Home IFR training sims?

Jim Rosenow said:
Anybody else notice G-Man hasn't been back since the original post?....probably walked off shaking his head by now... LOL

Jim
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Lol...there are a select few on this forum who tend to do that.
 
Labbadaba. Do ou have a YouTube video of your setup and philosophy of its use? I too am considering a home sim for IFR procedures.
 
labbadabba said:
Many here advocate chair flying to reinforce procedures and flow; what many simmers have is just that but instead of using the imagination there's a tangible element. If I were just looking for a toy, I'd go old school and fire up X-Wing and go blow up a TIE Fighter.

Thanks to my sim I've been able reinforce real-world skills that I've taken from my training. I'm a 100 hour pilot in real life and I have a TON to learn yet as I progress. The sim in conjunction with services such as PilotEdge has accelerated my learning and have presented me with situations I would never have been able come up with while working my 40 hours under the hood.
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I dig it, it is a "fancy" chair flying apparatus. You get your head in the game, picture where you are in space relative to a navaid or whatever. You picture how the approach is going to go, you read the plate, brief the approach and the missed, fly it, and maybe even go partial panel where the attitude indicator sloooowwly tumbes at some random time during the flight.

I didn't hear you say this directly, but the talking part is great practice too.
 
WHich is sim that has the live ATC in it? Is that worth it? Looking for anything to help my IFR training along when the weather is crap in the NE. I can fly the plane by instruments, do approaches already. My shortfall is communication with ATC and reading the IFR charts.
 
UngaWunga said:
WHich is sim that has the live ATC in it? Is that worth it? Looking for anything to help my IFR training along when the weather is crap in the NE. I can fly the plane by instruments, do approaches already. My shortfall is communication with ATC and reading the IFR charts.
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PilotEdge.net there's also VatSIM which is free but coverage is spotty and you don't always get solid controllers. PilotEdge has quite a few IFR tutorials on its YouTube channel as well. It's $19 (edit I originally said $30) a month for the service and it's limited to SoCal but I've found it very effective since you have all sorts of crazy IFR scenarios involving multiple Bravos/Charlies, low CIGS when the marine layer is in play, and lots of big rocks to avoid.
 
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LmannyR said:
Labbadaba. Do ou have a YouTube video of your setup and philosophy of its use? I too am considering a home sim for IFR procedures.
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I don't but, I'll say the two items I splurged on was the yoke (Precision Flight Systems) and the GarSIM GNS 530. Everything I picked up for the sim was off eBay so it took time to find the right deals. My panel items are GoFlight modules and my TPM is Saitek.

At the time I build it, I went with FSX over X-Plane because FSX had a greater ability to customize hardware. But I think X-Plane has caught up. There's a fair amount of frustration getting the thing set up I'll admit but once up and running it works great.

Oh, also DesktopAviator.com has some really solid budget panels if you're willing to do some key mapping.
 
labbadabba said:
PilotEdge.net there's also VatSIM which is free but coverage is spotty and you don't always get solid controllers. PilotEdge has quite a few IFR tutorials on its YouTube channel as well. It's approx $30 a month for the service and it's limited to SoCal but I've found it very effective since you have all sorts of crazy IFR scenarios involving multiple Bravos/Charlies, low CIGS when the marine layer is in play, and lots of big rocks to avoid.
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Actually starting on Dec 27th is expands to cover a lot of the Western US if you pay a few more bucks. If you stay on the normal plan you lose SFO as a destination at that time as well. SFO will only be covered for those that upgrade to the new plan.

The new plan add Seattle, Denver, and a few other majors, as well as some minor airports. They are also adding extra smaller airports on a 2 week rotation basis.

See the announcement for more detials:
http://www.pilotedge.net/pages/western-expansion
 
Blindrage said:
Actually starting on Dec 27th is expands to cover a lot of the Western US if you pay a few more bucks. If you stay on the normal plan you lose SFO as a destination at that time as well. SFO will only be covered for those that upgrade to the new plan.

The new plan add Seattle, Denver, and a few other majors, as well as some minor airports. They are also adding extra smaller airports on a 2 week rotation basis.

See the announcement for more detials:
http://www.pilotedge.net/pages/western-expansion
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Cool beans. I fly bug smashers so I'll stay local but I'm sure the big iron guys will appreciate that. Though the Hidden Gem feature seems like a fun opportunity to do some mountain flying at MEA. Might be fun to shoot an approach or two into Tahoe...
 
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Would love a better pic of your sim, Labbaddabba. Old eyes need larger. Thanks!

Jim
 
Unless you're wanting to learn the button-ology for a specific avionics suite, you'll quickly realize that IFR is about situational awareness and proficiency, and as such, the avionics in the sim just don't matter a whole lot. I use a Baron that is more or less /A in X-Plane even though I fly a /G Lancair 360 in real world...it just doesn't matter. As long as there is realistic ATC and a flight model that isn't distractingly bad, you should be good to go for a platform to help you stay proficient in the long term. Course interception and tracking work pretty much the same regardless of whether it's GPS-based course or a VOR-based course.

It's a mistake, IMO, to set up a sim for your initial IFR training, then never use it again once you get your ticket. Many, many IFR pilots become rust buckets after getting their rating because they don't fly in the system enough to stay proficient, and lord knows shooting 6 every 6 on a sunny day with your safety pilot in the right seat without a clearance is not a great way to stay proficient (even though they remain legally current).

I don't bat an eyelid about launching into IMC, and hand flying for hundreds of miles in the soup, even if I haven't done it for 4-5 months in the airplane, simply because I'm doing it in the sim pretty frequently.

One last piece of advice, don't be afraid to practice NORMAL OPS in your sim. People seem obsessed with emergencies and partial panel. There's tremendous utility in shooting approaches to something OTHER than minimums. Try some visuals, try some circling. Try departing VFR, then call for a pop-up. The more you can do in the sim to mirror your real world ops, the more comfortable you'll be with doing those ops.

Also, don't underestimate the workload and utility of having real ATC in the sim (I'm not talking about canned recordings, or synthetic systems that are a categorical waste of time). Your two choices for flyingin the US are basically VATSIM and PilotEdge. Being the founder of the latter, I'm biased towards it. Research both and make your own call. If you are looking to practice the fundamentals of a scan and basic attitude instrument flying, or nailing the final approach segment, you don't need ATC, but there is a lot more utility to be had in the sim than those basic fundamentals. You really can simulate an end to end IFR flight with all the nuances that come with it.

My personal rig is XP10 using one display for the sim with another screen for charts. Flight controls are CH pedals and a Thrustmaster T-16000M stick. Tiny footprint on the desktop, highly recommended. A full yoke is a giant PITA unless it's a dedicated rig. I use my machine for work and simulation, so I don't want to be clamping a yoke to the desk every time I fly. If I am feeling ambitious, I'll hoof it upstairs, grab the iPad and fire up ForeFlight which X-Plane can talk with to send GPS and AHRS data.
 
labbadabba said:
Which is exactly what I have. You referenced that the only good avionics simulators are the ones written by Garmin specifically for their products. That's precisely what's driving my GNS530. FSX is only the physics engine for my set-up. Other than that, from my radios to my instruments, nothing is stock.

What makes you think I didn't have requirements? What I've put together was purpose built from the beginning to be a training aide. I suppose I could produce some User Stories if that would address some of your concerns. Many here advocate chair flying to reinforce procedures and flow; what many simmers have is just that but instead of using the imagination there's a tangible element. If I were just looking for a toy, I'd go old school and fire up X-Wing and go blow up a TIE Fighter.

Thanks to my sim I've been able reinforce real-world skills that I've taken from my training. I'm a 100 hour pilot in real life and I have a TON to learn yet as I progress. The sim in conjunction with services such as PilotEdge has accelerated my learning and have presented me with situations I would never have been able come up with while working my 40 hours under the hood. It's these scenarios and the amount of hours of real-world flying I would need under my belt to experience them is what has saved me money. I have no delusions that what I'm doing is 'real' flying but that doesn't mean what I do on my sim doesn't positively affect what I do when I AM flying for real.

For example, when transitioning to IR training. I needed zero instruction (other than one-off pointers) on how to function on an IFR flight plan, dealing with ATC, copying clearances, en route charts, IAPs, DPs, programming and using a GNS 430/530 and other Navaids, etc. As a result, my real flying was devoted to precision flying, partial panel, scan techniques, maintaining glide slope during a configuration change, checklist discipline because I wasn't worried about the procedure of flying IFR.

I respect what you're trying to say but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a 'game' that if used in a particular way can be an extremely effective training tool.
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I hate to burst your bubble, but what you spent your training time on is what everyone else does, too. Clearances are easy, and so is ATC if you use flight following a lot. And programming a 430 can be learned for free.

WithOUT PilotEdge, I still have exactly one clearance I just blew the readback on. It's not that hard. The worst I have is the occasional "say again waypoint after Woodside VOR," or "spell CEDES," but that's about unfamiliar airspace, not clearances themselves.

Go ahead and play. It's obvious that's what you're doing, and it's fine. But the claims about training bonanzas are overblown. You don't HAVE to have a training benefit to make a sim.
 
MAKG1 said:
I hate to burst your bubble ... Go ahead and play. It's obvious that's what you're doing, and it's fine. But the claims about training bonanzas are overblown. You don't HAVE to have a training benefit to make a sim.
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Not exactly sure why this is difficult for you to understand. Why does it seem like an impossibility to you that someone might be able to use a sim to sharpen and maintain IFR flying skills? I never said that you must HAVE a training benefit to make a sim, I said that you can have a purpose-built sim for training. The OP had the same requirement and solicited the opinion of the forum.

There are plenty of simmers out there who just fly for the sake of flying. They get to fly big jets and P-51s and do barrel rolls in a 172. Awesome. But that's not me. And the same goes for others like me. @coma24 summed up nicely the benefit of a service like PilotEdge. I'm not saying you can't learn IFR flying without a sim or without PilotEdge, and I'm certainly not denigrating those who do. But for me, I would have never made the progress that I've made without them. My flying budget is not limitless and I have a young family. The hours I can devote to real-world IFR flying are few, so being able to stay proficient even if it's simply with IFR procedures and scan without the HOBBS running is a Godsend.
 
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Flight simming is fun, I enjoy it a lot, but honestly, it's really not good practice at all. It useful to gauge your ADM skills in certain situations like bad weather but that's about it. I like it so i can play as a WW1 Sopwith dolphin pilot and get into dogfights, neither of which I will ever do in real life.
 
Jim Case said:
Flight simming is fun, I enjoy it a lot, but honestly, it's really not good practice at all. It useful to gauge your ADM skills in certain situations like bad weather but that's about it. I like it so i can play as a WW1 Sopwith dolphin pilot and get into dogfights, neither of which I will ever do in real life.
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Different strokes.
 
Jim Case said:
Flight simming is fun, I enjoy it a lot, but honestly, it's really not good practice at all. It useful to gauge your ADM skills in certain situations like bad weather but that's about it. I like it so i can play as a WW1 Sopwith dolphin pilot and get into dogfights, neither of which I will ever do in real life.
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Hmm...if you can practice radio work, ADM, and basic attitude instrument flying...remind me again why it's not good practice at all?

My experience is vastly different. My mindset when operating the sim on an end to end IFR trip is basically identical to that of flying a real airplane. The workload of single pilot IFR is replicated quite well. The better you get at it in the sim, the better at it you'll be in real life.
 
Blindrage said:
Actually starting on Dec 27th is expands to cover a lot of the Western US if you pay a few more bucks. If you stay on the normal plan you lose SFO as a destination at that time as well. SFO will only be covered for those that upgrade to the new plan.

The new plan add Seattle, Denver, and a few other majors, as well as some minor airports. They are also adding extra smaller airports on a 2 week rotation basis.

See the announcement for more detials:
http://www.pilotedge.net/pages/western-expansion
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Keith - if you're reading this, I would rejoin in a heartbeat if you would add the East Coast (PA, NJ, NY, CT, DC, MA). I've enjoyed using your service, but I've reached a point where I've exhausted the activities I need ATC practice with in the southern california area. In fact, DC would be particularly cool due to the complex flight restrictions.
 
coma24 said:
Hmm...if you can practice radio work, ADM, and basic attitude instrument flying...remind me again why it's not good practice at all?

My experience is vastly different. My mindset when operating the sim on an end to end IFR trip is basically identical to that of flying a real airplane. The workload of single pilot IFR is replicated quite well. The better you get at it in the sim, the better at it you'll be in real life.
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Oh, I forgot About the radios. Coma24 has a good point here op, they are also very good for that.
 
I have a Redbird Jay which is pretty good for the money. Or you can go the home build route and get the Saitek yoke and rudder pedals and Microsoft Flight Simulator X or XPlane for PC. I find both useful for practice and review. Cannot log time but still good.
 
Jim Case said:
Oh, I forgot About the radios. Coma24 has a good point here op, they are also very good for that.
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Just a darn minute!!!! If you're gonna allow someone to cause you to review your opinion, using mere logic, you're not gonna fit in around here!!! LOL! (Totally tongue in cheek...make no mistake!)

Jim
 
nj-pilot said:
Keith - if you're reading this, I would rejoin in a heartbeat if you would add the East Coast (PA, NJ, NY, CT, DC, MA). I've enjoyed using your service, but I've reached a point where I've exhausted the activities I need ATC practice with in the southern california area. In fact, DC would be particularly cool due to the complex flight restrictions.
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It's about a year's worth of development work and then $5k/mth for us to open the doors at even the most basic level. I'm thrilled to know that we have a $19.95/month revenue stream that awaits :)

Kidding aside, I live and fly in NJ (N07, specifically) and disagree that you have to fly in east coast airspace in the sim for it to be of value. An ILS here is the same as an ILS there. The new airspace we're opening up covers 5 ARTCC's (Oakland, Denver, Salt Lake City, Albquerque and Seattle). The weather and terrain of the Rockies and Pacific Northwest is pretty serious. I also flew coast to coast and back last February and it confirmed my suspicion that there's busy airspace, and quiet airspace, there's small towered airports, big towered airports and non-towered airports. The specific geographic location matters little. I've also flown to Florida, Texas, Chicago, and Minneapolis. Once again....nothing new from a procedural standpoint. Other than SFRA's, there just isn't anything special about the east coast.

Don't get me wrong, if we can expand there, we will (probably after opening an operation in Europe), but I still find value today in flying on the network on the west coast. When I jump in my Lancair out of N07, I feel fresh and ready every time.
 
@coma24 I agree that your service provides tremendous value. Appreciate the thoughtful response.
 
I agree that flying is flying. Having airports you are familiar with, or terrain you want to practice is great. But in the end flying is about reading maps, charts, plates, and being able to use the equipment in the plane to follow specific paths and instructions.

I am a new low-time pilot, so I am still getting my chops up and starting to learn the basics of IFR. As soon as I can fly XP-11 without making a fool out of myself I plan to sign up and start practicing using the ATC services. Having trained out of an un-towered airport this is going to help me in a few ways.
 
You guys should move this to a Gamers Forum and talk with the gamers. Home sims are games. You guys logging this time as well? Sigh.
 
Jim Case said:
Flight simming is fun, I enjoy it a lot, but honestly, it's really not good practice at all. It useful to gauge your ADM skills in certain situations like bad weather but that's about it. I like it so i can play as a WW1 Sopwith dolphin pilot and get into dogfights, neither of which I will ever do in real life.
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Maybe. I'm a very, very casual home sim user. I think I've owned a version of MSFS since it's earliest DOS version and maybe used them 30 times total. Just can't seem to get into it (or any gaming for that matter).

But I will disagree with you on utility. An instrument scan, for example, is far more difficult and requires even more attention with no physical feedback. Instrument flight is more about procedures than aircraft control and you can practice those very effectively; even if you use the autopilot you are developing an understanding of how the procedures work and learning how to anticipate the next steps. Pre-flying to a new location can give one a good preview of visual landmarks in context, especially if the airport is tucked away in a hard to find spot. Even done an IFR pre-flight with ATC guidance that ended up identical to the real thing, including ATC keeping me high until pretty close and then telling me to expedite the descent (I was really impressed with that one).

So, even with my limited use, I've found it more practical than fun.

Like most things, what one gets out of it is heavily connected to what one puts into it.
 
How are you guys connecting headsets fot pilotedge? Thanks
 
midlifeflyer said:
Maybe. I'm a very, very casual home sim user. I think I've owned a version of MSFS since it's earliest DOS version and maybe used them 30 times total. Just can't seem to get into it (or any gaming for that matter).

But I will disagree with you on utility. An instrument scan, for example, is far more difficult and requires even more attention with no physical feedback. Instrument flight is more about procedures than aircraft control and you can practice those very effectively; even if you use the autopilot you are developing an understanding of how the procedures work and learning how to anticipate the next steps. Pre-flying to a new location can give one a good preview of visual landmarks in context, especially if the airport is tucked away in a hard to find spot. Even done an IFR pre-flight with ATC guidance that ended up identical to the real thing, including ATC keeping me high until pretty close and then telling me to expedite the descent (I was really impressed with that one).

So, even with my limited use, I've found it more practical than fun.

Like most things, what one gets out of it is heavily connected to what one puts into it.
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Yeah, they are good for radio and navigation training as well
 
LmannyR said:
How are you guys connecting headsets fot pilotedge? Thanks
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Most folks I've talked to aren't using their aviation headsets, they're just using a USB gaming headset or similar.

There are adaptors for aviation headsets to USB, but ick.
 
War Thunder is a great simulator for IFR. In addition to being able to fly in clouds you are able to experience emergencies on a frequent basis. Trying to complete an engine out landing with your wing on fire can be a real challenge. All the time is logable as well.
 
nj-pilot, he was yanking your chain.

Headsets for PilotEdge are no biggie, just do whatever you'd do to make a Skype call.
 
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