lot of owners.
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I wouldn't be surprised at all. I know it works great. Right up until it doesn't. One of my old bosses never did any kind of pre-buy other than with his own eyes. He got lucky a bunch of times and ended up with some very decent planes. He also bought a few that ended up rolled up into a ball in a cornfield on the flight home from the purchase. Also bought one that looked great, flew great and had great looking logs. But when we pulled some fabric off we found you could push holes in the frame with an awe without even trying. Turns out those great looking logs had an entry about the plane going upside down in the bay while on floats. But someone saw their way fit to staple transponder cert tags right over top of that particular entry.

To this day, he still buys planes without any kind of pre-buy and chalks it up to he's had good luck more times than he's had bad luck. I just don't see that as sound judgement but that's me.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I wouldn't be surprised at all. I know it works great. Right up until it doesn't. One of my old bosses never did any kind of pre-buy other than with his own eyes. He got lucky a bunch of times and ended up with some very decent planes. He also bought a few that ended up rolled up into a ball in a cornfield on the flight home from the purchase. Also bought one that looked great, flew great and had great looking logs. But when we pulled some fabric off we found you could push holes in the frame with an awe without even trying. Turns out those great looking logs had an entry about the plane going upside down in the bay while on floats. But someone saw their way fit to staple transponder cert tags right over top of that particular entry.

To this day, he still buys planes without any kind of pre-buy and chalks it up to he's had good luck more times than he's had bad luck. I just don't see that as sound judgement but that's me.
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I know I am a pool of 1, but I bought a good looking plane with a pre-buy from a seller that is supposedly well known to be a solid guy that takes care of his planes. The real story is something totally different. I thought I was in the good luck camp until the report came back on my first annual. Buyer beware totally fits me.
 
Used aircraft sales and representation makes used cars sales look like the sainthood.
 
I’ve got no skin in the game but my advice is if you’re going to be a successful “bottom feeder” in the used aircraft market, you’d best know what you’re doing. That means you’re 1) either an A&P, or have close access to low cost A&P willing to oversee your work, 2) access to low-cost parts and supplies, and 3) are willing/able/patient enough to be able to part out the plane if necessary and have the facilities to do so. While someone like Tom-D might meet this criteria, for most of us picking up an airplane like this represents buying someone else’s headache of decades of deferred maintenance. Most likely if you meet this criteria, you’re not coming on a pilot forum asking if it’s a good idea; you’d have already peeled off some bills—-or alternatively ran for the hills—depending on what you saw taking a closer look.
 
Tom-D said:
How many people here copied that it flew 75 hours in the last year?

How bad can it be?
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I did. Doesn’t matter. Just about every Annual nightmare scenario posted on POA was preceded by plenty of flying in an otherwise airworthy airplane...until it wasn’t.
 
"A little corrosion...." Is that like being a little bit pregnant?

I might do it, if I had no dependents, and was gonna fly solo only.
 
I've got a 1955 Cessna 180, I see no problem with buying an older Cessna as long as it gets a good inspection.
 
Tom-D said:
why is that important to an owner?
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I’d like to know that anything added (replacement of the Narco Superhomer, addition of a transponder) was done somewhat legally.

Sounds to me like an airplane that’ll be on Corrosion Row, sooner or later.
 
FlySince9 said:
I got the idea it was the age not the asking price that was driving his decision...
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Can't speak for anyone but me, but I strongly suspect that for most who are apprehensive about this, both age and asking price are factors, but asking price much more so than age.

Asking price is telling. It screams red flags. And I don't think being wary of a dirt cheap price is all that unusual. At one point my wife's job forced us to relocate. Her company gave us a very sweet relocation deal. Part of that deal included the selling of our house. If we sold for anything less than the greater of then current market value or what we originally paid, they would pay us the difference. And if we sold in less than 90 days, they would give us a $10k bonus. If we didn't sell in 90 days, they buy the house from us and then its their problem.

So there was lots of motivation on our end to get the place sold at any price. We listed it and got an offer that was about $100k below ask (this was just as the market was tanking). We immediately accepted the offer. As a result, buyer rescinded the offer and walked. Nothing wrong with the house, but the buyer figured if we were eager to sell at any price, there therefore MUST be some extreme issues with the house. There was no issue, its just that we weren't losing any money on the deal so it didn't matter to us what the offer was. Completely understandable. In retrospect, I probably would've walked too in that case.

Thing is, I have a hard time imaging the owner of this 172 got some sort of corporate relocation deal that included a clause to get the airplane sold at any price and we'll pay you the difference to offset any loss you take.
 
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I appreciate all the feed back! I am looking for a fun project, a learning experience, a way to get my hands on something that I can't F up too much, something that flies, something I can have some fun with.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Can't speak for anyone but me, but I strongly suspect that for most who are apprehensive about this, both age and asking price are factors, but asking price much moreso than age.
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Price, how so?
 
Brad Z said:
I’ve got no skin in the game but my advice is if you’re going to be a successful “bottom feeder” in the used aircraft market, you’d best know what you’re doing. That means you’re 1) either an A&P, or have close access to low cost A&P willing to oversee your work, 2) access to low-cost parts and supplies, and 3) are willing/able/patient enough to be able to part out the plane if necessary and have the facilities to do so. While someone like Tom-D might meet this criteria, for most of us picking up an airplane like this represents buying someone else’s headache of decades of deferred maintenance. Most likely if you meet this criteria, you’re not coming on a pilot forum asking if it’s a good idea; you’d have already peeled off some bills—-or alternatively ran for the hills—depending on what you saw taking a closer look.
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1. Not an A&P myself but I work well with others ;)
2. Barnstormers? Salvage?
3. Its a project with a little time and effort almost anything I can be fixed
 
Sundancer said:
"A little corrosion...." Is that like being a little bit pregnant?.
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A little corrosion ? I'll bet I can find a little corrosion on your aircraft. All metal aircraft have corrosion, and I'd expect a 60 year old aircraft to have corrosion.
Doesn't mean it isn't airworthy.
 
I am amazed at how much people on POA can find wrong with an aircraft they know nothing about.
 
Caspar said:
Price, how so?
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The plane is said to be airworthy but rough. For a 172 of any age, that means we're talking in the range of $20k. Asking $8k means someone wants rid of it and doesn't care about taking a loss on it. Like the case of my wife and I having a sweet relocation deal, there might be a perfectly rational reason why someone is willing to take such a loss. But knowing how airplane sales can go, one would be foolish not to wonder if the plane isn't nearly as airworthy as its being represented. And if it isn't, why would you want to trust your life to it?
 
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