horizontal visibility into an obscuration, and ice

[StevieTimes]

Let's say I'm flying in the winter. I'm in a 172 or something that is not approved for flight into known icing. I'm on an IFR flight plan.

Let's call the visibility 5 sm. When you're up there, you can see a wall of "obscuration". The forecast is for VFR at my departure and destination, and all the way in between.

Still; I have the fear of ice so far in me that I get paranoid that the wall of obscuration is going to start moving towards me, until I'm in it.

Is there any way to tell the difference between "visibility 5 miles out" and "a large mass of fog/haze that you're about to fly into"? Like let's say the visibility was hiding a mass of fog, for example.

Also; how dumb am I going to sound when I've taken off, IFR, and refuse to fly into clouds or fog? I've been anxious about flying in the winter, as you can tell. I only fly when it's very clear out. It seems like even a scattered layer could bring on ice quickly depending on conditions.

What do you Cessna 172 guys do flying IFR in the winter in anything other than clear skies? I guess 182 as well, and anything not approved for FIKI.

 

[Inverted]

Ice is not that big of a deal. The best way to tell what you are flying into, is by really understanding the weather in which you are about to fly into. Do due diligence in your planing. Check freezing levels, and go from there. If you can, fly above or below the freezing level to your destination but keep in mind you will pick up a bit as you transit through if you fly above. The best thing to do is have an "out" if you do encounter ice. Plan for the ability to get out of ice if you encounter it. I have iced up a 172 a few times, it does just fine. Planes can take ice more than people believe. That being said, I am not going to sit in a situation where I am picking up tons of ice in a 172 and not do anything about it.

 

[azure]

You sound exactly like me. I'm absolutely paranoid about ice. That said, I will punch through a thin layer if the CIP is recent enough and shows a small (<25% chance) of at most trace icing at that altitude.

A couple of weeks ago I filed coming back from my favorite pizza spot. I filed for 3000 and got 4. I knew the bases were somewhere around 3500 and sure enough, at 4000 I was in solid IMC. OAT was -7C, but no ice whatever. It was tempting to stay there and get some more experience in actual but my better judgment won out. I told ATC I didn't want to be there and why, and they cleared me down to 3000.

Personally I think the safest thing is never to fly in visible moisture below freezing unless it's above freezing at the MIA and below, and even then to be spring loaded to ask for an urgent change of altitude at the first sign of ice. I still break that rule sometimes, but not wantonly. I don't have a lot of experience yet in winter IFR. I suspect with time I'll become even more conservative.

 

[Ted]

Ice isn't a big deal until you fly into it in a plane not equipped...

Best option if you don't want to hit IMC is to fly VFR. Some controllers will be jerks about it.

 

[flyingron]

Ice doesn't take IMC by the way.

 

[bobmrg]

I think that you would benefit from more research into airframe icing. At the very least, learn to read the icing prediction charts available from ADDS. I takes a whole lot more than "a wall of clouds" to create ice.

Go to www.avwxworkshops.com to see what Scott has to offer for free....then consider signing up as a member. Money well spent.

Bob Gardner

 

[poadeleted20]

Ice is not that big of a deal.

Bogus. Ice is a very big deal in a plane not designed/equipped for it.

The best way to tell what you are flying into, is by really understanding the weather in which you are about to fly into. Do due diligence in your planing. Check freezing levels, and go from there. If you can, fly above or below the freezing level to your destination but keep in mind you will pick up a bit as you transit through if you fly above. The best thing to do is have an "out" if you do encounter ice. Plan for the ability to get out of ice if you encounter it. I have iced up a 172 a few times, it does just fine. Planes can take ice more than people believe. That being said, I am not going to sit in a situation where I am picking up tons of ice in a 172 and not do anything about it.

Clearly written by someone who's been very lucky. I felt much the same 35 or 40 years ago, but eventually the laws of nature caught up with me, and I had one too many bad experiences. Now, I do whatever I can to avoid ice, and if I stumble into it anyway, I get out of it ASAP. I agree with checking and considering all available information, from AIRMETs to freezing levels to CIP/FIP to the Area Forecast to Winds Aloft (especially the temps) etc, so you know where it may be and where to go if you trip over it, but if it looks like you'll be heading into ice, just don't go there -- not even if it looks like "only a little".

 

[StevieTimes]

I think that you would benefit from more research into airframe icing. At the very least, learn to read the icing prediction charts available from ADDS. I takes a whole lot more than "a wall of clouds" to create ice.

I should have specified; it's almost always below freezing here in winter. a wall of clouds in freezing conditions can cause ice, yes? that's my concern.

 

[EdFred]

I should have specified; it's almost always below freezing here in winter. a wall of clouds in freezing conditions can cause ice, yes? that's my concern.

It can, but not always. And when it does, sometimes it's nothing much, and sometimes it's holy %&***&!!!!!!!!!!!

Like everything with aviation - it depends.

 

[flyingmoose]

Ice is not that big of a deal. I have iced up a 172 a few times, it does just fine. Planes can take ice more than people believe..

...I know I paraphased a bit, but that is awful advice!
While you are correct to say that "Most" airplanes can handle quite a bit of ice, you never know where that line is. I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to punch through a light amount to get below or on top in a non-fiki, but to tell the OP, who is obviously asking for advice about something that they are not experienced with: "It's no big deal" is disingenuous at best.

OP.. Flying in areas were the freezing level is mostly ground level can make winter time flying in visible moisture difficult in a non-fiki. Sometimes you can find temp inv to make warmer temps higher up etc... but experience is all I can tell you.

 

[Engine]

It can, but not always. And when it does, sometimes it's nothing much, and sometimes it's holy %&***&!!!!!!!!!!!

Like everything with aviation - it depends.

Definitely depends. Couple of weeks ago I flew KFRG-KMHT VFR. I had rain and snow for more than 50% of the flight in VMC, temperature was below freezing, and I got almost no ice accumulation.

I think it is a good idea to go up with an reputable pilot/instructor who has a significant amount of experience in IMC and icing. I did this and it is invaluable! Best way to learn to deal with icing is to deal with icing in as controlled an environment as you can.

This isn't me calling you a wimp or saying that your judgment/decision making is bad. Rather I think that your decision making is spot on. If you aren't comfortable in certain flight conditions, if you don't have sufficient training and experience and knowledge of it then it is certainly wise to avoid it all together. However as Ron stated and countless other pilots know have, if you plan on flying in your life you will encounter icing at some point and it will be at best a difficult and scary experience. Just look at the youtube videos of pilots freaking out in icing. Icing is inevitable in the real world.

 

[Inverted]

...I know I paraphased a bit, but that is awful advice!

Ummm where is there ANY advice in the sentence you quoted of mine? The advice is in the paragraph below what you quoted and is not awful advice in the least. It is exactly how you should handle flying IFR in a plane that isn't FIKI. I assure you people fly airplanes into the soup every single day that have zero icing equipment. It is the type of soup you fly into that matters. and ALWAYS have an out, thats what makes ice not a big deal. If you have an out 100% of the time, at the first sign of ice, you can get out. Make sense?

 

[Inverted]

Bogus. Ice is a very big deal in a plane not designed/equipped for it.

Clearly written by someone who's been very lucky. I felt much the same 35 or 40 years ago, but eventually the laws of nature caught up with me, and I had one too many bad experiences. Now, I do whatever I can to avoid ice, and if I stumble into it anyway, I get out of it ASAP. I agree with checking and considering all available information, from AIRMETs to freezing levels to CIP/FIP to the Area Forecast to Winds Aloft (especially the temps) etc, so you know where it may be and where to go if you trip over it, but if it looks like you'll be heading into ice, just don't go there -- not even if it looks like "only a little".

I don't consider doing my research, planning for the accidental flight into icing and having a plan along the entire route of flight to immediately get out of it luck. There have been many days that the flight wouldn't work. When I flew freight, I flew into severe icing conditions many times in airplanes that are FIKI equipped and it is not fun, but I have also had enough experience in ice to know that the second you see accumulation on the wing, you will not explode.

 

[flyingmoose]

Ummm where is there ANY advice in the sentence you quoted of mine? The advice is in the paragraph below what you quoted and is not awful advice in the least. It is exactly how you should handle flying IFR in a plane that isn't FIKI. I assure you people fly airplanes into the soup every single day that have zero icing equipment. It is the type of soup you fly into that matters. and ALWAYS have an out, thats what makes ice not a big deal. If you have an out 100% of the time, at the first sign of ice, you can get out. Make sense?

If Op has no experience and wants advice and you say "Its no big deal", that is advice, maybe not in the literal sense, but you know it is. I don't care how you want to label it. If enough people just say to OP that its no big deal, maybe they just decide, "Meh, I got this", and launch. Its irresponsible. Make sense?

 

[Alexb2000]

Let's say I'm flying in the winter. I'm in a 172 or something that is not approved for flight into known icing. I'm on an IFR flight plan.

Let's call the visibility 5 sm. When you're up there, you can see a wall of "obscuration". The forecast is for VFR at my departure and destination, and all the way in between.

Still; I have the fear of ice so far in me that I get paranoid that the wall of obscuration is going to start moving towards me, until I'm in it.

Is there any way to tell the difference between "visibility 5 miles out" and "a large mass of fog/haze that you're about to fly into"? Like let's say the visibility was hiding a mass of fog, for example.

Also; how dumb am I going to sound when I've taken off, IFR, and refuse to fly into clouds or fog? I've been anxious about flying in the winter, as you can tell. I only fly when it's very clear out. It seems like even a scattered layer could bring on ice quickly depending on conditions.

What do you Cessna 172 guys do flying IFR in the winter in anything other than clear skies? I guess 182 as well, and anything not approved for FIKI.

Fair warning, these ice threads really get people going.

I fly IFR at or below freezing with a non-FIKI aircraft all the time. Sometimes the haze, fog, virga, etc. can really raise some questions. My first concern is to always be on a flight plan if those conditions exist. I don't want to lose visibility VFR. I am also not shy about getting what I want out of the system. If I am concerned about ice I'll tell ATC I want X to stay VFR for icing. If they won't let me do what I want, then I might negotiate, or turn around right then. If you continue then mark when you entered it, what the temps where, altitude, terrain, etc. That way in a split second if you start collecting ice you can TELL ATC what you need to do to get out of it. Any hesitation on their part and I'll use the E word and do it anyway. I hear people on the radio all the time get into icing, tell ATC they're in icing, and then have no clue what they want to do. ATC then guesses and they usually go along, bad SOP IMO.

I just left on an IFR departure with some dark clouds dead ahead and temps near freezing. I told ATC I needed a deviation, they said, "unable". I said, "I'll take a vector any other direction, or return, unable to continue current heading for possible icing (I was VFR refusing to go into IFR)". They worked me around it. The newer guy might have been shy and flown into it before saying anything, don't be that person.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't consider doing my research, planning for the accidental flight into icing and having a plan along the entire route of flight to immediately get out of it luck. There have been many days that the flight wouldn't work. When I flew freight, I flew into severe icing conditions many times in airplanes that are FIKI equipped and it is not fun, but I have also had enough experience in ice to know that the second you see accumulation on the wing, you will not explode.

Flying into severe icing even with a FIKI airplane is still both illegal and foolish, since the definition of severe icing is when the accretion rate is beyond the ability of de-icing systems to shed it.

Your rather cavalier attitude towards icing as expressed in the first sentence of your first post is the sort of thing that leads others to make bad decisions. Yes, you can obtain all available information before flight and make informed decisions as to whether that flight is a good idea, and all the options available on that flight. But when you say, "Ice is not that big of a deal," you trivialize an issue which has killed, and continues to kill, a lot of people -- even in FIKI airplanes.