Home Defense by Nick

[jesse]

There are few statistics to support this, but I would wager that 80% of the home invasion perps will flee at the sound of a pump shotgun being loaded, another half will run after a near miss, and the rest will bite it on shot 2 or 3.

Sure. But you better damn well not be counting on them running when they hear you pump the shotgun. If you pump it--you are committing to killing the person. If you aren't prepared to do this--do not have a gun at home.

The penetration/ballistics gurus are shooting gel.

Well, would you prefer they shoot people? People use crash dummies as well. Doesn't mean what they do is invalid.

The reality is some 6ft/140 lb guy will take three expandable shots to the abdomen while the 6'3", 240 guy drops like a bag of flour when hit by a FMJ.

Human reaction to gunshot is very unpredictable. Have you ever been really hurt but didn't know it until someone pointed out to you?

Agree it is unpredictable. If the person is bound and determined to stab you with a knife you better hope that you're getting deep penetration else you're going to be getting stabbed.

That's why ethical hunters -- shooting game in very controlled conditions (not in your dark hallway at 3 AM with the smoke alarm blaring in your ear) are very careful about shot placement while using far more powerful rounds than what is found in the typical home defense handgun.

Agree. A handgun really is a ****ty gun. But it is better than nothing.

Forget the gun store gurus -- find a firearm you can handle and consistenly shoot well-- .40, .45, 9mm, 380, 12g, 16g - whatever - and then practice.

Your jumping to conclusions. Your average gun store guy is an idiot. I didn't say **** about buying a certain gun nor did I say anything about caliber.

If you're going to carry a gun for defense you want to put the cards in your favor where possible.

You can get good penetration out of any of the above calibers. You can also get terrible penetration out of any of the above calibers. Frangible ammo is generally just a bad idea in a handgun.

People need to accept and understand: if they can good penetration that is capable of deep wounds against vital organs their bullet will penetrate a wall.

If you can't penetrate some drywall you sure the hell can't get deep enough into a human that is cracked out and bound and determined to kill you.

No ballistic property will make up for sorry shooting.

Agree. You need a good hit and you need penetration. Great shooting isn't going to make up for ammo that goes 1/2" and explodes into nothing.

You're confusing my points by assuming that I'm just talking "gun store guy" and saying 9mm sucks and you aren't a man if you're not packing 45 ACP. All I was saying is that you need penetration and most frangible ammo in a pistol does not give you it.

The shot placement is most important
Penetration is next
Caliber doesn't really matter as much provided you can penetrate. Caliber is worthless if the above doesn't happen.

 

[Anthony]

Claymores. There I said it.

Nothing wrong with a revolver for home defense. Like others, I prefer a semi auto, but whatever floats your boat. Dogs are great too, especially for an early warning system and deterrent.

 

[dmccormack]

Sure. But you better damn well not be counting on them running when they hear you pump the shotgun. If you pump it--you are committing to killing the person. If you aren't prepared to do this--do not have a gun at home.

Who said that?

I'd take it a step further. If you haven't gamed through the situations and conditions under which you will and won't shoot before the occasion arises, you're dead.

There's a reason why the Amry does MOUT training -- lot's of shoot/n-shoot scenarios long before you're in the actual situation.

Check SLA Marshall's book Men under Fire -- humans just aren't very good at killing other humans unless they've been trained to do so.

Well, would you prefer they shoot people? People use crash dummies as well. Doesn't mean what they do is invalid.

The correlation between gel penetration and gunfight efficacy is so tenuous I'm not alone in suggesting that it is a single, hardly conclusive data point and should be treated as such.

Agree it is unpredictable. If the person is bound and determined to stab you with a knife you better hope that you're getting deep penetration else you're going to be getting stabbed..

Within 10 feet you're better off with a knife than a handgun -- acquiring the skillset takes about the same amount of time.

Agree. A handgun really is a ****ty gun. But it is better than nothing..

"A handgun is what you use to fight your way to your long gun." Col J. Cooper

Your jumping to conclusions. Your average gun store guy is an idiot. I didn't say **** about buying a certain gun nor did I say anything about caliber.

I have the mat, but you're assuming my comments were directed to you -- they weren't.

If you're going to carry a gun for defense you want to put the cards in your favor where possible.

You can get good penetration out of any of the above calibers. You can also get terrible penetration out of any of the above calibers. Frangible ammo is generally just a bad idea in a handgun.

People need to accept and understand: if they can good penetration that is capable of deep wounds against vital organs their bullet will penetrate a wall.

If you can't penetrate some drywall you sure the hell can't get deep enough into a human that is cracked out and bound and determined to kill you.



Agree. You need a good hit and you need penetration. Great shooting isn't going to make up for ammo that goes 1/2" and explodes into nothing.

You're confusing my points by assuming that I'm just talking "gun store guy" and saying 9mm sucks and you aren't a man if you're not packing 45 ACP. All I was saying is that you need penetration and most frangible ammo in a pistol does not give you it.

The shot placement is most important
Penetration is next
Caliber doesn't really matter as much provided you can penetrate. Caliber is worthless if the above doesn't happen.

We're in violent agreement.

 

[steingar]

Damn I feel sorry for you guys. You must live in utter war zones to need all that firepower. Glad I live someplace civilized.

 

[jsstevens]

+500

If it doesn't feel good, you won't shoot it well. There are two things you should never buy without handling it first: cameras and firearms.

And guitars. But that's another thread...

 

[dmccormack]

Damn I feel sorry for you guys. You must live in utter war zones to need all that firepower. Glad I live someplace civilized.

What firepower?

A S-A 9mm and 12g trap shotgun upstairs is it.

.30-06 hunting rifle is not a good home defense option.

 

[Tom-D]

Yep.

We have a Yellow Lab -- wouldn't hurt a bug.

Yet his bark is scary loud.

If he barks in the middle of the night, I'm up.

So far all he's spotted is two deer on our back deck.

Bobbi barks softly, and carries big teeth.

 

[SkyHog]

Damn I feel sorry for you guys. You must live in utter war zones to need all that firepower. Glad I live someplace civilized.

Ever been to Albuquerque?

BTW, there was a plea on TV to stop calling our War Zone the "War Zone." lol. Lovely.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Damn I feel sorry for you guys. You must live in utter war zones to need all that firepower. Glad I live someplace civilized.

I got my wife a taser for xmas, not because she'll ever need it, but because it gives her peace of mind.

 

[jesse]

I got my wife a taser for xmas, not because she'll ever need it, but because it gives her peace of mind.

..and if she doesn't--oh well.

But if she does, and it is effective, you probably won't regret buying it.

 

[wbarnhill]

..and if she doesn't--oh well, it could always spice up the bedroom.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[CJones]

1 shot from a 12 gauge 00 buck hits the perp with 9, 30 cal balls, that 12 gauge pump carries 5 shots. do the math..

I prefer swapping some of the lead shot for rock salt. It's like the gift that keeps on giving. The initial blow gives the perp the "Oh crap, I'm shot!" and run feeling, but a little later, once that salt starts seeping into the wounds, it reminds them all over again what a horrible person they are. Usually only works in the summer, though, as rock salt doesn't have a lot of penetration power for heavy clothing.

 

[Ted]

If he barks in the middle of the night, I'm up.

So far all he's spotted is two deer on our back deck.

Yeah, I have to keep track of mine, he'll move the curtains, stick his head looking out the window, and when he sees the deer will start jumping at the window and barking. This is remarkably annoying at 3 AM.

 

[kevin47881]

I got my wife a taser for xmas, not because she'll ever need it, but because it gives her peace of mind.

Now you are obligated to get her something nice for her birthday, valentines day, anniversary, etc. unless you want her to test the taser.

 

[jmaynard]

Damn I feel sorry for you guys. You must live in utter war zones to need all that firepower. Glad I live someplace civilized.

Do you think you're immune to violent crime?

 

[michael Killacky]

I got my wife a taser for xmas, not because she'll ever need it, but because it gives her peace of mind.

You've got a lot more heart than I do. The last thing in the world I would give the lady that thought marrying me was a good idea, would be a freakin' TASER!!!!!

I'd be scared to death to go to another late-night retirement party. Stumble in at 3:00 a.m. and catch 50,000 volts only to have her say later "Gee, honey, I thought you were a burglar."

 

[RogerT]

HK USP 9mm auto .. and my trusty AR-15. Welcome, Mr Burglar.

 

[steingar]

Do you think you're immune to violent crime?

Immune, no. But it is so rare here that I don't see the need for expensive high caliber firearms for home defense the way you fellows do.

 

[CJones]

Immune, no. But it is so rare here that I don't see the need for expensive high caliber firearms for home defense the way you fellows do.

My philosophy is: Always carry a toolbox on long car trips so you will be sure that you DON'T need to use the toolbox. If you don't have one, you will find a way to need it.

Same applies to home defense. I don't keep a gun handy so I can use it, I keep one handy so I will be sure to never NEED to use it.

 

[Greebo]

Please bear the Spin Zone policy in mind. If this thread gets too "charged" on this topic, the MC policy is to delete posts and sanction those involved, not move the thread.

Nick: Nice weapon, how's it shoot? Personally I prefer clip based magazines.

 

[Greebo]

Most autos man it very difficult for it to bite you,near impossible with mine.

For defense I prefer a reliable auto with no manual safety chambered and cocked. You get more rounds, a gun ready for instant action, and that ever important consistant trigger pull.
That said revolvers are just cool

Most "auto"s are illegal. I think you mean "semi"

 

[Greebo]

You will be sorely disappointed, as a zombie cannot be stopped with a firearm.* I prefer a chainsaw if there's room. For close quarters such as a shower, a machete or even a crowbar is better than a Glock.

*Source

Untrue. Shotguns are effective against zombies. The book is wrong.

 

[dmccormack]

Please bear the Spin Zone policy in mind. If this thread gets too "charged" on this topic, the MC policy is to delete posts and sanction those involved, not move the thread.

OK, I give up....

There's something "charged" in this thread so far?



This is the most civil exchange on firearms I've ever seen, period.

 

[Anthony]

Damn I feel sorry for you guys. You must live in utter war zones to need all that firepower. Glad I live someplace civilized.

I think you'll find most of us live in "civilized" places. However, that's where violent criminals go to steal stuff as that's where the good stuff is. Just because you may live in an affluent neighborhood doesn't mean burglary or home invasion is not a possibilty.

 

[Greebo]

OK, I give up....

There's something "charged" in this thread so far?



This is the most civil exchange on firearms I've ever seen, period.

No, if there *were* something too charged, action would already have been taken.

The thread did seem to me to be starting to head into debate territory, and it takes about 0.8 seconds for a gun control thread to go from "civil debate" to "heated argument" in my experience.

So I felt a little "course correction" now would be better than launching the fighter jets later.

 

[dmccormack]

No, if there *were* something too charged, action would already have been taken.

The thread did seem to me to be starting to head into debate territory, and it takes about 0.8 seconds for a gun control thread to go from "civil debate" to "heated argument" in my experience.

So I felt a little "course correction" now would be better than launching the fighter jets later.

Point taken.

So if I'm right and everyone else is wrong.....

Where's the "debate?"

 

[Greebo]

Point taken.

So if I'm right and everyone else is wrong.....

Where's the "debate?"

I think its over here next to the "permaban button"...

 

[dmccormack]

I think its over here next to the "permaban button"...

That just ain't right....

 

[SkyHog]

Nick: Nice weapon, how's it shoot? Personally I prefer clip based magazines.

Unfortunately, I cannot say yet. I bought it on Election day, was running ragged getting to the people before/after, and have been busy with work since.

Hopefully this weekend! Clip fed is nice, if you can save the web of your hand.

 

[Greebo]

Unfortunately, I cannot say yet. I bought it on Election day, was running ragged getting to the people before/after, and have been busy with work since.

Hopefully this weekend! Clip fed is nice, if you can save the web of your hand.

I've never had a problem with my 9mm, but then, I know how to hold a weapon properly.

 

[dmccormack]

Unfortunately, I cannot say yet. I bought it on Election day, was running ragged getting to the people before/after, and have been busy with work since.

Hopefully this weekend! Clip fed is nice, if you can save the web of your hand.

What are you shooting that's eating the web??

 

[Anthony]

What are you shooting that's eating the web??

Yeah really.

 

[jmaynard]

Yeah really.

I'm gonna have to take Nick out shooting some time just to see how he's managing to hurt himself.

 

[steingar]

My philosophy is: Always carry a toolbox on long car trips so you will be sure that you DON'T need to use the toolbox. If you don't have one, you will find a way to need it.

Same applies to home defense. I don't keep a gun handy so I can use it, I keep one handy so I will be sure to never NEED to use it.

Sure, I carry a tiny little emergency tool kit. I don't carry my entire tool collection, compressor, drill press etc. Sure, I might need them. but I can always calla mechanic if its really that bad.

 

[jmaynard]

Sure, I carry a tiny little emergency tool kit. I don't carry my entire tool collection, compressor, drill press etc. Sure, I might need them. but I can always calla mechanic if its really that bad.

You can't call the cops to fix your problem, though, if you need a gun and don't have it. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. All they can do is clean up the mess afterwards.

BTW, it's well settled law that the police do not have a duty to protect any individual citizen. None. If you call and they don't come in time to save you, they're held completely harmless and blameless. There are cases on record where the cops didn't come for hours while women were being repeatedly raped and tortured. They were not held the tiniest bit liable.

The cops won't protect you. Either you protect yourself, or you're not protected.

 

[Greebo]

Jay, I would say, "The cops *can't* protect you". Most cops, if they have the opportunity, WILL protect you.

But they simply cannot be there to protect everyone. Their job is mostly reactive not proactive.

 

[jesse]

Most "auto"s are illegal. I think you mean "semi"

Actually-- the term generally replies to "semi automatic". Automatic pistol, auto pistol, autoloader, self-loading pistol, etc are terms you'll see in the gun word that refer to a "semi automatic self loading pistol".

So if you see "auto pistol", which is in the marketing material for many guns, don't think fully automatic pistol. Think auto-loading pistol.

 

[SkyHog]

Jay, I would say, "The cops *can't* protect you". Most cops, if they have the opportunity, WILL protect you.

But they simply cannot be there to protect everyone. Their job is mostly reactive not proactive.

True - which leads to my other thread comment about police wasting their time with speeders, illegal lane changers, and other nonsense.

I once had a police officer tell me in case of intrusion to shoot first and call the police after. This was not a "hypothetical situation" either, we were discussing a real possible upcoming intrusion.

Thank god for Guns.

 

[jesse]

Immune, no. But it is so rare here that I don't see the need for expensive high caliber firearms for home defense the way you fellows do.

Very few of us have talked about "expensive high caliber firearms".

 

[dmccormack]

Actually-- the term generally replies to "semi automatic". Automatic pistol, auto pistol, autoloader, self-loading pistol, etc are terms you'll see in the gun word that refer to a "semi automatic self loading pistol".

So if you see "auto pistol", which is in the marketing material for many guns, don't think fully automatic pistol.

In the right hands, anything is fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o