Hood time

[muddy00]

So what's the best way to build the required hood time ? Anyone have suggestions to make it a little more fun and feel
Like your getting your money's worth out of the plane ?

Edited.
I'm working with a CFII just looking for creative ideas to gain experience and make it a little more fun
I've seen some schools take some long x/c to build hours or break up the routine to different places.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Find a friend who's got his/her IFR and do the hood time with him/her.

I have more hood time with my friend than my CFI, and it's been a lot of fun for both of us. It's also cheaper than the instructor, because he pays me in exchange for the ability to log the time.

 

[jordane93]

If you decide to go with an instrument pilot just make sure not to develop any bad habits.

 

[MAKG1]

Hood time for what?

The instrument rating? No way you can be at PTS in 15 hours of training. That means you need your instructor until you are at PTS (at least), on all tasks. Given that some 3-4 of those hours are going to be on your cross country, you're assuming you're going to be Super Pilot.

Commercial hood time is "training" and requires an instructor.

ATP time might work, but it's kinda hard to believe one can get 1500 hours flying professionally without 35 beyond the instrument rating in IMC.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I was flying with a safety pilot before I hit 15 hours with my instructor.

I should dig up my logbook and see if I'm dreaming or not.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I was definitely dreaming. 24 hours with my instructor prior to using a safety pilot. I don't count the mandatory 3 hours for the private ticket because that was a very long time ago.

And, I just found a logbook error. It only screwed up the last 3 pages. Sometimes I should just shut up.

 

[muddy00]

Hood time for what?

The instrument rating? No way you can be at PTS in 15 hours of training. That means you need your instructor until you are at PTS (at least), on all tasks. Given that some 3-4 of those hours are going to be on your cross country, you're assuming you're going to be Super Pilot.

Commercial hood time is "training" and requires an instructor.

ATP time might work, but it's kinda hard to believe one can get 1500 hours flying professionally without 35 beyond the instrument rating in IMC.

No not thinking 15 hours will be anywhere near enough, just trying to build some time so if / when I'm ready all the hours are there.

 

[MAKG1]

No not thinking 15 hours will be anywhere near enough, just trying to build some time so if / when I'm ready all the hours are there.

They will be, or at least you'll be close. Instrument training is a lot harder than it looks.

If you happen to be a few hours short, you could always use practice on partial panel and/or precision approaches. Or perhaps some advanced (not PTS) work such as engine outs under the hood.

 

[RussR]

No not thinking 15 hours will be anywhere near enough, just trying to build some time so if / when I'm ready all the hours are there.

If I'm reading too much into this, please let me know, but it sounds like you're asking about flying with a safety pilot to build hood time, so that when you start working with a CFII at some point in the undetermined future, you'll be ready.

Starting to teach yourself to fly on instruments before working an instructor on it is not a particularly good idea.

You will likely end up teaching yourself (and ingraining into your mind) all kinds of bad habits, which then have to un-taught by the instructor. Most instructors have seen this happen, and un-teaching you the bad habits and replacing them with the right habits ends up taking a LOT more time and money than if you waited until you were ready to actually start training.

If, once you start training, you learn quickly and are ready for the checkride with less than 40 hours, that's where you can decide to add on a little bit of practice with a safety pilot - or use that time to keep brushing up with a CFII.

 

[muddy00]

I'm Already flying with an instructor , question was just really anyone have anything they did to burn extra time if needed . I've seen some of the schools schedule long x/c to different places to build time

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm Already flying with an instructor , question was just really anyone have anything they did to burn extra time if needed . I've seen some of the schools schedule long x/c to different places to build time

My thoughts on the subject are that flying with a safety pilot during instrument training is the rough equivalent of solo for a student pilot. The real goal is to practice and master what has been learned, not simply to write some numbers to meet hour requirements.

I think the best student solo learning comes from coordinating solo practice sessions with the CFI. I think the same for instrument students.

"I'm going to go up with my friend as a safety pilot. What do you think I should focus on?" is a perfect question to ask a CFI. depending on your current skill and knowledge level, I can envision some great - and fun - answers.

 

[Bonchie]

If I'm reading too much into this, please let me know, but it sounds like you're asking about flying with a safety pilot to build hood time, so that when you start working with a CFII at some point in the undetermined future, you'll be ready.

Starting to teach yourself to fly on instruments before working an instructor on it is not a particularly good idea.

You will likely end up teaching yourself (and ingraining into your mind) all kinds of bad habits, which then have to un-taught by the instructor. Most instructors have seen this happen, and un-teaching you the bad habits and replacing them with the right habits ends up taking a LOT more time and money than if you waited until you were ready to actually start training.

If, once you start training, you learn quickly and are ready for the checkride with less than 40 hours, that's where you can decide to add on a little bit of practice with a safety pilot - or use that time to keep brushing up with a CFII.

In some ways, yeah. You shouldn't be flying approaches or holds before starting training. But there are things that are healthy to start working on.

Even before you get your IFR, it only helps to start working on holding altitudes and headings within PTS and building your cross-check. Anything to do with becoming a more stabilized pilot is good for VFR pilots to practice.

 

[Bonchie]

I'm Already flying with an instructor , question was just really anyone have anything they did to burn extra time if needed . I've seen some of the schools schedule long x/c to different places to build time

The IFR ride is fairly simple standards wise. There's less to do then the private and a lot of the standards will be met just by you doing the 3 approaches and a hold.

Go fly approaches. Do some different holds that aren't as common (like using your GPS as a DME and flying a hold off a LOC). Throw some curveballs at yourself.

Basically, it's probably not the straight ahead approaches that will likely trip you up on the IFR ride. It'll be the things at the margins. Practice those.

 

[MAKG1]

One thing people (including me) overlook is that there aren't very many DME arcs around, and if the examiner wants you to demonstrate one, he'll more than likely make it up. Your GPS won't know how to do that. My advice? Become proficient in OBS mode. That helps with holds as well.

 

[frfly172]

I usually take another IFR rated pilot,that way we get to experiment with the GPS,and autopilot. Can be great fun ,for both pilots.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

I'm Already flying with an instructor , question was just really anyone have anything they did to burn extra time if needed . I've seen some of the schools schedule long x/c to different places to build time

What I did was go up with my instructor, learn something new, then later that night I went up with my non-instrument rated safety pilot and did the same thing I learned that day. Yeah you can do long cross-countries, but with what you are learning for the instrument checkride, droning in cruise with the hood on isn't really giving you a lot of good experience. You IR checkride isn't gonna have a lot of "straight & level cruise" time. It's gonna be unusual attitudes, holding, approaches, etc.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I agree that once you're proficient with control via instrument reference, straight and level long XC isn't teaching you much. But there could be a situation like I had... I only needed the one long dual XC but still was 20 hours short of the required XC time for the instrument rating. Sure I could have done it VFR but I also needed more hood time to get the 40... So me and the safety pilot did several medium length XC flights and I stayed foggled for it all... Even the cruise portions. The autopilot did get used some

 

[MAKG1]

I agree that once you're proficient with control via instrument reference, straight and level long XC isn't teaching you much. But there could be a situation like I had... I only needed the one long dual XC but still was 20 hours short of the required XC time for the instrument rating. Sure I could have done it VFR but I also needed more hood time to get the 40... So me and the safety pilot did several medium length XC flights and I stayed foggled for it all... Even the cruise portions. The autopilot did get used some

I find it hard to believe that you couldn't find a more useful use for those 20 hours.

Like, maybe work your way 50 miles away while shooting approaches (and going missed) along the way. You've got 20 hours to kill, so doubling back doesn't hurt.

You can also do full stops and practice departure procedures. It's cross-country as long as ONE landing is 50 miles from where you started. You can have as many landings as you want.

But, honestly, better planning would have made this go away. Like, using a Part 141 school. With 20 hours to lose, the cost savings would have been huge.

In aviation, it's worth it to think about optimizing flight time. It's expensive, and we really are trying to learn skills with only tiny amounts of practice. Enroute, straight and level, is about as easy as it gets, and there isn't much benefit to practicing easy stuff once you can do it reliably.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Quite a few of those XC flights involved landing at more than just the destination airport and we shot approaches and(usually) missed to the published hold at all of them.

it wasn't all just straight and level to burn off the XC hours needed.

I agree about saving dollars but I'm not really trying to get the rating as cheaply as possible. I've already got 50 hours' hood time and that's mainly due to needing the extra XC. My airplane has been down for a month and will be for a while while the engine gets a major(ugh, another story). Then I'll need 10 hours to get the rust off.

I've been shooting approaches on the sim a few times a week and renting every week or two to keep "somewhat" up to speed.

I know all about the costs. Should have just gone fishing or something

 

[EdFred]

at $35/hr it's only another $875 to fly with the CFII for the additional 25 hours - and you'll be a much better IR pilot for it.

 

[MAKG1]

at $35/hr it's only another $875 to fly with the CFII for the additional 25 hours - and you'll be a much better IR pilot for it.

It might have been thousands cheaper to go the 141 route.

There is no cross-country requirement for Part 141 instrument ratings.

For the case like me where cross country was way above minimum before I started, benefit from 141 was doubtful. For the case where there isn't much cross country, it's a lot bigger.

Though I thoroughly agree a CFII would have made the 20 hours more useful if you really did have to do the 20 hours. There are some important things not on the PTS that you could train, like engine-out under the hood. You're cruising along at 6000 in the clouds when your engine quits. What do you do now? You're not going to fly an approach (at least, not using the altitudes -- the lateral guidance can be very useful, at least for "NoPT" approaches). Where is the terrain? Where is the VMC? My instructor and I went through this a couple of times, 'cause we both got spooked by this accident (though the real lesson there is not to fly over hostile terrain at night over an undercast with no options).

In all this, though, I think the point of the cross country requirement has been missed. It's to become a good VFR pilot before you launch into IFR, and to get really good at controlling the airplane.

I did quite a bit of VFR flying during instrument training (I trained as a CAP search pilot at the same time), but that doesn't appear to be that common. Most people report getting really bad at landings during instrument training, 'cause you really don't do very many.

 

[bobmrg]

I was definitely dreaming. 24 hours with my instructor prior to using a safety pilot. I don't count the mandatory 3 hours for the private ticket because that was a very long time ago.

And, I just found a logbook error. It only screwed up the last 3 pages. Sometimes I should just shut up.

Those hours were not instrument training, they were flight training (61.109(a)(3)) and should not be counted anyway.

Bob Gardner

 

[dell30rb]

Those hours were not instrument training, they were flight training (61.109(a)(3)) and should not be counted anyway.

Bob Gardner

Sure about that? Seems like the 3 hours of hood time for the private qualifies as training in the area of flight by reference to instruments, which counts toward the instrument rating.

Its been a few years but i'm pretty sure we counted that toward my 40 hours when I went for my instrument checkride.

(c) Flight proficiency. A person who applies for an instrument rating must receive and log training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device, in accordance with paragraph (g) of this section, that includes the following areas of operation:
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Air traffic control clearances and procedures;
(4) Flight by reference to instruments;
(5) Navigation systems;
(6) Instrument approach procedures;
(7) Emergency operations; and
(8) Postflight procedures.
(d) Aeronautical experience for the instrument-airplane rating. A person who applies for an instrument-airplane rating must have logged:
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which 10 hours must have been in an airplane; and

(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed in paragraph (c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrument time includes:

The requirement for the private reads..

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

 

[Bonchie]

Those hours were not instrument training, they were flight training (61.109(a)(3)) and should not be counted anyway.

Bob Gardner

They weren't training, but they were simulated instrument time and do count toward the 40 hour requirement just like safety pilot time does.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

They weren't training, but they were simulated instrument time and do count toward the 40 hour requirement just like safety pilot time does.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

How is that not training?

Anyways, as Ren said, those 3 hours of instrument training during the private can count towards to 40 required for the IR.

 

[Bonchie]

How is that not training?

Anyways, as Ren said, those 3 hours of instrument training during the private can count towards to 40 required for the IR.

We are saying the same thing.

If a regular CFI gives the hood time instruction during the PPL, then it's not training toward the IFR 15 hour instruction minimum. But that time still counts toward the 40 hours like safety pilot time would.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

We are saying the same thing.

If a regular CFI gives the hood time instruction during the PPL, then it's not training toward the IFR 15 hour instruction minimum. But that time still counts toward the 40 hours like safety pilot time would.

Ah I'm pickin up what you're puttin down

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sure about that? Seems like the 3 hours of hood time for the private qualifies as training in the area of flight by reference to instruments, which counts toward the instrument rating.

Its been a few years but i'm pretty sure we counted that toward my 40 hours when I went for my instrument checkride.



The requirement for the private reads..

It does count toward the 40 hours of instrument time but not toward the 15 hours instrument training.

Two separate requirements. Two separate rules.

 

[petrolero]

I never found a need to "build hood time". I was busy learning new things and practicing old things right up to the checkride. There was no slack time where I was just punching holes to build hood hours. I did every single hood minute with my CFII. I passed the check ride at 40.0 hours.

 

[Bonchie]

I never found a need to "build hood time". I was busy learning new things and practicing old things right up to the checkride. There was no slack time where I was just punching holes to build hood hours. I did every single hood minute with my CFII. I passed the check ride at 40.0 hours.

Yeah, I'm a fast learner (and was a bit of a natural flyer starting off, not to sound egotistical). Got my PPL in 43 hours. Got my IFR in 40.5 hours.

But with the IFR, I was having to practice and drill things into myself even on my last practice flight before the checkride.

Now, I did count the 4 hours or so of hood time I got in the PPL training toward my 40 hours, but still.