How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

[GeorgeC]

I got checked out in a glass/AP PiperSport a few weeks ago and thought I'd share my first impressions of a technically advanced aircraft.

I found it slower to look down and read the airspeed and altitude tapes than to just glance at a gauge. Having traffic info was nice, but it also served to draw my eyes inside rather than outside (see also the thread on XM weather being strategic rather than tactical...). Talking car GPSes really irritate me, and having the plane talk to me also surprised and would probably eventually annoy me.

I also felt that turning on the AP reduced situational awareness for me, as it suddenly felt like I was riding in an airplane rather than flying it.

So, for all the technology that was supposed to reduce my workload, I actually ended up feeling a little behind the airplane.

I attribute this mainly to the fact that I was unfamiliar with the aircraft and suspect that I will become more comfortable with more time in type.

The question is, as a low time (80 hrs) pilot, should I do more hand flying with six pack gauges? I fear that the glass/AP will make me complacent. On the other hand, if better tools and information are available to you, it's foolish not to use them.

As with anything, I suspect this is not an either/or question, and that the answer is to fly more of both, but I am curious to hear others' thoughts.

Discuss(tm).

 

[Inverted]

The PiperSport isnt a TAA as it does not have an IFR approved GPS as far as I know. Its not surprising you are finding your head down in the cockpit more. Glass cockpit systems will reduce your workload during a technically high workload, like that manual diversion during a cross country scenario. Instead of looking on a sectional, plotting, calculating etc. You just hit nearest, direct, enter, enter and everything is done for you. But for the normal clear VFR fun flight it can be distracting to a pilot who isnt used to glass in the first place. There is much more information and equipment at your fingertips, its only natural that it take more of your attention, especially when you are playing with the system trying to get used to it.

I am not sure why turning on the AP reduced your SA. It shouldn't really change your SA, it should reduce your workload.

I don't think your time has anything to do with whether or not you should fly the PiperSport or fly steam gauge. The PiperSport is a new world trainer. Glass is going to be the norm, and is quickly becoming so. I would say keep flying it, really get to know how to work the cockpit and it will get easier to manage.

 

[Clark1961]

Flying with the AP on x-country flights is good, particularly if landmarks are absent. It does take a conscious effort to remain a pilot rather than a passenger (what's it doing now?)

Getting used to the tapes takes awhile but I doubt it has any particular benefit or detriment to flying skills.

At 80 hours your hand flying skills are actually probably pretty good. It helps to continue to do training maneuvers ( stalls, steep turns, ground ref, etc.). Learning to use the AP and staying ahead of the aircraft is just another step in the continual process of learning to fly.

 

[Everskyward]

I also felt that turning on the AP reduced situational awareness for me, as it suddenly felt like I was riding in an airplane rather than flying it.

Really you are monitoring the airplane rather than flying it in a physical sense. What you are missing is the immediate tactile feedback. This takes some getting used to but, as others have said, being able to free part of your attention from keeping the airplane on course an altitude allows you to do other things more efficiently.

 

[jnmeade]

I also felt that turning on the AP reduced situational awareness for me, as it suddenly felt like I was riding in an airplane rather than flying it.

(tm).

This year, I finally bought and installed autosteer on my 1973 tractor and used it for spraying herbicides and even planted soybeans using GPS/autosteer instead of the markers.

The result is that I became less of a tractor operator and more of a farmer. When you are planting with the markers, it's like you're flying an ILS in actual. You spend most of your time tracking the markers so you stay straight and your eyes take little excursions to do other things. Looking back to look at the planter is very distracting and more than about 3 seconds and you can bet you are off the mark when your eyes go back front. Even with all the monitors available, you are still planting based on faith that the seed is going where you want it.

With autosteer, you can turn around in seat and watch the planter in detail. You can see how the row cleaners are working in the residue. You can see if each row unit is tracking the terrain naturally and all the chains are running as expected. If a monitor has indicated something with one row unit, you can focus on it for minutes at a time. In my opinion, I operate at a higher management level when I have time to do more than just steering.

In other words, letting the A/P do the flying gives you the time to devote your attention to other aspects of flying, such as looking outside in a particular sector for some time, for studying weather trends at AWOS on your route of flight, for watching engine gauges to follow some development. I don't mean to imply that you can/should spend more head down time - but you can direct your attention more specifically if you aren't also flying.

Maybe your question should be what you can best do with your time while the plane is on A/P. I think being on A/P should give you the opportunity to put your freed up resources to work to expand your situational awareness.

 

[Captain]

Give it time. At first, with anything new, you are looking through straws. What I mean is your field of view is small and it's effort to search for and find what you need at any particular time.

With time those straws open up and you get a much more wholistic view of the cockpit. You become able to know exactly where to look to find what you need. That's when the time saving aspect comes in and you find you're able to spend more, not less, time looking outside.

 

[Captain]

btw, what's with the thread title? I guess I'm not seeing the connection...

 

[Sac Arrow]

btw, what's with the thread title? I guess I'm not seeing the connection...

Any segway with Pink Floyd works for me.

 

[GeorgeC]

Thanks for the responses.

Captain, I was thinking steam is to meat as glass/ap is to pudding; maybe the analogy is wrong to begin with.

 

[Banjo33]

I think to your "which to fly...glass or steam gauge" question, my recommendation is to fly whichever is cheaper and allows you to fly more! Your comfort level with glass will increase with experience, but I don't believe it buys you as much if you're flying strictly VFR with it. I think flight experience in general gets you the most bang for the buck at your stage, so whichever allows you to develop experience the fastest is where you should concentrate your dollars.

 

[Captain]

Meh, I'm over it.

 

[Dr. O]

Transition to "reading" a digital number after a lifetime of simply catching the angle of a needle in your peripheral vision will take some time...
However, those new pilots who did their training from day one on a glass panel would find your steam gauges to be impossible...

The interesting fly in the ointment are the recent findings that glass cockpit GA airplanes (the stuff we fly) have a rising fatal crash rate compared to the same airframe equipped with steam gauges... Seems watching the video game is making some pilots fly into cumulus granitus without seeing it...

 

[Dr. O]

Jim, I don't have autosteer on my old tractors - 1086 and 4640... And looking back at the planter is basically impossible... By the time I twist around and back I will be off line and halfway into the next row... After the corn emerged you could see every little twitch of the wheel, and a couple of real sashays...
I am fixated on holding the row within 6 inches, and my eyes are flicking to the 20 20 Seed Sense monitor to see if there is Trouble in River City (the planter) and flicking to the flow meters for the pop up and starter fertilizer pumps and flicking to the GPS speed and adjusting flow rates and jiggling the throttle constantly... Maybe once on a pass across a half mile field I can spare a glance at the rear camera to see if anything fell off back there, but once is all... The work load is way more than my IFR flights...
My last day in the corn was 14 hours and the wife had to come out to the tractor and bring me some tea with honey and a motrin and it was 20 minutes before I could manage to crawl down...

I am considering autosteer but we are already in the hole for a $100K on equipment this past year, so I dunno...

 

[jnmeade]

Denny,
I run autosteer on beans but didn't run it on corn - I plant it just as you described.

 

[Sac Arrow]

So you autosteer tractor farmer guys, does that let you knock back a six pack (or perhaps a twelve pack on a really large field) while the tractor does the work? I'm sensing a win win situation.

 

[jnmeade]

You still have to turn on the ends for most (not all) systems. One young fella who stayed out all night took a nap in his combine, ran into a ditch and destroyed a $30,000 header.
Actually, what it does is let you run 16 hours before you're beat instead of 12 hours.

 

[Sac Arrow]

You still have to turn on the ends for most (not all) systems. One young fella who stayed out all night took a nap in his combine, ran into a ditch and destroyed a $30,000 header.
Actually, what it does is let you run 16 hours before you're beat instead of 12 hours.

So basically, it's a single axis autopilot. Lock on to the heading, it will track. But don't expect the GPSS autosteer.

 

[jnmeade]

So basically, it's a single axis autopilot. Lock on to the heading, it will track. But don't expect the GPSS autosteer.

It will follow curved lines, if that is the track you have input. But it is pretty simple. You can follow a line defined by two points (A-B line) an A line, which is a point and a heading, a defined curve which will repeat itself, an adaptive curve which will parallel the last pass, and you can track a series of circles such as you'd do when you are driving around an irrigation pivot point.
When you have clutch controls, the planter or sprayer will shut off when going through waterways or when turning on the end - you needn't manually switch it off. To do that, you have to drive and define the external boundary and any internal boundaries. The autosteer combined with the planter row clutch controls or the sprayer section shutoffs is what takes so much labor out of the operation. You could get out and walk alongside the tractor, if you wanted (but you'd better be in good shape as you plant at 6 mph and spray at 9 or more).

 

[comanchepilot]

the relative position of a needle is ALWAYS easier for the human brain to register that identifying a number and translating the number to a meaningful measure which is understandable.

I - have become - comfortably numb. . . .

 

[comanchepilot]

It will follow curved lines, if that is the track you have input. But it is pretty simple.

I think it follows a straight line between the point computed 1 second ago and the point I will be in 1 second - it has no ideas about curved line - we see curved line on the display - but it really is a straight line. . . .

 

[jnmeade]

I think it follows a straight line between the point computed 1 second ago and the point I will be in 1 second - it has no ideas about curved line - we see curved line on the display - but it really is a straight line. . . .

You may be right - I'll have to ask about that.

 

[Captain]

I think it follows a straight line between the point computed 1 second ago and the point I will be in 1 second - it has no ideas about curved line - we see curved line on the display - but it really is a straight line. . . .

Nah, it's curved. But in real life it's curved down. It arcs around the Center of the earth. When that downward curving arc gets plastered on a flat map ala computer screen or paper then the lines arcing down around the core of the earth turns into a horizontal arc as the curved line must be stretched in a new dimension in order to be presented on a flat medium.

 

[Dr. O]

Well, I was at an ag expo and the JD salesman was all hot to sell me a new 9xxx tractor pulling a 48 row planter with a nurse wagon behind... All automated of course... Each row unit on the planter would vary the seeding rate and the fertilizer flow rate every few feet based on software commands... There were automated individual row unit shut offs for coming to the end of the rows where there was a point (farmers know what that is)... All the automation was driven by software that merged information from satellite photos of the ground, the past few years production records, and the varying types of soil as you went across the field... Very high tech... They had this one programmed so that it auto lifted the planter at the end and auto steered around to the next pass and continued on... This setup was pushing a million bucks... This was one where you turned the seat 90 degrees and watched the screens.... Lots of fun - but not in my future... To pay for itself such a unit would need to run on 6,000 to 10,000 acres (at $5500 an acre average to own)...

Now, an RTK linked unit (a type of GPS) for ag use with autosteering will run about $10,000 new for all the hardware, plus the monthly fee for the RTK correction data... It will give repeatable positioning with sub inch accuracy... I don't see us going to RTK unless I get a bunch more acreage...

 

[jnmeade]

Nah, it's curved. But in real life it's curved down. It arcs around the Center of the earth. When that downward curving arc gets plastered on a flat map ala computer screen or paper then the lines arcing down around the core of the earth turns into a horizontal arc as the curved line must be stretched in a new dimension in order to be presented on a flat medium.

We're talking about a lateral curve, not a great circle. As in steering around a field with a terrace or something built in the shape of an arc.

 

[Anthony]

When I turn on the AP in my plane, I feel like an "aircraft manager", not a pilot. However, when you are flying legs in excess of three hours to get somewhere that day it is nice to have. I do try to start hand flying it at least 15 minutes prior to landing just to get that tactile feel again that Mari referenced.

 

[jnmeade]

Yes, the rig you describe is far outside my capability. I'm running WAAS but next year may go to Omnistar. RTK is too rich for my blood. With Omnistar, I'll plant corn with no markers.

 

[poadeleted20]

The PiperSport isnt a TAA as it does not have an IFR approved GPS as far as I know.

Perhaps not by the strict definition of the term, but from the description, it sure seems like one to operate like one. The fact is that with an aircraft with TAA-type stuff (GPS, multifunction display, and integrated autopilot), the pilot becomes less an operator and more a systems manager. The necessary techniques are significantly different, and in many ways require a very different mindset. If done right, it can free up the pilot's attention for duties beyond basic control functions such as maintaining attitude and tracking courses. If done wrong, the pilot becomes so absorbed in the system that important functions such as lookout and planning ahead are neglected.

So, to the OP, I'd say work with your instructor to learn both ways (old-school 6-pack and the new TAA style) and use them appropriately to the aircraft you're flying.

 

[Captain]

Perhaps not by the strict definition of the term, but from the description, it sure seems like one to operate like one. The fact is that with an aircraft with TAA-type stuff (GPS, multifunction display, and integrated autopilot), the pilot becomes less an operator and more a systems manager. The necessary techniques are significantly different, and in many ways require a very different mindset. If done right, it can free up the pilot's attention for duties beyond basic control functions such as maintaining attitude and tracking courses. If done wrong, the pilot becomes so absorbed in the system that important functions such as lookout and planning ahead are neglected.

So, to the OP, I'd say work with your instructor to learn both ways (old-school 6-pack and the new TAA style) and use them appropriately to the aircraft you're flying.

I'll second that. Good advise.

 

[ARFlyer]

I got checked out in a glass/AP PiperSport a few weeks ago and thought I'd share my first impressions of a technically advanced aircraft.

I found it slower to look down and read the airspeed and altitude tapes than to just glance at a gauge. Having traffic info was nice, but it also served to draw my eyes inside rather than outside (see also the thread on XM weather being strategic rather than tactical...). Talking car GPSes really irritate me, and having the plane talk to me also surprised and would probably eventually annoy me.

I also felt that turning on the AP reduced situational awareness for me, as it suddenly felt like I was riding in an airplane rather than flying it.

So, for all the technology that was supposed to reduce my workload, I actually ended up feeling a little behind the airplane.

I attribute this mainly to the fact that I was unfamiliar with the aircraft and suspect that I will become more comfortable with more time in type.

The question is, as a low time (80 hrs) pilot, should I do more hand flying with six pack gauges? I fear that the glass/AP will make me complacent. On the other hand, if better tools and information are available to you, it's foolish not to use them.

As with anything, I suspect this is not an either/or question, and that the answer is to fly more of both, but I am curious to hear others' thoughts.

Discuss(tm).

I will say after having 60 hours in an actual TAA aircraft with glass its noticeable when you go back to a six pack. I have found that I can't hold an ILS in strong wind as well as I use to in the six pack aircraft. The TAA we have has a wind correction bug. So all I have to do is keep that bug in the center of the heading bug. Yes I know you can do that with the IFR GPS in the six pack but its easier just to look straight down and follow a line.

But it does lighten your workload and improve your SA a lot. When ATC gives me a new heading or altitude I just dial it into the heading or tape bug. I don't have to write it down or try to remember, I just fly until I get to the bug. So now instead of worrying about ALT and HDG I can look over my approach plate or be setting up the radios/GPSs.

Now in some areas you have to watch yourself. Like relying to much on the auto CDI flip between GPS and VLOC or chasing the tapes for that perfect no movement moment.

It you fly training aircrat a lot you will find that people will screw with the GPS settings. I wish there was a harsh penalty on people for changing the internal GPS settings. I don't care about the data fields I can change that back in a heartbeat. I care about the internal software workings that ARE NOT TO BE CHANGED!

 

[GeorgeC]

I had my second dose of glass/ap today in a g1000 da40. It was much more comfortable than the first time and felt like it reduced my workload rather than giving me blinkenlight overload.

Related: textual metars are nice. I always wondered why AWOS doesn't squirt out a little data burst...

 

[MAKG1]

I did the transition to a TAA a at about 140 hours. Aspen Evolution plus STEC autopilot plus Garmin 430 GPS, in a Piper Archer.

There are some significant plusses -- there really is more precise information available in the glass than there is with gauges, particularly with the 6-second trend indicators. I could see where this would be amazing in instrument conditions.

But in VFR, the temptation to stare at the PFD is very substantial, and it has to be fought. Glass does not affect how the aircraft flies; when the horizon is visible, it's your attitude indicator, as your primary role is to see and avoid traffic and terrain.

One commenter suggested getting more hours in the air with whatever is cheaper. This is sound advice for a low time pilot! I've never heard of glass being cheaper than steam, though I've seen a couple of cases where the difference isn't too large. And if the only aircraft powerful enough for your load or your destination (e.g., high mountains) has glass, your choice may be made for you.

Just be careful about primary vs. secondary information. Mountainsides and obstructions do not always comply with the GPS terrain database! Similarly, not all aircraft show up in a TCAS or ADS-B display, particularly where transponders are not required. Glass will always give you a more detailed picture, but it may not always give you a better picture.

Also, with the autopilot, there is a workload difference between using the heading and altitude hold modes, vs. following a flight plan, particularly if the flight plan has to be changed in flight. Autopilots aren't necessary for short flights, and aren't advisible under some conditions (e.g., turbulence), but they can really help fatigue on a longer flight.