Hood requirements for Private Pilots license...

[dmspilot]

Anyone else somewhat lost trying to follow this thread??
I’ll reread tomorrow after good sleep and clear booze head.

The discussion that was started was whether student pilots should practice using a VOR under the hood, but turned into one where people argued whether or not one should try to use a VOR during a real IMC encounter.

 

[CC268]

Oh, it seems pretty straightforward to me.
There's a camp that says we should train people to Do More Things, Just In Case It's Needed.
And then there's a camp that says we shouldn't, because we should train people to Make Sure It's Never Needed instead.

Tale as old as time, no? (see: spin recovery!)

LOL no kidding. Amazing how prideful people are. Nobody likes to be wrong and everyone thinks they know best.

 

[Witmo]

Sure, let's restrict everybody to the same level as the lowest achiever . . . . .

You're missing the point. Several said a private pilot only needs to be able to demonstrate the ability to do a 180 under the hood to simulate inadvertently entering a cloud and nothing beyond. My point is a 180 will not suffice if you're flying at night and lose reference to the horizon due to darkness and not clouds. A private pilot that is allowed to fly at night without an instrument rating should be required to demonstrate the ability to fly under all conditions he might encounter outside a cloud to include loss of outside references due to darkness. Ifl that requires 3 hours or 10 hours for the individual, than so be it. Just logging 3 hours per the reg under the hood and not being able to do basic airmanship mauevers while hooded isn't eough.

 

[MacFlier]

My CFI made me do climbs, turns, descents, VOR and GPS navigation under the hood. We even threw in power on/off stalls (just for fun).
It was eye opening for me to be flying fairly ok under the hood then he'd ask "fly direct XYZ, cross ABC at 3000 then turn 120"... just me trying to get that into VOR/GPS was a big effort to fly the plane, scan instruments and look at the GPS and NAV buttons...

 

[PaulS]

Oh, it seems pretty straightforward to me.
There's a camp that says we should train people to Do More Things, Just In Case It's Needed.
And then there's a camp that says we shouldn't, because we should train people to Make Sure It's Never Needed instead.

Tale as old as time, no? (see: spin recovery!)

It's funny how different people can see different things. I see it as train for the worst case, but also train to never get yourself to that point. For me confidence in the PP pre cert hood time as a means to get yourself out of trouble is misguided, especially considering how perishable that skill is and case after case of people augering in after VMC into IMC. It's good that the PP hood time is done as it will save some from stupid pilot tricks and the few genuine unforeseeable VMC into IMC, but unfortunately it won't save all. I don' t see anyone saying we shouldn't train hood time for Private pilots, although if I've missed someone I'm sure it will be pointed out.

 

[BillTIZ]

That 1st instructor wouldn't have liked the guy who taught me for my private. He had me doing more than VOR navigation under the hood. He handed the plane to me straight and level but inverted under the hood. He said your airplane with the plane in a spin under the hood too.

I remember doing PAR Approach and FSS directed DF Steer approach under the hood prior to my Private Airplane checkride. (1974)

 

[Hank S]

You're missing the point. Several said a private pilot only needs to be able to demonstrate the ability to do a 180 under the hood to simulate inadvertently entering a cloud and nothing beyond. My point is a 180 will not suffice if you're flying at night and lose reference to the horizon due to darkness and not clouds. A private pilot that is allowed to fly at night without an instrument rating should be required to demonstrate the ability to fly under all conditions he might encounter outside a cloud to include loss of outside references due to darkness. Ifl that requires 3 hours or 10 hours for the individual, than so be it. Just logging 3 hours per the reg under the hood and not being able to do basic airmanship mauevers while hooded isn't eough.

It's a perishable skill. Train hard, get proficient, pass your checkride and no more hood time with an instructor leads to the inability to perform to the standards you were tested to. That's why IR pilots fly regularly under the hood when we don't get sufficient time in actual IMC. VFR pilots don't do that, it would be silly to require them to be instrument proficient without being instrument qualified, and then they aren't VFR pilots anymore . . .

 

[schmookeeg]

Tracking a VOR is a perishable skill?? I agree that precision falls over time with IFR work, but the concepts are still understood once trained, and nobody expects your U-turn-and-track-away to be perfectly executed.

I landed my first plane 'off field' with my private license, at about the 200 hour mark. In the adrenaline-fuelled moment, my brain was serving me the most crisp and precise techniques from memory that I could use to save my ass, some were taught 2 or 3 years in the past. It also did me the service of slowing time perception down so that I could act. Neither I nor my passengers received a scratch, despite a totalled plane.

Self-preservation in the moment is something you need to experience to understand. A brain will save itself, but it can't do that if it's never been taught a concept. And as a CFI, I teach skills, not exam points. I hope the pilots never get into the situation, but I'm not going to prefer damning their poor choices over teaching them the tools they need to extricate themselves.

$0.02

 

[PaulS]

Yeah, once again, I don't see anyone saying don't train under the hood, and that's the part that's perishable.....

 

[schmookeeg]

Other than the original post and thread starter you mean?

 

[PaulS]

Other than the original post and thread starter you mean?

The OP said don't train PP to fly under the hood???? Where?

 

[Hank S]

Tracking a VOR is a perishable skill?? I agree that precision falls over time with IFR work, but the concepts are still understood once trained, and nobody expects your U-turn-and-track-away to be perfectly executed.

As a CFI, you should know that the perishable skill is controlling the airplane by reference to instruments only and ignoring your body and vestibular system. I have fought it on a few occasions as an IR pilot in IMC, but fortunately not for very long.

 

[schmookeeg]

Heh.

To make this miserable and short instead of prolonged and tit-for-tat... I should just recap my thoughts on the matter:

1. I think "only teaching a private pilot to do a u-turn in the hood" (which, sure, I equated with "don't teach under the hood") is inadequate. Sort of in the "minimum pieces of flair" vein. I liked the remark about what would you even do for 3 hours if that's your teaching philosophy.

2. I think a person who has had good hood training, even 10+ years ago, will recognize when they "dun goofed", and will be able to fight off the assorted illusions and whatnot.. hopefully before they rip the wings off in the graveyard spiral. I think the person who had more than U-turn training, even 10 years ago, will fare better, and as such, it's shortchanging a private pilot trainee to not do a bunch of IFR attitude work in the hood, even for VFR. I think it will save their bacon when their judgement fails them, or they take one risk too many.

I'm just one of thousands of opinions. I just don't know what the valid defense of "only teach U turns" would be.

$0.02

 

[Half Fast]

Heh.
1. I think "only teaching a private pilot to do a u-turn in the hood" (which, sure, I equated with "don't teach under the hood") is inadequate. Sort of in the "minimum pieces of flair" vein. I liked the remark about what would you even do for 3 hours if that's your teaching philosophy.

It's worse than "inadequate," it's not even compliant with the FAR. From 14 CFR 61.109,

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;
​

I certainly hope that teaching a U-turn only is not what any CFI is doing.

 

[LoLPilot]

My CFI had me do VOR navigation during my hood time but made me to all of my PPL cross countries using pilotage and dead reckoning.

 

[Hank S]

My CFI had me do VOR navigation during my hood time but made me to all of my PPL cross countries using pilotage and dead reckoning.

Me, too, except I also did VOR navigation when I could see, and my Long XC had one leg where I tracked a VOR. I thought that last one was an official requirement.

 

[LoLPilot]

Me, too, except I also did VOR navigation when I could see, and my Long XC had one leg where I tracked a VOR. I thought that last one was an official requirement.

Mine had me track VOR's but only as a backup. On my solo CC's he actually told me he didn't want me running GPS at all and to only run VOR as a backup in case I got lost. He was "party like it's 1950" in terms of PPL navigation and I honestly thank him for that. Even if I know I'm running GPS I still like to draw up a paper flight plan as a mental exercise.

 

[Hank S]

Mine had me track VOR's but only as a backup. On my solo CC's he actually told me he didn't want me running GPS at all and to only run VOR as a backup in case I got lost. He was "party like it's 1950" in terms of PPL navigation and I honestly thank him for that. Even if I know I'm running GPS I still like to draw up a paper flight plan as a mental exercise.

I did most of my training in a 160hp Skyhawk with no GPS. There was one with a 430, but it had 150hp and I didn't like how it handled.

Now I fly with a WAAS GPS, but still highlight lines across sectionals to follow along. But I do less VOR tuning than before, mostly using pilotage and the sectional as back up. Keeps the trip interesting and the skills sharp.